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  • fraguela09
    replied
    Originally posted by Awesomo 2000 View Post
    I've been noticing this problem with our team since way back when Cutler first started games for us. Late season meltdowns and playoff chokes started becoming more consistent since then. It also spans 3 different coaches and several roster changes, so it makes you wonder how attitudes like that continue, even through different tenures.

    Has the cancer set in and taken root, since back when Cutler took over? Do players catch this attitude from others and continue it, or are we just bringing in more bad apples each year or two, to allow the problem to go on?

    This obviously shows that Manning didn't "start" this problem, but his soft, lack of fight-ness has been present throughout his career (in the postseason), also with the colts. So, although he almost certainly isn't the cause of our struggles lately, he surely isn't the solution, either.

    There's a big fat can of worms that needs to be opened, and we need to find out where this problem is coming from. I'm not a fan of players yapping to the media, but names need to be named, here. Does fixing it require a gutting of the team, or can we just get rid of a few bad apples bringing down the rest of the guys?

    New coaching is a good start, but players have their own responsibilities too, and coaches don't directly affect the conversations they're having, amongst themselves.
    I think when Shanny was fired, and Bowlen took a back seat b/c of the illness, and then the front office shocked when pop/son (Goodman) left town... It left this organization in the hands of inexperienced novices... Elway is just now cleaning up that mess, installing leadership and accountability, which means (I believe) moving forward... the locker room will straighten out and reflect this.

    Fox was a stopgap... while the process was transitioning from players running wild, to player friendly system, and now we return to top-down control Fall in line or your job is at risk. Elway is the Boss... Kubiak the HC. We have youth who are hungry (and Harris and CJ Anderson should be god leaders moving forward).

    I think VON has let us down b/c he doesn't seem to be the leader we hoped he would become. Ware is a strong presence... which helps.

    To me, we will find out a lot about what the thinking is internally about the toughness and dedication of JT & DT, based on our effort to retain their services. To me, after watching Edelman and Gronk... I'm a little disappointed in DT and JT.

    Leave a comment:


  • Awesomo 2000
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Which is why it pisses me off that people want to put all the blame on Manning for this soft, lack of fight, attitude. What people are speaking about was happening before Manning got here.
    I've been noticing this problem with our team since way back when Cutler first started games for us. Late season meltdowns and playoff chokes started becoming more consistent since then. It also spans 3 different coaches and several roster changes, so it makes you wonder how attitudes like that continue, even through different tenures.

    Has the cancer set in and taken root, since back when Cutler took over? Do players catch this attitude from others and continue it, or are we just bringing in more bad apples each year or two, to allow the problem to go on?

    This obviously shows that Manning didn't "start" this problem, but his soft, lack of fight-ness has been present throughout his career (in the postseason), also with the colts. So, although he almost certainly isn't the cause of our struggles lately, he surely isn't the solution, either.

    There's a big fat can of worms that needs to be opened, and we need to find out where this problem is coming from. I'm not a fan of players yapping to the media, but names need to be named, here. Does fixing it require a gutting of the team, or can we just get rid of a few bad apples bringing down the rest of the guys?

    New coaching is a good start, but players have their own responsibilities too, and coaches don't directly affect the conversations they're having, amongst themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • fraguela09
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Which is why it pisses me off that people want to put all the blame on Manning for this soft, lack of fight, attitude. What people are speaking about was happening before Manning got here.
    People still blame loss vs BAL in 2012 on Manning. Sure, it was his fault Moore allowed the Holy Flacco, just like Brady was responsible for Butler stealing the SB last night.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoslover115
    replied
    Originally posted by flosstein View Post
    I believe u are correct with that. I think it was Champ and DT that put that out there. And you're totally right. How do you go from literally shredding a team like the Steelers, the game going to OT was due to some of the worst ref'ing EVER, to what we saw the next week? Sure we can blame Tebow for not "being a real QB", but even with a "real QB" the results in NE have been the exact same! The team looks lost, inept, and under-prepared. The more that happens during a season or during a coaches tenure, you have to ask some serious questions.

    We are starting to see the bigger picture as all the mystery pieces start to clear up. And the changes that were/will be made will be very telling in the next few weeks.
    Which is why it pisses me off that people want to put all the blame on Manning for this soft, lack of fight, attitude. What people are speaking about was happening before Manning got here.

    Leave a comment:


  • flosstein
    replied
    Originally posted by Awesomo 2000 View Post
    Don't forget the 2011 loss at New England. That team got throttled, top to bottom, every which way. They didn't even look like they belonged on a football field. Didn't a player come out after that game, and mention a similar mentality, like what DT said? I thought I remembered Champ saying something, but I can't place it exactly.

