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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Height matters at QB (to see the field better)

    It helps to be short at RB and O-line, the RB is harder to find and the O-line don't obstruct your QB's vision.

    FB is good to be short, low center of gravity and power, means defense will struggle to get under your blocks.

    D-line, not so much. LB, not so much. Safety, not so much.


    Height really only matters when you are a CB in man coverage on a tall WR with leaping ability. That's the only time height truly matters. And vice versa, if you are a tall WR exploiting that short CB in man coverage.

    Darrant Williams' height will help him on returns as he'll be harder to find, but he simply can never be a starting CB on the outside, the WRs are too big. He has no prayer of defending a tall guy like Moss that can outjump him. I mean, that's how Lelie makes most of his catches, by mismatches with shorter CBs or mismatches in speed. The glass ceiling for Williams is as a nickel, slot CB against specific teams.

    Darrell Green played in a different era with much smaller WRs. He also wasn't that great in terms of INTs if I recall. He was just fast and aggressive. The latter of which would draw him penalty after penalty nowadays.
    Mat'hir, I'm not sure which era you think Green played in. He only retired about 3 years ago and the receivers have not changed that much in height.

    Code:
    [U]2004's Top Receivers[/U]	
    Derrick Mason	5'10"
    Chad Johnson	6'1"
    Joe Horn   	6'1"
    Torry Holt 	6'0"
    Muhsin Muhammad	6'2"
    Laveranues Coles	5'11"
    Javon Walker	6'3"
    Isaac Bruce	6'0"
    Eric Moulds	6'2"
    Darrell Jackson	6'0"
    Marvin Harrison	6'0"
    Donald Driver	6'0"
    1997 was Green's last Pro Bowl year:
    Code:
    [U]1997's Top Receivers[/U]	
    Tim Brown	6'0"
    Herman Moore	6'4"
    Rob Moore	6'3"
    Cris Carter	6'3"
    Irving Fryar	6'0"
    Keenan McCardell	6'1"
    Jimmy Smith	6'1"
    Antonio Freeman	6'1"
    Johnnie Morton	6'0"
    Yancey Thigpen	6'1"
    O. J. McDuffie	5'10"
    Michael Irvin	6'2"
    Green was drafted in 1983 and started his first Pro Bowl in 1984. It is harder to find the heights of all the receivers back then but these are some of the notables that at the start of his career:
    Code:
    John Stallworth	6'2"
    Tim Brown	6'0"
    Jerry Rice  	6'2"
    Andre Reed	6'2"
    Art Monk   	6'3"
    Steve Largent	5'11"
    James Lofton	6'3"
    The point being that Green, a shorter cornerback, was excelling against receivers that had very similar height compared to today's players.

    Again, I'm not saying Darrent Williams will be another Darrell Green. But obviously a shorter player can overcome his height disadvantage if his skills are good enough.
    "You can't take the sky from me..."
    ------
    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by rugbythug
      So you are saying if Randy Moss was only 6-0 he would not be any good?

      Think about - I am saying Randy Moss Has Great body Control and Good Height-What you are trying to say is that only tall recievers can be good.
      Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, only tall recievers can be good

      If Randy Moss were 6' or below, I guarantee you he wouldn't be anything close to what he is today. You take away his height, and what do you have? A fast guy that doesn't want to go anywhere near the middle of the field, and can't out jump corners. Sure, he'd probably still be good, but to think that his height hasn't contributed to his success as a reciever, that's just flat out lying.

      I'm not disagreeing with you that a high percentage of the balls thrown are below 6', but what I'm saying, is if you play a matchup where Moss is on someone shorter than 6', and the other team is gonna throw that jump ball every damn play, and Moss is gonna come down with it. There are ways to take away his height advantage and that's why Moss doesn't have 200 yards recieving every game.

      Like I said in the post above which I was writing while you posted, tall recievers are also much bigger. In those balls thrown under 6', who would you rather have fighting for the ball? A 180 pound guy or a 220 pound guy? The guy with longer arms and a 40 pound weight advantage is going to have a natural advantage here in physical play.

      I'm not saying that short receivers or short corners can't be good. But what I am saying is that the bigger guy is going to have a natural advantage in going and getting passes, simple as that. Of course solid route-running, good hands, the QB, all sorts of other factors are there, and good corners like Champ can overcome them. But you put someone smaller than 5"10" on Moss? You're gonna be pretty sad when Moss puts up 4 td's on him.

      Height isn't overrated no matter what faulty logic you use to try and say it isn't.
      Last edited by twotone; 05-04-2005, 04:19 PM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Javalon
        Mat'hir, I'm not sure which era you think Green played in. He only retired about 3 years ago and the receivers have not changed that much in height.

