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This is how Seattle dominated Denver’s offense

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  • #16
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    It's easy for a defensive front to look good if all they need to do is rush the passer. The best O-Linemen are going to look bad if you ask them to drop back into pass protection and maintain the pocket for an immobile QB.

    Even Cliff Avril isn't going to look so perky after he's been earholed a few times. What is needed is an understanding of the effect a balanced offense has on a defense.

    Defenses are coached to stop the run first. They can tell from the first step of the O-Line if it's run/PAP or Pass/draw. When an offense is balanced and half the pass attempts are PAP, three out of every four plays look look like run.

    Denver has the personnel to run a series-based rushing attack to compliment the existing passing attack. Whether or not they have the commitment and/or expertise remains to be seen. It's on Gase and Manning. Being 60/40 pass needs to be rethought and reworked.
    OK, then that begs the question....

    Why aren't we doing that? Is it Manning? Is it the coaching staff? Is it the coaching staff recognizing a deficiency to do those things as opposed to being reliant on Manning? There must be a reason for it, right?

    Is it just hubris?

    Either way, it's a problem, don't you think?
    sigpic

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    • #17
      32 offense plays in first half

      here are the runs

      (Shotgun) K.Moreno left tackle to DEN 38 for 3 yards

      (No Huddle, Shotgun) K.Moreno left end to DEN 27 for 2 yards (C.Clemons, C.McDonald). FUMBLES (C.Clemons), recovered by DEN-Z.Beadles at DEN 23. Z.Beadles to DEN 23 for no gain (E.Thomas). Officially, a rush for -2 yards.

      (Shotgun) K.Moreno right tackle to DEN 30 for 5 yards

      (No Huddle, Shotgun) K.Moreno left guard to DEN 39 for 2 yards

      (Shotgun) M.Ball up the middle to SEA 34 for no gain

      (No Huddle, Shotgun) M.Ball left guard to SEA 32 for 2 yards

      (No Huddle, Shotgun) K.Moreno left guard to SEA 35 for 9 yards

      7 plays run
      24 passing plays

      I do think the first play of the game may have been a run but not sure.

      I do not know how realistic it is to expect this but I have read the Hawks did not use their run stopping DL and used allot of pass rushing DL players. Is it realistic to expect our coaches to notice this by the 2nd qtr and start running the ball more? I mean there are a bunch of coaches sitting on the sidelines and a bunch of other people I know they doing other things but allot of times it seems they just watching the game...if I were the coach I would have someone attempting to watch patterns if possible.

      Someone may say with the safety, Moreno fumble and two interceptions everyone was shocked on the sideline and just trying to get their wits back (kind of reminds me of when Fox ran the clock out to overtime in the Balt playoff loss) but I would counter if they can not do their jobs when they are needed the most may want to get someone who can
      Last edited by Hadez; 02-22-2014, 09:43 PM.
      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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      • #18
        Originally posted by kishzilla View Post
        OK, then that begs the question....

        Why aren't we doing that? Is it Manning? Is it the coaching staff? Is it the coaching staff recognizing a deficiency to do those things as opposed to being reliant on Manning? There must be a reason for it, right?

        Is it just hubris?



        Either way, it's a problem, don't you think?
        Who prepares the game plan and calls the plays?

        I've said it before on many occasions, it's on Gase and Manning.
        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Hadez View Post
          I do think the first play of the game may have been a run but not sure.
          When Manny snapped the ball, the O-Line took zone steps right.
          "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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          • #20
            i think the broncos need to move Clark to RT and Franklin to OG and let beadles go in the fa market
            sigpic
            oakland raders gm
            latavis murray trade bait

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Hadez View Post
              1. Avril tore up Franklin in 2011 and everyone put it on Tebow....just curious is it still Tebow's fault this time?

              2. Hawks pass rush is so good because they rotate allot of guys and keep the legs fresh...at no point did I see u doing a pure hurry up trying to keep their fresh legs on the sideline and limit their strength.

              We have to change our OL and gameplanning or if we see them again I do not think things will be any different.
              OL might change but gameplanning? really? With Dan Reeves version 2 we are going to be the same ole team we always put out there...

              Unless you make changes at the top, expect to see the same old weak team putting up starwars numbers in the regular season but getting dominated in the post season.

