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The draft we could have had

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  • #46
    Originally posted by myoung
    It is ridiculous to look at how few of these players are still on our team. Very poor drafting on our side. If you want to have fun take a look at the Eagles, Patriots, and Ravens just to compare. I would have posted but it would have taken a couple of pages. The point is that we were skunked in the draft and this year we did not narrow the gap.
    I thought about doing the drafts from other teams like the Patriots and Eagles, but the post would be ridiculously long. It was long enough as is!

    There were a couple of players like Deltha O'Neal who have played well with other teams. I don't count those as successes. If they never panned out for the Broncos, then they were busts. Maybe Shanahan didn't coach them well or they never fit the Broncos D. scheme. It doesn't matter. If a guy wasn't right for the team he shouldn't have been drafted. That's a busted pick.

    Brian Griese: Please don't get me started on this waste of a human life. He sucked his way out of the starting job with 2 teams now. Enough said. He's a bust. My blood pressure starts to rise dangerously when I think how far the team might have gone with a decent QB instead of Griese during those wasted years.

    What strikes me as it strikes you is how few players from the past 6 years are still on the roster. So many late round picks who never even made the slightest impact. An NFL team requires depth, and you get depth in the draft (if you're a good team like the Patriots). It especially impacts on special teams, because you generally don't play your starters on ST. If your special teams suck, as the Broncos have the last few years, that's an indication that you lack depth.
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    • #47
      I have always like Shanny as a coach, not as the decision maker when it comes to draft day. This draft really dissapointed me.


      Avatar/Signature by Snk16

      Jake "the Fake" Plummer - Shannon Sharpe

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Cugel
        I thought about doing the drafts from other teams like the Patriots and Eagles, but the post would be ridiculously long. It was long enough as is!

        There were a couple of players like Deltha O'Neal who have played well with other teams. I don't count those as successes. If they never panned out for the Broncos, then they were busts. Maybe Shanahan didn't coach them well or they never fit the Broncos D. scheme. It doesn't matter. If a guy wasn't right for the team he shouldn't have been drafted. That's a busted pick.

        Brian Griese: Please don't get me started on this waste of a human life. He sucked his way out of the starting job with 2 teams now. Enough said. He's a bust. My blood pressure starts to rise dangerously when I think how far the team might have gone with a decent QB instead of Griese during those wasted years.

        What strikes me as it strikes you is how few players from the past 6 years are still on the roster. So many late round picks who never even made the slightest impact. An NFL team requires depth, and you get depth in the draft (if you're a good team like the Patriots). It especially impacts on special teams, because you generally don't play your starters on ST. If your special teams suck, as the Broncos have the last few years, that's an indication that you lack depth.
        .

        I AGRREEE
        I have said before but it needs repeating Most NFL franchises believe the we build your team through the draft ans YOU plug holes with FA's, if fact Mikey has stated this in the past.

        He has made poor personnle decisions over the past 5-7 years at best. But the draft IMHO has been the worst of the worst.

        He has been a bit over 50% with FA's. He has made some stupendist busts there mostly when he ignore the character side of the players. With FA it should he should be batting 1000% as youe can evealuate them against NFL talent.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by steve6787
          I have always like Shanny as a coach, not as the decision maker when it comes to draft day. This draft really dissapointed me.
          Has anyone thought to question the scouting staff? I mean you rely on the scouts to go out and watch these players and grade them. I bet Shanahan hasn't seen too many of these players. I mean one of the scouts used to work up in Canada as player personal director and whil i am sure he is going to take credit for a championship it was a championsip with a .500 team. He was one of the worst guys ant finding talen and the team record reflected that. He now works for the Broncos as a scout.

          Shanahan may have the final say but he is only as good as the information that he is given and at this point I think that the scouts have to be held accountable for some of the poor picks in the past.

          However lets not forget that the drafts have not been complete busts as suggested by some posters.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by DDP32
            Has anyone thought to question the scouting staff? I mean you rely on the scouts to go out and watch these players and grade them. I bet Shanahan hasn't seen too many of these players. I mean one of the scouts used to work up in Canada as player personal director and whil i am sure he is going to take credit for a championship it was a championsip with a .500 team. He was one of the worst guys ant finding talen and the team record reflected that. He now works for the Broncos as a scout.

            Shanahan may have the final say but he is only as good as the information that he is given and at this point I think that the scouts have to be held accountable for some of the poor picks in the past.

            However lets not forget that the drafts have not been complete busts as suggested by some posters.

            I had never even thought about that being more on the scouting department than on Kubiac and Shanny. Fire them all an bring in the scouting department of Ne and Philly. Doesn't everyone have a price? Wouldn't be worth it to pay out now and come home with a few championships later. Bowlen pays for winning teams...why not buy out the terrific scouting department of NE. Shanny is a great coach. That is the one tool he is missing.