        The point being that Green, a shorter cornerback, was excelling against receivers that had very similar height compared to today's players.

        Again, I'm not saying Darrent Williams will be another Darrell Green. But obviously a shorter player can overcome his height disadvantage if his skills are good enough.
        But look at all the recievers getting drafted. They're all 6'2", 6'4", 6'5". Well, not all of them obviously, but a lot of them. They're getting bigger, and in two or three years, that list of top recievers is going to have 5 or 6 guys at least that are 6'3" plus.

        That's what I'm worried about, you've got all these young guys built like skyscrapers and still 5'9", 5'10" corners. Darrel Green was an exceptional corner, don't get me wrong. But a lot of these guys getting drafted aren't . What are they gonna do?


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        • #19
          Originally posted by twotone
          I wouldn't put Williams on Moss either, I'm not an idiot. I'm just using it as an example. Williams has a ton of speed, and from what I've seen a decent amount of body control, which stands to the logic used in this thread that he could cover Randy Moss.

          A lot of the deep balls thrown to guys like Moss, there are guys right in his face. He just goes up over them.



          That doesn't even include the fact that Mike outweighs him by 40 pounds. Common sense states that the taller a guy is, the more he's going to weigh, so you're not just talking a taller WR, you're talking a BIGGER WR in almost all aspects. Put them in a jump ball situation and 9 times out of 10 that bigger, taller reciever is gonna get it.

          I'm not saying that height is the only important factor here, and I'm not saying that short corners can't be effective, playing the right matchups. Fact is these jump balls aren't just being thrown in the end zone, they're all over the place now.

          Height isn't the only important thing, but to think that it's "unimportant" is pretty ignorant to the fact that recievers these days are getting taller and taller.
          Your problem is your assuming there is a corner who can cover randy moss. If there is please point him out because I have not seen him yet.

          Strength is a completely different factor and is hugely important. I have never said otherwise.

          My post is only about height and how it is being overrated. I just get sick of hearing about it. People are basing way too much off of that single stat. It is way less important than body control or speed.

          One way that it is important is psychologicaly a QB feels like a reciever is more open because he sees more of him. However the balls he throws are still right in line with a short guy.
          http://216.58.161.132/forums/showthread.php?p=497087#post497087

          Above I will list all my predictions for the 2005 season.

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          • #20
            Corners need to be shorter- Because they are by definition reactionary. It is very hard for a guy to stop and start on a dime. Newton says the bigger you are the harder it is.
            http://216.58.161.132/forums/showthread.php?p=497087#post497087

            Above I will list all my predictions for the 2005 season.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rugbythug
              Your problem is your assuming there is a corner who can cover randy moss. If there is please point him out because I have not seen him yet.

              Strength is a completely different factor and is hugely important. I have never said otherwise.

              My post is only about height and how it is being overrated. I just get sick of hearing about it. People are basing way too much off of that single stat. It is way less important than body control or speed.

              One way that it is important is psychologicaly a QB feels like a reciever is more open because he sees more of him. However the balls he throws are still right in line with a short guy.
              Can't really argue here.

              There isn't a corner that can cover Moss, but you put a 5'10" guy on him and it's gonna be worse.

              I do agree that some people make too much of it. Some people automatically assume a guy like Browner (even though he's moving to saftey most likely if he sticks around) is gonna be good just because he's tall.

              My point is you're not gonna keep up with the rest of the league if you continually draft 5'10" corners, etc. I'm not saying any team does that, but height is important.


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              • #22
                Originally posted by twotone
                But look at all the recievers getting drafted. They're all 6'2", 6'4", 6'5". Well, not all of them obviously, but a lot of them. They're getting bigger, and in two or three years, that list of top recievers is going to have 5 or 6 guys at least that are 6'3" plus.

                That's what I'm worried about, you've got all these young guys built like skyscrapers and still 5'9", 5'10" corners. Darrel Green was an exceptional corner, don't get me wrong. But a lot of these guys getting drafted aren't . What are they gonna do?
                Like I said, the shorter guys have to have enough talent to overcome their height disadvantage. Obviously, players like Green are rare. My only point in regards to Darrent was that his height won't be the determining factor, or at least not by itself, in a successful career as a cornerback.

                As a side note, just being tall doesn't mean a receiver will be good. There were only 4 receivers at 6'3"+ drafted in the first three rounds, and one of them was a quarterback in college. Just like the cornerbacks, the height isn't going to matter very much if the skills aren't there.
                "You can't take the sky from me..."
                ------
                "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by twotone
                  Can't really argue here.

                  There isn't a corner that can cover Moss, but you put a 5'10" guy on him and it's gonna be worse.

