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  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
    Oh, I'm not trying to argue that he was taken with the right selection in the draft. I do believe he is a reach, but my goal in my post was to look past that and see the value in the player not the pick. There is no doubt in my mind he was taken too early, the value doesn't equate. I think McFadden would have been the better choice, because his press cover style would fit nicely in our system, and Williams could have been taken in the third. But...what was done is done and I was just trying to describe what he will bring to the table. In the end, if the players you do take, reaches or not, develop and contribute in some fashion, you can survive on developmental reaches, but contributing is the key...

    The thread was about size mattering, not pick value, and that was my intent in posting. Williams can be a good, valuable player, regardless of size, but ultimately his ceiling is lower than the other two picks we made at the position because of his size. But optimistically, if the other two guys pan out, and one becomes a starter opposite Bailey, while Williams and the non starter share duties in the slot, this secondary could e the most athletic of the Shanahan era, that's what we have to hope for, at least.
    You know what? I think it is fruitless to argue whether the Williams pick was a "reach" or not until we see what he does on the field, don't you?

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  • OhNoKoolAid
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    I agree that Williams has good cover skills and will eventually be useful.

    But that is no reason to use a 2nd round pick on him! The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB!

    That's simply NOT good drafting! You top draft pick in any successful draft SHOULD develop into a starter within 3 years. If not that's the definition of a bust.

    Willie Middlebrooks, for example, was a bust not because he has no talent and will never contribute, but because he never won the starting job, and that's the measure of success for your top draft pick for any year.

    IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.
    Oh, I'm not trying to argue that he was taken with the right selection in the draft. I do believe he is a reach, but my goal in my post was to look past that and see the value in the player not the pick. There is no doubt in my mind he was taken too early, the value doesn't equate. I think McFadden would have been the better choice, because his press cover style would fit nicely in our system, and Williams could have been taken in the third. But...what was done is done and I was just trying to describe what he will bring to the table. In the end, if the players you do take, reaches or not, develop and contribute in some fashion, you can survive on developmental reaches, but contributing is the key...

    The thread was about size mattering, not pick value, and that was my intent in posting. Williams can be a good, valuable player, regardless of size, but ultimately his ceiling is lower than the other two picks we made at the position because of his size. But optimistically, if the other two guys pan out, and one becomes a starter opposite Bailey, while Williams and the non starter share duties in the slot, this secondary could e the most athletic of the Shanahan era, that's what we have to hope for, at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    If Williams wins 2 games by his punt returns or kickoff returns then OF COURSE he's worth it! But that's exactly what Donte Hall did in 2003 win a extra 2-3 games for his team by TDs on returns!

    That's a lot to ask from a returner. Just better field position would help, but that depends upon MUCH more than the returner. Mostly the Broncos haven't had good returns because their special teams suck! And the special teams suck because the team lacks depth and good young players from the draft (that's the hallmark of good special teams).

    Maybe all these CB's can help this year. I certainly hope so.
    So do I. Their will be a lot of speed there. And Burns is back; he is a tremendous special teams player and a great leader. I think we'll see a huge upswing in our special teams play this year. As you say: I hope so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by topscribe
    Well, Cugel, I kind of agree with you. If Williams just consistently improves our field position, I will consider him worth the cost. He doesn't have to be Dante Hall. We suffered terribly at times with field position, and we were 10-6. Had we not had that problem, we very well could have been 12-4. Now, if we can get someone who will improve our record like that, he is worth a #2, don't you think?

    I know; that is all conjecture right now. We'll have to see. But let's not get too dogmatic about a draft being a bust until those lads get out onto the field and show us something.
    If Williams wins 2 games by his punt returns or kickoff returns then OF COURSE he's worth it! But that's exactly what Donte Hall did in 2003 win a extra 2-3 games for his team by TDs on returns!

    That's a lot to ask from a returner. Just better field position would help, but that depends upon MUCH more than the returner. Mostly the Broncos haven't had good returns because their special teams suck! And the special teams suck because the team lacks depth and good young players from the draft (that's the hallmark of good special teams).