            Another Great Contribution by SNK16!

            We're coming Indy!

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            • #51
              The Best Would Be

              56- Justin Miller- Stronger than Darrent Williams with the same speed from Clemson
              76- Evan Mathis- A very solid guard from Alabama
              97- Jerome Mathis- Insanely fast wide receiver from Hampton
              101- Adrian McPhearson- Rocket arm and Vick-like speed from AFL

              This would have been one of the best drafts ever. Think of what we could have had. I don't mean to be negative but seeing us pass on these guys who would definately make a bigger impact than loading up at corner, a position we only needed 1 more person for, and picking up Karl Paymah and Dominique Foxworth. We could have been amazing, not just decent...

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              • #52
                Originally posted by DDP32
                Has anyone thought to question the scouting staff? I mean you rely on the scouts to go out and watch these players and grade them. I bet Shanahan hasn't seen too many of these players. I mean one of the scouts used to work up in Canada as player personal director and whil i am sure he is going to take credit for a championship it was a championsip with a .500 team. He was one of the worst guys ant finding talen and the team record reflected that. He now works for the Broncos as a scout.

                Shanahan may have the final say but he is only as good as the information that he is given and at this point I think that the scouts have to be held accountable for some of the poor picks in the past.

                However lets not forget that the drafts have not been complete busts as suggested by some posters.

                65% of the existing players on our roster are FA's.

                There are only 7 drafted starters on this team 2 of which Mikey got from reeves. BTW one is Elam so while a starter his cotibution is about 4 minutes a game.

                Only 5 players that Mikey DAFTED started 4 or more games last year.

                http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=396

                Mikey gets tunnel vison when it is time to DAFT he did it with middlebroke, oneal, nash, foster. All players that were hurt in the final year or had only played in position for a year or so before the draft or in middlebrokes case BOTH.

                greasy was a one year starter, Toviessi I believe was hurt when drafted.

                Mikey bets on the come line way to much while drafting IMHO. Always going for the upside and not so much for the even bet kinda guys.

                Now has gambled well in the 4-7 rounds and got some steals. But I think that is luck of the draw more than great scouting.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by broncsx3
                  Yeah, %$% Shanahan who has totally restocked the defensive line, given us 3 quality receivers for next year, the best rushing attack in the NFL, two great tight ends, a competent quarterback that is always on the verge of playing like a star, a strong offensive line with pro bowl calibur players at almost every position, the best linebacker core in the NFL, and a secondary with 2 pro bowlers last year including the best cornerback in the NFL and now a lot of youth to compete for spots...

                  Oh, and lets not forget 2 first round picks in 2006 including one from a team that will probably finish bottom third in the league.

                  Yeah, lets get rid of him. He only puts us in a position to win every single season. He only won 2 Superbowls. Denver never has a rebuilding year, Denver always gives us hope. Move to Detroit, San Diego or Atlanta and know what its like to root for up and down (mostly down) teams... then come back here and try and ***** about Shanahan.

                  The Broncos are a class organization that is going through a period of ONLY being slightly above-average when Shanahan raised our standards to expect Superbowls and nothing else. He'll win another Superbowl or two for some team, let's just hope he puts up with this crap long enough for it to be in Denver.
                  this man speaks the truth.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cugel

                    Brian Griese: Please don't get me started on this waste of a human life. He sucked his way out of the starting job with 2 teams now. Enough said. He's a bust. My blood pressure starts to rise dangerously when I think how far the team might have gone with a decent QB instead of Griese during those wasted years.
                    wanna know what really pisses me off about the drafting of Griese? the fact that Hines Ward was the very next player picked

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Pryce4Prez
                      wanna know what really pisses me off about the drafting of Griese? the fact that Hines Ward was the very next player picked
                      Please! Let's NOT start a "who could we have drafted instead of Brian Griese!" thread! It would never end! EVERYONE who ever made a contribution for any team who was drafted after Griese would have been better.

                      Let's just agree that he was a bust and let it lie!
                      sigpic

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Cugel
                        Please! Let's NOT start a "who could we have drafted instead of Brian Griese!" thread! It would never end! EVERYONE who ever made a contribution for any team who was drafted after Griese would have been better.

                        Let's just agree that he was a bust and let it lie!
                        yup, too many "if's" and "when's"
                        i mean if you look at every pick and looked downwards to see who you passed over, you can probably make an all-pro team out of that, so just let it be
                        Member of Warwick University American Football Team in UK
                        http://www.warwickwolves.co.uk

                        I adopt Erica Weston

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cugel
                          Please! Let's NOT start a "who could we have drafted instead of Brian Griese!" thread! It would never end! EVERYONE who ever made a contribution for any team who was drafted after Griese would have been better.

                          Let's just agree that he was a bust and let it lie!