                  I do agree that some people make too much of it. Some people automatically assume a guy like Browner (even though he's moving to saftey most likely if he sticks around) is gonna be good just because he's tall.

                  My point is you're not gonna keep up with the rest of the league if you continually draft 5'10" corners, etc. I'm not saying any team does that, but height is important.
                  You do have a point there. About the only effective defense against Moss is a pass rush so ferocious that the QB can't get the ball to him.

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                  • #24
                    Yea rod is what 6 on the dot.... and look what he has amounted to.....

                    Watch out for my 5 11 friend LEE EVANS to dominate!!!!!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rugbythug
                      Dear Short bus Rider-

                      Why would you use Sundquist as the be all end all. When you are already on record as saying they are terrible talent evaluaters?

                      TOTALLY BLOWS YOU!!
                      LMAO! Well, I had to think about that one for a minute!

                      But, really Sundquist is right! I mean it's not in disupte that receivers are taller, so you want a taller CB than in the past. What he said was just a truism about the current NFL, that has nothing to do with who he selects. There was an article in the post/news about this a couple weeks ago, I believe. Whether it's Justin Miller, or Williams or anyone else it's still going to be true.

                      Those arguing that size doesn't matter are just ignoring the fact that every GM in the NFL would probably disagree, and Sundquist certainly does. I mean he doesn't even feel the need to explain it it's so obvious -- you need a taller CB to cover the taller modern receivers. And he explains that that is why the Broncos gave the #1 RFA tender offer to Lennie Walls instead of Kelly Herndon.

                      Mostly I have criticized the Broncos for not drafting OL and DL when you're going to lose at least 2 and probably 3 DL off your starting unit next year to FA (Pryce & Warren, probably Brown) and at least 1 OL.

                      At least the Broncos got Chris Myers at OL, but he's a 6th rounder and those guys generally aren't as developed players. He might take a few years to become a starter (assuming he is ever going to) and they'll need one in 2006, which means they'll have to bring in a FA or promote someone from within. FA's will be both expensive and will not give the guy time to fit seamlessly into the system, and it's not clear that a top OL who can step in at RT is currently on the Broncos roster.

                      Of course, they didn't even draft a DL at all so that's a gaping hole.
                      sigpic

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                      • #26
                        I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.

                        Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
                          I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.

                          Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.
                          This what I have been meaning as well. I'm not trying to say the guy will be ever be a starter but his height wont necessarily keep him off the field as a nickle or dime back.
                          John 11: 25-27

                          My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                          Thanks Snk16

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rugbythug
                            I am so sick of hearing how one player is so much better than another because of his height. That is such a bunch of crap. Football comes down to speed and body control. Why do Harrison and Moss Dominate as recievers? Because the have speed and body control. Wherever the ball is they go get it. Only in the last 10 yards of the field is height even a factor-and then only as much as the QB's ability to take advantage.

                            Sit down and watch a football game-(I know it will be tough to do) Now please chart the height of each pass when caught. 90% of balls are going to be caught 6 foot or lower. The additional 10% are going to piss off your recievers.
                            so ur sayin that it dosent matter if you throw a fade route to Darius Watts or Vincent jackson?? ur sayin it dosent matter????i think that is very wrong
                            Go Broncos, Lakers, Angels!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
                              I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.
                              First of all, no CB can totally shut down Randy Moss 1 on 1. A team would be a fool to leave even their best CB in single coverage on Moss, because if Moss wins that battle even 1 time it's likely a TD, and that can change the outcome of the game!

                              With secondary help over the top, Moss CAN be controlled and he has been on many occasions.

                              But this thread has been that "height doesn't matter" and it flat does.

                              Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.
                              I agree that Williams has good cover skills and will eventually be useful.

                              But that is no reason to use a 2nd round pick on him! The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB!

                              That's simply NOT good drafting! You top draft pick in any successful draft SHOULD develop into a starter within 3 years. If not that's the definition of a bust.

                              Willie Middlebrooks, for example, was a bust not because he has no talent and will never contribute, but because he never won the starting job, and that's the measure of success for your top draft pick for any year.

                              IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.
                              sigpic

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cugel
                                The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB! . . . IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.
                                Well, Cugel, I kind of agree with you. If Williams just consistently improves our field position, I will consider him worth the cost. He doesn't have to be Dante Hall. We suffered terribly at times with field position, and we were 10-6. Had we not had that problem, we very well could have been 12-4. Now, if we can get someone who will improve our record like that, he is worth a #2, don't you think?

                                I know; that is all conjecture right now. We'll have to see. But let's not get too dogmatic about a draft being a bust until those lads get out onto the field and show us something.

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