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The draft we could have had

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  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane
    You really want to face the draft truth?

    This years draft is so questionable, but I am still waiting for results.

    Darrent Williams - Could be another Dante Hall, could be better or worse. A short corner who will likely never start other then special teams and was slated to go in the 3rd round. (I like this pick but he was a reach, there was several better athletes on the board and we would have likely grabbed him in the top of the 3rd round) Athlete Rating: C / Draft Rating: D

    Karl Paymah - Fast corner with adjustment issues and questionable overall ability. Paymah is a speed corner project that could maybe go safety. Was slated to be a 5th to 6th rounder. (This was a major reach, though we got Browner via FA, this was almost certainly a descent pick, but as of now is a project) Athlete Rating:C / Draft Rating: F

    Dominique Foxworth - 'Da Fox' is the most on target pick, a possible breakout corner in the future with lightning speed. Though he could have been nabbed later in the 3rd, he was slated as a late 3rd and therefore Shanahan did better. With Foxworth and Williams, Paymah seems to be a wasted pick. (I like this pick more then the first two, he seems to have the ability to eventually be a starter.) Athlete Rating: C+ / Draft Rating: B+

    Maurice Clarett - The most contreversal athlete in the draft, but maybe the best overall running back in it as well. The young back led Ohio to the National Championship and then the crap hit the fan. Though he has made mistakes, he has truly so far proved that he has learned the error of his ways. (My second favorite pick, but maybe the top of all the prospects. He was a reach, but if he would have remained in football he might have been in Chicago instead of Denver this year.) Athlete Rating: C+ / Draft Rating: C-

    just rating from the first day of the draft:

    Athlete Overall Rating: C+ 6/10
    Draft Overall Rating: D 3/10

    Final First Day Rating: D+ 4/10 - This is so far a poor draft, the reaches killed the rating and to many questions remained. in the end Shanahan with his two picks in the second day was able to hit on target and overall walks out with 5/10 mark and overall rating of C-. If Denver can turn at least three of these picks into starters a B- will be the grade, but I think eventually 4 will be starters, one will contribute but in the end 2 will be busts.

    Looks to be pretty much on the mark.

    regardless of who they picked for Special teams both this year and last they still don't have the COACH to utilize the talent they already had.

    Mikey has to do more than just DAFT a few players, He needs to really pay attention to the ST area and go out a get a top notch ST coach.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam_Z
    replied
    Originally posted by LoufromLItt.
    I too have had it with shanny, BTW I did not like the browns trade either.
    Well fellas we have to put up with him for one more season but I truly feel if things dont go well this time around and after this draft and the trades as of late, then he'll be the friggin door. Hes a great football coach but he needs to let the talent scouts and GM do their jobs. Hes kinda like a bad owner always sticking his nose in where it dont belong! And I'll tell you one thing, if he dont clean up his act, I wouldnt be surprised to see half the coaching staff including Sundiquist working else where in the next two years.
    Last edited by Sam_Z; 05-14-2005, 06:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colorado69
    replied
    Whiners at work

    Sounds like alot of previous posts by anti-Shanahan and pro-Shanahan fans. What would the team be like if they had kept all the draft picks? Why is New England thought of so highly, when over the last decade they have usually sucked. They have an excellent coaching staff, but the Broncos have a winning record against them over the last decade. To give this draft a grade is ludicrous (sp). What if Williams breaks all the return records in the NFL during his career? Is he still a bust? Remember Rick Upchurch? He couldn't break into the starting lineup as a receiver, but he was no bust. Those of you who hate Shanahan, go to New England or Philly and start cheering for them. Since NONE of you know more than the Bronco staff, you can be laughed at for your egotistical statements and whining. Wait and see what happens. After all, the Broncos were seven points away from a 13-3 season last year. Shanny stated that he thought the team had the talent, but needed tweaking. He has attempted to improve the weakest part of the team - Special Teams. If the new kicker, returner, and fast special teamers work out as hoped, then the draft will have been an intelligent response to improving the team where it needed it most. Go ahead and get mad, but NONE of you is as skilled as Coach Shanahan and NONE of you have all the facts to work with to make the decisions. Whine! Whine!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by TXBRONC
    Again this is where you are very much mistaken. picks 16-32 do not necessarily make an impact right away. I understand you want to believe they do but its simply not true all you have to do is look at draft history to understand this. Btw with you constant use of sexual verbage maybe you need to talk to sex therapist.
    Thanks for the response.