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              • #22
                samparnell you raise a good point about a running/series based offense, but it should be noted that Peyton Manning has never once operated this way in his career. With the exception of 1999, manning has thrown it more than he has handed the ball off, and for his career he has thrown on 57% of his offensive snaps.

                To say doing such might have had a different outcome in a game such as the SB, but IMO would put us on the losing end of atleast 2 games (@ Dallas, @ KC), hypothetically speaking.

                Along with that is the fact that even if we have the ability to run the ball, when comes down to which one are we better built for, it is to pass the ball by a long shot. To run the ball more than to pass the ball would not be playing to our actual strength, it would just be a scheme change that would hopefully work out better, but it only would in some cases (VS Seattle, yes, but @ Dallas, @ KC, VS San Diego, no).

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by jakemillar View Post
                  samparnell you raise a good point about a running/series based offense, but it should be noted that Peyton Manning has never once operated this way in his career. With the exception of 1999, manning has thrown it more than he has handed the ball off, and for his career he has thrown on 57% of his offensive snaps.

                  To say doing such might have had a different outcome in a game such as the SB, but IMO would put us on the losing end of atleast 2 games (@ Dallas, @ KC), hypothetically speaking.

                  Along with that is the fact that even if we have the ability to run the ball, when comes down to which one are we better built for, it is to pass the ball by a long shot. To run the ball more than to pass the ball would not be playing to our actual strength, it would just be a scheme change that would hopefully work out better, but it only would in some cases (VS Seattle, yes, but @ Dallas, @ KC, VS San Diego, no).
                  Sure. 2013 was based on passing as Denver was 60/40. There were glimpses in the late season/playoffs hinting that the Super Bowl game plan could have been more balanced. When the first snap went into the EZ, the whole O-Line was taking zone steps right.

                  I think Manning and Gase flipped out and tried to pass their way out of a hole. Running the ball takes a lot of patience, determination and commitment. The Broncos weren't a run first team. They tried to stay in the game in a way that played into Seattle's game plan and was worsened by turnovers. The ball didn't bounce their way either which happens.

                  No matter how well a football team does, the offseason is the time for self-evaluation. If the Broncos decide to become more balanced offensively, they have most of the pieces in place to do it personnel-wise.

                  The big question is will Gase and Manning seek help within and outside the staff to revamp the rushing attack and make it equal with the passing attack? Then, can Manning use his great football mind to call a balanced game?

                  There is room in three receiver/single back formations to run a series-based rushing attack. Gase participated in the 2011 offense which, while not series-based, contained components which could be useful in running the ball from formations using 11 personnel. One of those is the unbalanced line with tandem tackles; another is the use of a Wing.

                  The Super Bowl is behind us. It will be interesting to see how things go in the future.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                  • #24
                    I think you mentioned the key there: is Manning capable of sticking with a balanced game with the football mind he has?

                    I don't think it helps him to do that when a young Adam Gase wants to go balls to the wall, every game with an aerial show. It is almost as if Gase is unknowingly egging Manning on to be less and less patient and just put the pedal to the floor, but this most recently is what hurt us.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jakemillar View Post
                      I think you mentioned the key there: is Manning capable of sticking with a balanced game with the football mind he has?

                      I don't think it helps him to do that when a young Adam Gase wants to go balls to the wall, every game with an aerial show. It is almost as if Gase is unknowingly egging Manning on to be less and less patient and just put the pedal to the floor, but this most recently is what hurt us.
                      After the NE regular season game in which we ran the ball so well but lost PM said after that he did not think this offense could find its rhythm in that game because we ran the ball so much.

                      That not only tells me we will never have a balanced attack...or run first attack....it tells every other DC and HC we will face we will never have a run first offense or balanced attack
                      Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                        After the NE regular season game in which we ran the ball so well but lost PM said after that he did not think this offense could find its rhythm in that game because we ran the ball so much.

                        That not only tells me we will never have a balanced attack...or run first attack....it tells every other DC and HC we will face we will never have a run first offense or balanced attack
                        That very well could be. Manning uses the play clock to look the D over and make a call. He's the guy. Does he really require rhythm to throw effectively?

                        One might think that an effective rushing attack would help the passing attack. Maybe not with Manning. He may not be wired that way.

                        All the classic series-based rushing attacks require patience. It may be close to being a lost art. Peyton may not have the patience required to work it.