    Maybe all these CB's can help this year. I certainly hope so.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB! . . . IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.
    Well, Cugel, I kind of agree with you. If Williams just consistently improves our field position, I will consider him worth the cost. He doesn't have to be Dante Hall. We suffered terribly at times with field position, and we were 10-6. Had we not had that problem, we very well could have been 12-4. Now, if we can get someone who will improve our record like that, he is worth a #2, don't you think?

    I know; that is all conjecture right now. We'll have to see. But let's not get too dogmatic about a draft being a bust until those lads get out onto the field and show us something.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
    I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.
    First of all, no CB can totally shut down Randy Moss 1 on 1. A team would be a fool to leave even their best CB in single coverage on Moss, because if Moss wins that battle even 1 time it's likely a TD, and that can change the outcome of the game!

    With secondary help over the top, Moss CAN be controlled and he has been on many occasions.

    But this thread has been that "height doesn't matter" and it flat does.

    Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.
    I agree that Williams has good cover skills and will eventually be useful.

    But that is no reason to use a 2nd round pick on him! The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB!

    That's simply NOT good drafting! You top draft pick in any successful draft SHOULD develop into a starter within 3 years. If not that's the definition of a bust.

    Willie Middlebrooks, for example, was a bust not because he has no talent and will never contribute, but because he never won the starting job, and that's the measure of success for your top draft pick for any year.

    IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bellthebest
    replied
    Originally posted by rugbythug
    I am so sick of hearing how one player is so much better than another because of his height. That is such a bunch of crap. Football comes down to speed and body control. Why do Harrison and Moss Dominate as recievers? Because the have speed and body control. Wherever the ball is they go get it. Only in the last 10 yards of the field is height even a factor-and then only as much as the QB's ability to take advantage.

    Sit down and watch a football game-(I know it will be tough to do) Now please chart the height of each pass when caught. 90% of balls are going to be caught 6 foot or lower. The additional 10% are going to piss off your recievers.
    so ur sayin that it dosent matter if you throw a fade route to Darius Watts or Vincent jackson?? ur sayin it dosent matter????i think that is very wrong

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
    I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.

    Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.
    This what I have been meaning as well. I'm not trying to say the guy will be ever be a starter but his height wont necessarily keep him off the field as a nickle or dime back.

    Leave a comment:


  • OhNoKoolAid
    replied
    I think it is funny that Randy's name is being thrown around as the benchmark for comapring corner's coverage ability. Being that no corner has ever consistently shut him down, and only one really gives him any kind of consistent fit, Charles Tillman (and it isn't a Michael Irvin vs. Bobby "Cowboy Killer" Taylor bugaboo, this is more an itch than anything else) I think it is just silly to project Williams' ability as it would pertain to covering Moss. I'm not satisfied with even Bailey on Moss, or McAllister, Surtain, Smoot, Rolle, Clements, Winfield... Simply put, when Randy wants it, Randy gets it, and there isn't a thing any corner in this league can do about it.

    Williams is a damn good cover guy that will forever be limited by his size, no question about it. I've said it for months and I'll say it again, there is nothing wrong with having a superb playmaking nickel or dime guy that matches up favorably inside and makes plays from a position outside of the starting line up. He has the ability to be what Dre Bly was in St. Louis, and that would be a welcome change to a team that struggles to get even there starters to make plays on the ball. Darrent Williams has a place in this league, a place covering the Brandon Stokelys, Mark Claytons, Peerless Prices, Eric Parkers, Eddie Kennisons, Antwan Randle Els and Donte Stallworths, shorter receivers who use their quickness to make plays, quickness that can be matched by Williams. I can personally attest to this and have seen it. Williams won't be a starter outside and that is fine, but in due time, he will have no problem competing with undersized guys in the slot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by rugbythug
    Dear Short bus Rider-

    Why would you use Sundquist as the be all end all. When you are already on record as saying they are terrible talent evaluaters?

    TOTALLY BLOWS YOU!!
    LMAO! Well, I had to think about that one for a minute!