    Your correct that they necssarily do not make an impact, but if your team needs help in an area they should be impact players.

    I looked at ALL FIRST DAY DAFTEES.

    In DENs case with the exception of DJ we have taken as a general rule 2-3 years for our top choice to make an impact. IF at all.

    1996
    1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown, Pa. starter
    2 44 Tory James CB Louisiana State minimal
    3 65 Detron Smith FB Texas A&M minimal
    3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida WHO?

    1997
    1 28 Trevor Pryce DE Clemson
    3 67 Dan Neil G Texas

    GREAT draft

    1998
    1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee BUST
    2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State BUST
    3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan Starter head case

    1999
    Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
    1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
    great
    2 58 Montae Reagor DT Texas Tech ok starter in IND
    2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke who?
    3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois Who?
    3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida JOKER

    2000
    1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California major head case
    2 40 Ian Gold OLB Michigan great
    2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SS Arkansas starter that can't cover
    3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M JOKE

    2001
    Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
    1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota Triple JOKE
    2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall Quad JOke
    3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State took 3 years to become a player

    2002
    1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii took 3years to develope
    2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami pro bowl head case
    3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State who knows if he will ever play

    2003
    1 20 George Foster T Georgia starter 2nd year
    2 51 Terry Pierce OLB Kansas State Who knows was insurance

    2004
    1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami yes
    2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State minimal
    2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall minimal
    3 85 Jeremy LeSueur DB Michigan NONE

    14 players out of 30 players that contributed before being cut, traded or remain on the team.

    3 that had an immediate impact. AW, DJ, CP

    3 that played somewhat in their rookie year. TB DW AL

    4-5 that played more in their second year. GF, KK, DO, TP, DN

    11 real impact starters in that group of first day picks. about 30% starter material. Not sure what the NFL average is but one would hope more thatn 40%. All should have been top ONE hundred players.

    BTW, I am a sexual therapist.
    Last edited by JRWIZ; 05-13-2005, 12:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dub-DeuceKnight
    replied
    Pick #14 - Thomas Davis - FS??? are you kidding me? his listed position was SS/OLB! he played SS in college there were no FS selected until Brodney Pool. Thomas Davis weighs 230 lbs and is in no way a free safety maybe not even a safety at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • lancane
    replied
    You really want to face the draft truth?

    This years draft is so questionable, but I am still waiting for results.

    Darrent Williams - Could be another Dante Hall, could be better or worse. A short corner who will likely never start other then special teams and was slated to go in the 3rd round. (I like this pick but he was a reach, there was several better athletes on the board and we would have likely grabbed him in the top of the 3rd round) Athlete Rating: C / Draft Rating: D

    Karl Paymah - Fast corner with adjustment issues and questionable overall ability. Paymah is a speed corner project that could maybe go safety. Was slated to be a 5th to 6th rounder. (This was a major reach, though we got Browner via FA, this was almost certainly a descent pick, but as of now is a project) Athlete Rating:C / Draft Rating: F

    Dominique Foxworth - 'Da Fox' is the most on target pick, a possible breakout corner in the future with lightning speed. Though he could have been nabbed later in the 3rd, he was slated as a late 3rd and therefore Shanahan did better. With Foxworth and Williams, Paymah seems to be a wasted pick. (I like this pick more then the first two, he seems to have the ability to eventually be a starter.) Athlete Rating: C+ / Draft Rating: B+