                          Come now, Brian was not a bust, the team was just not very good (olandis gary, no slot WRs, poor defense, etc...) He might not have been a charismatic wonder boy, but he is a very talented QB that we simply gave up on because we felt he underperformed his contract, a ridiculous contract that he never should have got.

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                          • #58
                            the thing about this draft i didnt like was the fact that they passed on Jackson for a special teams player....If they take Jackson in round 2, maybe Williams is still there even in round 3.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by broncsx3
                              Yeah, %$% Shanahan who has totally restocked the defensive line, given us 3 quality receivers for next year, the best rushing attack in the NFL, two great tight ends, a competent quarterback that is always on the verge of playing like a star, a strong offensive line with pro bowl calibur players at almost every position, the best linebacker core in the NFL, and a secondary with 2 pro bowlers last year including the best cornerback in the NFL and now a lot of youth to compete for spots...

                              Oh, and lets not forget 2 first round picks in 2006 including one from a team that will probably finish bottom third in the league.

                              Yeah, lets get rid of him. He only puts us in a position to win every single season. He only won 2 Superbowls. Denver never has a rebuilding year, Denver always gives us hope. Move to Detroit, San Diego or Atlanta and know what its like to root for up and down (mostly down) teams... then come back here and try and ***** about Shanahan.

                              The Broncos are a class organization that is going through a period of ONLY being slightly above-average when Shanahan raised our standards to expect Superbowls and nothing else. He'll win another Superbowl or two for some team, let's just hope he puts up with this crap long enough for it to be in Denver.
                              Some good points. Shanny is one of the best available. He is so good in other areas, IMHO, that they tend to override his and his staff's (I seldom hear them mentioned in this) occasional gaffs in evaluating draft picks.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cugel
                                Oh?

                                Let's take a look at the past 5 Broncos drafts and you judge for yourself. There have been a few hits, a lot more misses. Compare to the Patriots who seem to get use out of almost all their picks, despite picking at the bottom of every round the last few years!

                                1998: Complete Bust Draft - Grade F. Possibly the Worst in Broncos History!
                                1998
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
                                1 30 Marcus Nash WR
                                2 61 Eric Brown SS
                                3 91 Brian Griese QB
                                4 122 Curtis Alexander RB
                                5 153 Chris Howard RB
                                7 200 Trey Teague C
                                7 219 Nate Wayne OLB

                                1999: Amost Complete Bust Grade: C- Draft redeemed only by Al Wilson. 2 out of 7 is NOT good. Olandis Gary did well for a season, but was traded.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos. l
                                1 31 Al Wilson MLB
                                2 58 Montae Reagor DT
                                2 61 Lennie Friedman C
                                3 67 Chris Watson CB
                                3 93 Travis McGriff WR
                                4 127 Olandis Gary RB
                                5 158 David Bowens DE
                                5 167 Darwin Brown CB
                                6 179 Desmond Clark TE
                                6 204 Chad Plummer WR
                                7 218 Billy Miller TE
                                7 238 Justin Swift TE

                                2000: Decent Draft. B Grade. Deltha was a big disappointment at #1, but Ian Gold and Cooper Carlisle are now valuable players with the team. Mike Anderson was another RB steal in the 6th round. Kennedy played well for a few years and was a starter before leaving via FA.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos.
                                1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB
                                2 40 Ian Gold OLB Michigan
                                2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SS Arkansas
                                3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
                                4 101 Jerry Johnson DT Florida State
                                4 112 Cooper Carlisle G Florida
                                5 154 Muneer Moore WR Richmond
                                6 189 Mike Anderson FB Utah
                                7 214 Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
                                7 246 Leroy Fields WR Jackson State

                                2001: Grade D-. Almost a complete disaster! Middlebrooks was a wasted pick at #1, he's a career backup at best (he might not last past this season). Toviessi never played a down and was a wasted pick. Hayward blossomed into a good pash rusher for 1 season, then he left as a FA. Almost as bad as '98. Ben Hamilton saves this from being an F.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos.
                                1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB
                                2 51 Paul Toviessi DE
                                3 87 Reggie Hayward DE
                                4 113 Ben Hamilton G
                                4 120 Nick Harris P
                                6 190 Kevin Kasper WR

                                2002: Decent draft. Grade: C+/B- Lelie has become a starter. Portis was good and got us Champ Baiiley. Davis has done nothing due to injury. He must produce this year or goodbye. Brandon has been a decent, but not great safety. Putzier has a big contract and must justify the coaches faith in him this season. Pope may make the team or not. Jury's still out on this draft.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos.
                                1 19 Ashley Lelie WR
                                2 51 Clinton Portis RB
                                3 96 Dorsett Davis DT
                                4 131 Sam Brandon FS
                                5 144 Herb Haygood WR
                                6 191 Jeb Putzier TE
                                7 228 Chris Young SS
                                7 231 Monsanto Pope DT