    The coach is the greatest common factor, but you have to wonder about what specific players are involved, and how that attitude can carry over from season to season.
    I believe u are correct with that. I think it was Champ and DT that put that out there. And you're totally right. How do you go from literally shredding a team like the Steelers, the game going to OT was due to some of the worst ref'ing EVER, to what we saw the next week? Sure we can blame Tebow for not "being a real QB", but even with a "real QB" the results in NE have been the exact same! The team looks lost, inept, and under-prepared. The more that happens during a season or during a coaches tenure, you have to ask some serious questions.

    We are starting to see the bigger picture as all the mystery pieces start to clear up. And the changes that were/will be made will be very telling in the next few weeks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Awesomo 2000
    replied
    Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
    It sounds like the Bal "collapse" the night before sapped their will and doomed this team.

    I bet if BAL wins, we wax Indy.

    I think some of these guys knew they had no shot winning in NE, so they laid an egg vs Colts. Not so much they looked beyond Indy...

    That was the case all 3 Januarys under Fox. Team too cocksure vs BAL and Indy... Stunned twice at home. Then they weren't prepared for SEA. At least DEN grew from that terrible that Jax loss in 1996.

    Ultimately, these are professional athletes making millions... If they can't get themselves up for a post season game...? Geez, I think about letting them walk.

    Coaches win/lose on their players and execution. Scheme does play a large part too.

    This is exactly what Elway was talking about.
    Don't forget the 2011 loss at New England. That team got throttled, top to bottom, every which way. They didn't even look like they belonged on a football field. Didn't a player come out after that game, and mention a similar mentality, like what DT said? I thought I remembered Champ saying something, but I can't place it exactly.

    The coach is the greatest common factor, but you have to wonder about what specific players are involved, and how that attitude can carry over from season to season.

    Leave a comment:


  • fraguela09
    replied
    Originally posted by flosstein View Post
    Which is a serious problem. Why would the players feel they have no shot? That shows some serious locker room and coaching issues.

    But I don't think they were "cocksure" this past game. I'll give u that in 2012 all day. This team was defeated from week 1. And it gives some serious credibility to the rumors that Elway was gonna fire Fox after the SB. Though we finished 12-4, this season played more like a team with a lame duck coach than a team with SB aspirations.
    It was actually Fox who leaked that story bc he was preparing his exit, just like JDR and Gase who were looking for jobs... Hard to develop schemes with those coaches... It their focus was elsewhere... Then so goes the players' focus.

    Ive never seen that before... A HC leaking on gameday he will be available... "If" team lost. So much for a win one for the gipper inspirational speech, huh.

    Leave a comment:


  • flosstein
    replied
    Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
    It sounds like the Bal "collapse" the night before sapped their will and doomed this team.

    I bet if BAL wins, we wax Indy.

    I think some of these guys knew they had no shot winning in NE, so they laid an egg vs Colts. Not so much they looked beyond Indy...

    That was the case all 3 Januarys under Fox. Team too cocksure vs BAL and Indy... Stunned twice at home. Then they weren't prepared for SEA. At least DEN grew from that terrible that Jax loss in 1996.
    Which is a serious problem. Why would the players feel they have no shot? That shows some serious locker room and coaching issues.

    But I don't think they were "cocksure" this past game. I'll give u that in 2012 all day. This team was defeated from week 1. And it gives some serious credibility to the rumors that Elway was gonna fire Fox after the SB. Though we finished 12-4, this season played more like a team with a lame duck coach than a team with SB aspirations.

    Leave a comment:


  • fraguela09
    replied
    It sounds like the Bal "collapse" the night before sapped their will and doomed this team.

    I bet if BAL wins, we wax Indy.

    I think some of these guys knew they had no shot winning in NE, so they laid an egg vs Colts. Not so much they looked beyond Indy...

    That was the case all 3 Januarys under Fox. Team too cocksure vs BAL and Indy... Stunned twice at home. Then they weren't prepared for SEA. At least DEN grew from that terrible that Jax loss in 1996.

    Ultimately, these are professional athletes making millions... If they can't get themselves up for a post season game...? Geez, I think about letting them walk.

    Coaches win/lose on their players and execution. Scheme does play a large part too.