    Maurice Clarett - The most contreversal athlete in the draft, but maybe the best overall running back in it as well. The young back led Ohio to the National Championship and then the crap hit the fan. Though he has made mistakes, he has truly so far proved that he has learned the error of his ways. (My second favorite pick, but maybe the top of all the prospects. He was a reach, but if he would have remained in football he might have been in Chicago instead of Denver this year.) Athlete Rating: C+ / Draft Rating: C-

    just rating from the first day of the draft:

    Athlete Overall Rating: C+ 6/10
    Draft Overall Rating: D 3/10

    Final First Day Rating: D+ 4/10 - This is so far a poor draft, the reaches killed the rating and to many questions remained. in the end Shanahan with his two picks in the second day was able to hit on target and overall walks out with 5/10 mark and overall rating of C-. If Denver can turn at least three of these picks into starters a B- will be the grade, but I think eventually 4 will be starters, one will contribute but in the end 2 will be busts.

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by Jrhampton
    Not sure why you have a hardon for me, but going back 9 days and picking out part of a quote to comment on seems to me over the top.

    I disagree with your assement pracitcally anyone in the first round should be starter material unless of course you chosing perhaps the 4th CB or LB or Ot in the draft.

    There are 13 true positions if you don't count NT or Kickers, that 32 teams to chose from. In most cases your able to pick up one of the top 2 maybe 3 best talents at any of the positions being looked at. The number two QB did not go this year until #25.

    For example this years draft,

    QB-1-25-26
    RB-2-4-5
    OC-27
    OG-32
    OT-13-19
    WR-3-7-10-21-22-27
    TE-30

    DE-11-17-18-20
    DT-16-28-31
    MLB-none
    OLB-12-15
    SS-none
    FS-14
    CB-6-8-9-23-24-29

    Now considering that the
    QB's two were selected after the magical #16
    center, OG, 1 OT, 3 WR's, TE, 3 DE's, all three DT's, 1 OLB, and 3 CB's

    You don't feel that any of these have the chance to start this year?

    NO MLB were chosen nor SS.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round1

    If we can't find starters in the first round let alone the top three rounds then we should not be drafting anyone.

    They are the top 100 ahtletes in coming out of college. There has to be some spot on the team that we do not have a top 100 athlete starting on the squad.

    We filled a need in 2004 with DJ and Tater and Watts it has not happened like that in years.

    65% of our team are someone elses castoff's. I don't think that we do such a hot job in scouting or better yet believing what the scouts have to say.

    Again this is where you are very much mistaken. picks 16-32 do not necessarily make an impact right away. I understand you want to believe they do but its simply not true all you have to do is look at draft history to understand this. Btw with you constant use of sexual verbage maybe you need to talk to sex therapist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    This is a very interesting analysis!

    But I don't believe that the top draft picks necessarily would be able to start as rookies. That depends upon position, and team. Leaving aside QB's (who always take a few years -- Ben Roethlisberger excepted), WR's and OT sometimes take 2-3 years. Shanahan said as much in evaluating the necessity for Lelie to step up in performance last season (his 3rd full season in the NFL). He said that normally WRs take about 2-3 years to become starters and that Lelie needed to show his ability in 2004.

    The same goes for OL. It not only takes time to learn proper blocking techniques, and it takes time to learn to play with your linemates (especially in a system like Denver's). You would not expect a draft pick to be a starter before his 2nd year and probably at least 3rd year for LT. Foster started in his 2nd year and did pretty well at RT. That's about the best you can expect.

    Absolutely without a doubt you are right that a team's top draft pick SHOULD be able to start by year 3 at the most. If he can't make it by that point, he's a bust!

    But Darrent Williams will NEVER start! He will be a nickel CB at best his whole career because he's too short! GM Ted Sundquist has as much as admitted this already, when he said that Paymah and Foxworth were drafted to compete to ultimately replace Lennie Walls opposite Champ Bailey, while Williams was drafted to return punts and kickoffs and because he could ultimately be good as the #3 CB in nickel coverage.

    At the time I wondered why Willie Middlebrooks wasn't mentioned by Sundquist as a possible replacement for Walls (when he becomes a FA next year). After all the coaches were finally happy with his play before he was injured last year.