                                2003: Another Bad Draft: C-/D+. Foster's a starter at RT. Coaches paid $23million to bring back Ian Gold what does that say about Pierce? Griffith could be the backup or he could be gone. Rest are trash.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
                                1 20 George Foster T
                                2 51 Terry Pierce OLB
                                4 108 Quentin Griffin RB
                                4 114 Nick Eason DT
                                4 128 Bryant McNeal DE
                                5 157 Ben Claxton C
                                5 158 Adrian Madise WR
                                6 194 Aaron Hunt DE
                                7 227 Clint Mitchell DE
                                7 235 Ahmaad Galloway RB

                                2004: Too early to tell. Grade so far: C. DJ's been great. Bell is a projected starter, we'll see. Watts could become a #3 WR, but was a big reach. So far he drops way too many passes. Rest look like scrubs. Will VanPelt or Mauck ever backup Plummer? Shanahan's desparate courtship of Jeff Garcia says he's not confident. Right now they look alot like Jarious Jackson Pt. II - career benchwarmers.
                                Rd Sel# Player Pos.
                                1 17 D.J. Williams OLB
                                2 41 Tatum Bell RB
                                2 54 Darius Watts WR
                                3 85 Jeremy LeSueur DB
                                5 152 Jeff Shoate CB
                                6 171 Triandos Luke WR
                                6 190 Josh Sewell C
                                7 225 Matt Mauck QB
                                7 247 Brandon Miree RB
                                7 250 Bradlee Van Pelt QB

                                Overall, not one A or A- draft or even a solid B+ in the bunch. 2000 was the best, and Shanny still missed on his #1 pick that year!
                                Generally a good post, Cugel. One thing I can appreciate is the time and effort you took to present this. I really mean that. (I say that because the last time I gave such a compliment the recipient took offense--thought I was sarcastic, I guess.) My compliments.

                                Just a couple minor comments:

                                In your 1999 draft comment, you said, "Olandis Gary did well for a season, but was traded." I would prefer to say that he did well for a season AND was traded. If we trade a player for value, that doesn't constitute a failure, does it? To me, it connoted depth at the position. Moreover, in his four years here, he played mostly behind one Terrell Davis and one Clinton Portis. Not a bad pick for #4, is it? And Al Wilson dramatically made up for the other busts that year, wouldn't you say? To me, those two would raise that year's grade to B-.

                                The 2000 draft would qualify for an A-, IMHO. Gold, Kennedy, Carlisle, and Anderson present a good argument for that. We thought O'Neal was a bust, but he has started successfully elsewhere. (Could that have been more like a conflict with a coach or something, rather than bad evaluation of talent?)

                                I wouldn't call the 2001 draft a disaster--not the greatest, maybe, but not disaster. Middlebrooks is still here, and he had some good moments last year. Coyer expressed some optimism toward him for this next year. Hamilton and Hayward were very good pickups, especially for #3 and #4, respectively. C+ (subject to B- if Middlebrooks picks it up this year).

                                2002, B+. Lelie, Portis, and Putzier? You're kidding of course. Superb additions. Davis, Brandon, Young, and Pope haven't set the world afire yet, but they are good enough to still be with us. Only Haygood is gone from your list.

                                2003, C+. Foster was a hit there, and then some. To me, what Gold's signing says about Pierce is that Gold is a proven Pro-Bowler, too good to pass up, and quality depth becomes thin behind Pierce. As he did last year, Pierce will get his minutes. Galloway's exit did not mean he was necessarily bad; it just meant there was a logjam at RB at the time. Same for Griffin if he goes; he will catch on with another team. But he is not gone, yet, and they still have a high opinion of him for what he can do. Madise is gone, but, again, I suspect that was due to a glut of good young WRs. The others, yes, the staff did fall flat on their faces, but the hits were pretty good hits, don't you think?

                                2004: Too early, agreed. Regarding your comment on Watts, however, rookies drop passes; that's just what they do. If he can hang onto them this year, then he wasn't so much of a reach, was he? LeSueur, Sewell, and Luke still show promise. The QBs, BVP and Mauck, were 7th round picks, where a candidate may or may not make it. A "bust" there does not necessarily constitute a busted draft, does it? After all, as you implied, D.J. Williams was a steal, even for a #1.

                                Going back to 1998, that was ugly, wasn't it? Regarding Griese, however, he did do a pretty fair job for three years, including his Pro-Bowl appearance in 2000. So I would not attribute that to bad evaluation of talent; something happened to Griese afterward that reversed what everyone initially saw in him. (That's still somewhat of a heartbreaker, in my mind.)

                                As I said, you made some cogent points. While I don't severely disagree with you, I do believe it is not quite as bad as your picture.

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