    This is exactly what Elway was talking about.
    Last edited by fraguela09; 02-01-2015, 06:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • flosstein
    replied
    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    What does it say about the veterans of the locker room, let alone DT himself? That some players thought it was even okay to say this, and to say it and be known? And for DT to accept it?
    That's a good question, but not fare to point at any one person. This isn't the movies and like I said, when grown men make up their mind and opinions, some "rah-rah" speech isn't going to change that. His points have been totally missed by so many in this thread already because "it's cool to hate DT" season. All of a sudden he's soft, lazy, etc...... But if you really dig into what he's saying, you see that it's deeper than this one game. He's leading into an issue that's been brewing for some time. It sounds like they had a locker room divided.

    Now what caused that division is subject for speculation and debate. But we all saw that this team didn't play like a "team" all year. And if u dig into Harris' frustrated statements after the game, you can start to piece the puzzle together that there were issues betweent coaching and players and players and players.

    Leave a comment:


  • one_bad_55
    replied
    Originally posted by broncoslover115 View Post
    Completely agree. I was thinking about that last night and was wondering why he would say this publicly. It actually speaks kind of poorly of him I think. I mean, DT is a team captain, is he not? Why would a team captain not attempt to first address this attitude, number one, and then why would a team captain reveal this to the media?

    Some might say he's just being honest but I think this is something a team would want to keep in the locker room.

    This is the 2nd time he's revealed something I think the team might have wanted to keep something to themselves. That being that they practiced keep away of the ball if Manning broke the record. While not all that serious of an issue, I think it kind of embarrassed Manning or it was misunderstood. I think Manning said it was a joke and he didn't think they'd do it, but it did create somewhat of a negative image.
    I don't think DT is the sharpest crayon in the box. I have a feeling he spoke before he thought about what impact his words would have on the team, players, and coaches.

    I still personally believe it is the coaches fault for not addressing these issues and for coaching an attitude of not to lose instead of coaching to win. There is not an NFL team out there that we should not be able to compete with and to fail as bad as we did this year is pathetic and if it is the players they need to be gone and we already know what happened to the coaches.

    We need a coach that instills confidence in our players so this kind of things don't happen. I don't think the players were confident in what the coaches were doing and felt they couldn't win at the highest levels.

    That is the difference between the Seahags, Patriots, Packers, etc. They know they can win and they have a chip on their shoulders and if you want to beat them you are going to have to knock that chip off. They do not defeat themselves mentally like our team has/does.

    I am so glad we are getting almost all new coaches. I am really scared about moving our TE coach to the line coach especially when that is where we need some serious help.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncoslover115
    replied
    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    What does it say about the veterans of the locker room, let alone DT himself? That some players thought it was even okay to say this, and to say it and be known? And for DT to accept it?
    Completely agree. I was thinking about that last night and was wondering why he would say this publicly. It actually speaks kind of poorly of him I think. I mean, DT is a team captain, is he not? Why would a team captain not attempt to first address this attitude, number one, and then why would a team captain reveal this to the media?

    Some might say he's just being honest but I think this is something a team would want to keep in the locker room.

    This is the 2nd time he's revealed something I think the team might have wanted to keep something to themselves. That being that they practiced keep away of the ball if Manning broke the record. While not all that serious of an issue, I think it kind of embarrassed Manning or it was misunderstood. I think Manning said it was a joke and he didn't think they'd do it, but it did create somewhat of a negative image.

    Leave a comment:


  • CoryWinget81
    replied
    What does it say about the veterans of the locker room, let alone DT himself? That some players thought it was even okay to say this, and to say it and be known? And for DT to accept it?

    Leave a comment:


  • ArchAngel
    replied
    It wouldve been nice if some of the veterans in the locker room, sensing this disconnect or attitude by some, had called a players only meeting to address that problem. This team seems to be lacking that type of leader; a Shannon Sharpe, Romanowski or Tom Jackson type.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoSynapses
    replied
    Originally posted by flosstein View Post
    Still missing the point. It wasn't about what happened IN THE GAME. His comments were about players attitudes BEFOR THE GAME. That's a big difference. A guy can be totally focused and have a "bad day". But when a portion of the team is somewhere else b4 the game, the results will never be good. and that's what he was saying. That a large faction of the team had already checked out before this game. So what happened really wasn't that surprising to some, like DT, who knew guys weren't focused on the task in days leading up.

    And u can recite all the "being a leader" quotes and talk all u want, but it's very hard to change the minds of grown men who have already checked out.
    Agree, it's crucial to recognize this is happening early and redirect this negative mindset while you still can. That is one role of a good coach, in particular, a head coach. Team mindset is something they are supposed to manage.

    Guess it has become more clear why they were fired.

    Leave a comment:

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