    Then I found out that not only is Middlebrooks a FA next year, he's represented by Drew Rosenhaus (along with Walls).

    Can you say "bye-bye"?! Rosenhaus will make some outrageous salary demand that the Broncos won't want to meet and both those guys will be gone as FA in 2006!
    Thanks for your thoughts, I might add about Drew R, I think that he may has stepped on his crank in the TO deal, perhaps some of his players may bolt if TO winds up setting out. May figure out that he id not looking after the best interests of the player.

    While it may take awhile to learn a position if you are one of the top 100 players in the nation you should have amuch better chance of stepping into a starting role than someone Drafted on the second day. That is of course if MIkey has ot really stretched for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheChampion
    replied
    Justin Miller THEN Darrent Williams then Jerome Mathis then Darren Sproles

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by Jrhampton
    Not sure why you have a hardon for me, but going back 9 days and picking out part of a quote to comment on seems to me over the top.

    I disagree with your assement pracitcally anyone in the first round should be starter material unless of course you chosing perhaps the 4th CB or LB or Ot in the draft.

    There are 13 true positions if you don't count NT or Kickers, that 32 teams to chose from. In most cases your able to pick up one of the top 2 maybe 3 best talents at any of the positions being looked at. The number two QB did not go this year until #25.

    For example this years draft,

    QB-1-25-26
    RB-2-4-5
    OC-27
    OG-32
    OT-13-19
    WR-3-7-10-21-22-27
    TE-30

    DE-11-17-18-20
    DT-16-28-31
    MLB-none
    OLB-12-15
    SS-none
    FS-14
    CB-6-8-9-23-24-29

    Now considering that the
    QB's two were selected after the magical #16
    center, OG, 1 OT, 3 WR's, TE, 3 DE's, all three DT's, 1 OLB, and 3 CB's

    You don't feel that any of these have the chance to start this year?

    NO MLB were chosen nor SS.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round1

    If we can't find starters in the first round let alone the top three rounds then we should not be drafting anyone.

    They are the top 100 ahtletes in coming out of college. There has to be some spot on the team that we do not have a top 100 athlete starting on the squad.

    We filled a need in 2004 with DJ and Tater and Watts it has not happened like that in years.

    65% of our team are someone elses castoff's. I don't think that we do such a hot job in scouting or better yet believing what the scouts have to say.
    This is a very interesting analysis!

    But I don't believe that the top draft picks necessarily would be able to start as rookies. That depends upon position, and team. Leaving aside QB's (who always take a few years -- Ben Roethlisberger excepted), WR's and OT sometimes take 2-3 years. Shanahan said as much in evaluating the necessity for Lelie to step up in performance last season (his 3rd full season in the NFL). He said that normally WRs take about 2-3 years to become starters and that Lelie needed to show his ability in 2004.

    The same goes for OL. It not only takes time to learn proper blocking techniques, and it takes time to learn to play with your linemates (especially in a system like Denver's). You would not expect a draft pick to be a starter before his 2nd year and probably at least 3rd year for LT. Foster started in his 2nd year and did pretty well at RT. That's about the best you can expect.

    Absolutely without a doubt you are right that a team's top draft pick SHOULD be able to start by year 3 at the most. If he can't make it by that point, he's a bust!

    But Darrent Williams will NEVER start! He will be a nickel CB at best his whole career because he's too short! GM Ted Sundquist has as much as admitted this already, when he said that Paymah and Foxworth were drafted to compete to ultimately replace Lennie Walls opposite Champ Bailey, while Williams was drafted to return punts and kickoffs and because he could ultimately be good as the #3 CB in nickel coverage.

    At the time I wondered why Willie Middlebrooks wasn't mentioned by Sundquist as a possible replacement for Walls (when he becomes a FA next year). After all the coaches were finally happy with his play before he was injured last year.

    Then I found out that not only is Middlebrooks a FA next year, he's represented by Drew Rosenhaus (along with Walls).