                        On the other hand, it is possible to have a viable rushing attack from formations using 11 personnel. The possibility exists, but does the will and commitment?
                        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                          That very well could be. Manning uses the play clock to look the D over and make a call. He's the guy. Does he really require rhythm to throw effectively?

                          One might think that an effective rushing attack would help the passing attack. Maybe not with Manning. He may not be wired that way.

                          All the classic series-based rushing attacks require patience. It may be close to being a lost art. Peyton may not have the patience required to work it.

                          On the other hand, it is possible to have a viable rushing attack from formations using 11 personnel. The possibility exists, but does the will and commitment?
                          I agree with you concepts btw

                          Just am not sure if we have the people to make it happen.

                          If you PM and you done everything he has who is going to convince you to do things differently...Fox...Gase...unless we give him someone just as qualified as him I am not sure if he will hear enough to change the stripes he has worn his entire life.

                          Maybe Elway could...I dunno man
                          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                            I agree with you concepts btw

                            Just am not sure if we have the people to make it happen.

                            If you PM and you done everything he has who is going to convince you to do things differently...Fox...Gase...unless we give him someone just as qualified as him I am not sure if he will hear enough to change the stripes he has worn his entire life.

                            Maybe Elway could...I dunno man
                            Football changes over time. In the mid-Nineties, we played teams that ran Wing-T, Power I, Wishbone, Split Backs Veer, Option I, Single Wing. In 2000, we lost in the semi-finals to a Spread Option team. When I quit coaching in 2006, everyone was running some kind of spread offense including us.

                            There are very few college teams that use Fullbacks any more. There are few college teams that use a run heavy offense. Seeing Auburn's offense in the "National Championship Game" was interesting. Gus Malzahn quoted Tubby Raymond's book as a big influence. Now, The Delaware Wing-T: An Order of Football is selling on Amazon for over $800. That's due to supply and demand. So, maybe run oriented offenses will make a comeback at the college and HS levels.

                            The last series-based rushing attack I recall seeing in the NFL was the Zone Series used by the Broncos under Shanahan/Gibbs. The problem with it is that it's five plays which is why the Broncos currently use both angle and zone. Angle blocking can outnumber the D at POA while zone slides laterally so the RB can find a hole. Lombardi's "run to daylight" saying/concept was based on Veer/Zone Blocks which he called do-dad blocking.

                            The personnel is currently available to run the ball well. LG is an issue which will be settled soon. The right side of the line is great at down blocking which is the basis of power football. Unbalanced formations with 11 personnel can produce a viable rushing attack.

                            What is needed is the will, expertise, commitment and patience to do it.
                            Last edited by samparnell; 02-27-2014, 12:27 PM.
                            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                            • #29
                              Another hindrance to that idea sam IMO is the amount of shotgun we use with PM, which is why I believe we saw the pistol implemented this year.

                              Many lump the Pistol formation in with only athletic QBs who use the read-option, but in the simplest form it allows the QB to still have that space from center to read the defense, along with the RBs ability to run "down-hill" via the lines ability to still play its gaps as if it were I-Form/Singleback formation and either zone block or angle block.

                              This to me is another untouched element of our offense that when the heir apparent, whether that be Oz or other, can use to their advantage providing they are more athletic then Manning (Luck, Rodgers, Wilson etc.) Not only does the Pistol continue to add both benefits of singleback and shotgun formations, but inadvertently the defenses respect for that allows an athletic QB to further take advantage of the exploits of the formation.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jakemillar View Post
                                Another hindrance to that idea sam IMO is the amount of shotgun we use with PM, which is why I believe we saw the pistol implemented this year.

                                Many lump the Pistol formation in with only athletic QBs who use the read-option, but in the simplest form it allows the QB to still have that space from center to read the defense, along with the RBs ability to run "down-hill" via the lines ability to still play its gaps as if it were I-Form/Singleback formation and either zone block or angle block.

                                This to me is another untouched element of our offense that when the heir apparent, whether that be Oz or other, can use to their advantage providing they are more athletic then Manning (Luck, Rodgers, Wilson etc.) Not only does the Pistol continue to add both benefits of singleback and shotgun formations, but inadvertently the defenses respect for that allows an athletic QB to further take advantage of the exploits of the formation.
                                That's an excellent point. The base rushing element of the Pistol is derived from Veer and Wing-T (Trap, Sweep, Counter, Boot). It can be run with or without a mobile QB.
                                "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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