    But, really Sundquist is right! I mean it's not in disupte that receivers are taller, so you want a taller CB than in the past. What he said was just a truism about the current NFL, that has nothing to do with who he selects. There was an article in the post/news about this a couple weeks ago, I believe. Whether it's Justin Miller, or Williams or anyone else it's still going to be true.

    Those arguing that size doesn't matter are just ignoring the fact that every GM in the NFL would probably disagree, and Sundquist certainly does. I mean he doesn't even feel the need to explain it it's so obvious -- you need a taller CB to cover the taller modern receivers. And he explains that that is why the Broncos gave the #1 RFA tender offer to Lennie Walls instead of Kelly Herndon.

    Mostly I have criticized the Broncos for not drafting OL and DL when you're going to lose at least 2 and probably 3 DL off your starting unit next year to FA (Pryce & Warren, probably Brown) and at least 1 OL.

    At least the Broncos got Chris Myers at OL, but he's a 6th rounder and those guys generally aren't as developed players. He might take a few years to become a starter (assuming he is ever going to) and they'll need one in 2006, which means they'll have to bring in a FA or promote someone from within. FA's will be both expensive and will not give the guy time to fit seamlessly into the system, and it's not clear that a top OL who can step in at RT is currently on the Broncos roster.

    Of course, they didn't even draft a DL at all so that's a gaping hole.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Yea rod is what 6 on the dot.... and look what he has amounted to.....

    Watch out for my 5 11 friend LEE EVANS to dominate!!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by twotone
    Can't really argue here.

    There isn't a corner that can cover Moss, but you put a 5'10" guy on him and it's gonna be worse.

    I do agree that some people make too much of it. Some people automatically assume a guy like Browner (even though he's moving to saftey most likely if he sticks around) is gonna be good just because he's tall.

    My point is you're not gonna keep up with the rest of the league if you continually draft 5'10" corners, etc. I'm not saying any team does that, but height is important.
    You do have a point there. About the only effective defense against Moss is a pass rush so ferocious that the QB can't get the ball to him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Javalon
    replied
    Originally posted by twotone
    But look at all the recievers getting drafted. They're all 6'2", 6'4", 6'5". Well, not all of them obviously, but a lot of them. They're getting bigger, and in two or three years, that list of top recievers is going to have 5 or 6 guys at least that are 6'3" plus.

    That's what I'm worried about, you've got all these young guys built like skyscrapers and still 5'9", 5'10" corners. Darrel Green was an exceptional corner, don't get me wrong. But a lot of these guys getting drafted aren't . What are they gonna do?
    Like I said, the shorter guys have to have enough talent to overcome their height disadvantage. Obviously, players like Green are rare. My only point in regards to Darrent was that his height won't be the determining factor, or at least not by itself, in a successful career as a cornerback.

    As a side note, just being tall doesn't mean a receiver will be good. There were only 4 receivers at 6'3"+ drafted in the first three rounds, and one of them was a quarterback in college. Just like the cornerbacks, the height isn't going to matter very much if the skills aren't there.

    Leave a comment:


  • twotone
    replied
    Originally posted by rugbythug
    Your problem is your assuming there is a corner who can cover randy moss. If there is please point him out because I have not seen him yet.

    Strength is a completely different factor and is hugely important. I have never said otherwise.

    My post is only about height and how it is being overrated. I just get sick of hearing about it. People are basing way too much off of that single stat. It is way less important than body control or speed.

    One way that it is important is psychologicaly a QB feels like a reciever is more open because he sees more of him. However the balls he throws are still right in line with a short guy.
    Can't really argue here.

    There isn't a corner that can cover Moss, but you put a 5'10" guy on him and it's gonna be worse.

    I do agree that some people make too much of it. Some people automatically assume a guy like Browner (even though he's moving to saftey most likely if he sticks around) is gonna be good just because he's tall.

    My point is you're not gonna keep up with the rest of the league if you continually draft 5'10" corners, etc. I'm not saying any team does that, but height is important.

    Leave a comment:


  • rugbythug
    replied
    Corners need to be shorter- Because they are by definition reactionary. It is very hard for a guy to stop and start on a dime. Newton says the bigger you are the harder it is.

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