    Can you say "bye-bye"?! Rosenhaus will make some outrageous salary demand that the Broncos won't want to meet and both those guys will be gone as FA in 2006!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by TXBRONC
    This again show what you don't know about drafting Jr. The top 15 are expected to be impact players that can start right away. 16-32 although they may have the talent of a number one are not necessarily going make an impact right away.

    Not sure why you have a hardon for me, but going back 9 days and picking out part of a quote to comment on seems to me over the top.

    I disagree with your assement pracitcally anyone in the first round should be starter material unless of course you chosing perhaps the 4th CB or LB or Ot in the draft.

    There are 13 true positions if you don't count NT or Kickers, that 32 teams to chose from. In most cases your able to pick up one of the top 2 maybe 3 best talents at any of the positions being looked at. The number two QB did not go this year until #25.

    For example this years draft,

    QB-1-25-26
    RB-2-4-5
    OC-27
    OG-32
    OT-13-19
    WR-3-7-10-21-22-27
    TE-30

    DE-11-17-18-20
    DT-16-28-31
    MLB-none
    OLB-12-15
    SS-none
    FS-14
    CB-6-8-9-23-24-29

    Now considering that the
    QB's two were selected after the magical #16
    center, OG, 1 OT, 3 WR's, TE, 3 DE's, all three DT's, 1 OLB, and 3 CB's

    You don't feel that any of these have the chance to start this year?

    NO MLB were chosen nor SS.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/drafttracker/round/round1

    If we can't find starters in the first round let alone the top three rounds then we should not be drafting anyone.

    They are the top 100 ahtletes in coming out of college. There has to be some spot on the team that we do not have a top 100 athlete starting on the squad.

    We filled a need in 2004 with DJ and Tater and Watts it has not happened like that in years.

    65% of our team are someone elses castoff's. I don't think that we do such a hot job in scouting or better yet believing what the scouts have to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by Jrhampton
    I[B]Here is were I differ from the rest, I expect my #1 for sure to be starter materail the year we draft them if not by the next year at the latest.


    If they can't start why waste the choice on them there is always some position that needs to be upgraded, or at the least major backups for the all pros we have. If our entire squad was all pro I'd say start drafting back ups, but they are not.
    This again show what you don't know about drafting Jr. The top 15 are expected to be impact players that can start right away. 16-32 although they may have the talent of a number one are not necessarily going make an impact right away.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    I think Shanahan pretty much admitted that Vincent Jackson was a guy they considered in the 2nd round. He said that there were receivers in the 2nd who he felt could have made the team better, but not after that round. The more I think about that, the less I like the fact that he was grabbed by the Chargers.

    And he said that he just felt that adding a return specialist and nickel CB was a more important need.

    Perhaps so, but that does NOT reflect well on his drafting in recent years. Kick returner and special teams players generally are NOT the most prominent needs a team addresses in the 2nd round of a draft!

    At least not the good drafting teams!

    Once again on the mark.

    I refer to Mikey’s player acquisitions as DAFTING, seems to be the appropriate term.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by Bellthebest
    # 56- vincent jackson

    # 76- evin mathis

    # 97- chris canty

    # 101- ciatrick fason
    yes..that would have been a good draft....o well
    I think Shanahan pretty much admitted that Vincent Jackson was a guy they considered in the 2nd round. He said that there were receivers in the 2nd who he felt could have made the team better, but not after that round. The more I think about that, the less I like the fact that he was grabbed by the Chargers.

    And he said that he just felt that adding a return specialist and nickel CB was a more important need.

    Perhaps so, but that does NOT reflect well on his drafting in recent years. Kick returner and special teams players generally are NOT the most prominent needs a team addresses in the 2nd round of a draft!

    At least not the good drafting teams!

    Leave a comment:


  • Bellthebest
    replied
    Originally posted by mr williams52
    here is the draft that the broncos should have had today with everyone that was available with our picks

    # 56- vincent jackson

    # 76- evin mathis

    # 97- chris canty

    # 101- ciatrick fason
    yes..that would have been a good draft....o well

    Leave a comment:

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