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  • #31
    Originally posted by topscribe
    Well, Cugel, I kind of agree with you. If Williams just consistently improves our field position, I will consider him worth the cost. He doesn't have to be Dante Hall. We suffered terribly at times with field position, and we were 10-6. Had we not had that problem, we very well could have been 12-4. Now, if we can get someone who will improve our record like that, he is worth a #2, don't you think?

    I know; that is all conjecture right now. We'll have to see. But let's not get too dogmatic about a draft being a bust until those lads get out onto the field and show us something.
    If Williams wins 2 games by his punt returns or kickoff returns then OF COURSE he's worth it! But that's exactly what Donte Hall did in 2003 win a extra 2-3 games for his team by TDs on returns!

    That's a lot to ask from a returner. Just better field position would help, but that depends upon MUCH more than the returner. Mostly the Broncos haven't had good returns because their special teams suck! And the special teams suck because the team lacks depth and good young players from the draft (that's the hallmark of good special teams).

    Maybe all these CB's can help this year. I certainly hope so.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cugel
      If Williams wins 2 games by his punt returns or kickoff returns then OF COURSE he's worth it! But that's exactly what Donte Hall did in 2003 win a extra 2-3 games for his team by TDs on returns!

      That's a lot to ask from a returner. Just better field position would help, but that depends upon MUCH more than the returner. Mostly the Broncos haven't had good returns because their special teams suck! And the special teams suck because the team lacks depth and good young players from the draft (that's the hallmark of good special teams).

      Maybe all these CB's can help this year. I certainly hope so.
      So do I. Their will be a lot of speed there. And Burns is back; he is a tremendous special teams player and a great leader. I think we'll see a huge upswing in our special teams play this year. As you say: I hope so.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cugel
        I agree that Williams has good cover skills and will eventually be useful.

        But that is no reason to use a 2nd round pick on him! The problem is NOT that Williams has no talent. The problem is that the Broncos used their top pick in the draft on a player who will NEVER START at one of the starting 2 CB positions and whom management has publicly stated before he has played a single down, that he DOESN'T fit into their plans as an outside CB!

        That's simply NOT good drafting! You top draft pick in any successful draft SHOULD develop into a starter within 3 years. If not that's the definition of a bust.

        Willie Middlebrooks, for example, was a bust not because he has no talent and will never contribute, but because he never won the starting job, and that's the measure of success for your top draft pick for any year.

        IF Williams gets 4-5 TD's on punt returns and turns into Dante Hall Pt. , THEN maybe he'll be worth a 2nd round pick! NOT otherwise.
        Oh, I'm not trying to argue that he was taken with the right selection in the draft. I do believe he is a reach, but my goal in my post was to look past that and see the value in the player not the pick. There is no doubt in my mind he was taken too early, the value doesn't equate. I think McFadden would have been the better choice, because his press cover style would fit nicely in our system, and Williams could have been taken in the third. But...what was done is done and I was just trying to describe what he will bring to the table. In the end, if the players you do take, reaches or not, develop and contribute in some fashion, you can survive on developmental reaches, but contributing is the key...

        The thread was about size mattering, not pick value, and that was my intent in posting. Williams can be a good, valuable player, regardless of size, but ultimately his ceiling is lower than the other two picks we made at the position because of his size. But optimistically, if the other two guys pan out, and one becomes a starter opposite Bailey, while Williams and the non starter share duties in the slot, this secondary could e the most athletic of the Shanahan era, that's what we have to hope for, at least.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
          Oh, I'm not trying to argue that he was taken with the right selection in the draft. I do believe he is a reach, but my goal in my post was to look past that and see the value in the player not the pick. There is no doubt in my mind he was taken too early, the value doesn't equate. I think McFadden would have been the better choice, because his press cover style would fit nicely in our system, and Williams could have been taken in the third. But...what was done is done and I was just trying to describe what he will bring to the table. In the end, if the players you do take, reaches or not, develop and contribute in some fashion, you can survive on developmental reaches, but contributing is the key...

          The thread was about size mattering, not pick value, and that was my intent in posting. Williams can be a good, valuable player, regardless of size, but ultimately his ceiling is lower than the other two picks we made at the position because of his size. But optimistically, if the other two guys pan out, and one becomes a starter opposite Bailey, while Williams and the non starter share duties in the slot, this secondary could e the most athletic of the Shanahan era, that's what we have to hope for, at least.
          You know what? I think it is fruitless to argue whether the Williams pick was a "reach" or not until we see what he does on the field, don't you?

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          • #35
            Originally posted by OhNoKoolAid
            Oh, I'm not trying to argue that he was taken with the right selection in the draft. I do believe he is a reach, but my goal in my post was to look past that and see the value in the player not the pick. There is no doubt in my mind he was taken too early, the value doesn't equate. I think McFadden would have been the better choice, because his press cover style would fit nicely in our system, and Williams could have been taken in the third. But...what was done is done and I was just trying to describe what he will bring to the table. In the end, if the players you do take, reaches or not, develop and contribute in some fashion, you can survive on developmental reaches, but contributing is the key...

            The thread was about size mattering, not pick value, and that was my intent in posting. Williams can be a good, valuable player, regardless of size, but ultimately his ceiling is lower than the other two picks we made at the position because of his size. But optimistically, if the other two guys pan out, and one becomes a starter opposite Bailey, while Williams and the non starter share duties in the slot, this secondary could e the most athletic of the Shanahan era, that's what we have to hope for, at least.
            I tend to agree. I've liked what I've heard about Williams as a person and as a player.

            But he just has such a limited upside. Of course, if he were a WR, he'd have no problems. You can be a pint-sized #3 WR, no problem. Dante Hall plays a valuable roll on the Chiefs NFL #1 offense.

            But anyone who argues that Williams wasn't a reach just doesn't get it! Broncos Management is saying that he's NOT a projected starter at outside CB, not the critics!

            And the ONLY reason why he couldn't potentially beat out Middlebrooks and the new CBs is that he's too small.

            Thus, we're back to SIZE MATTERS!
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            • #36
              You guys forgot that height matters at left tackle.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Javalon
                Mat'hir, I'm not sure which era you think Green played in. He only retired about 3 years ago and the receivers have not changed that much in height..
                Green was never a great CB, ever. He was popular with the fans because he was the fastest player in the league. At CB, he averaged 50 tackles and 3 ints or so over his career. I think the most interceptions he had was 5, and he did that thrice. He averaged defending 13 passes.

                He was best known for outstanding community service and was beloved in Washington for that, his speed, his youthful looks, and his playing longevity. He was never a great CB, he was just a great person.

                You can claim he's a Pro Bowl CB, and he was due to his popularity and speed. You can't claim he's a hall of fame CB or even in the top echelon. He's not. He was decidely slightly above-average for an extreme length of time, which was remarkable and certainly deserves admiration. But if he had not lasted as long as he did, there is nothing special about his career statistically. I equate him to Vinny Testaverde.



                As for size of WRs, lets look at the ones that matter....

                Kansas City - 3rd - 5th possible WRs
                Marc Boerighter - 6'3"
                Craphonso Thorpe - 6'1"
                Samie Parker - 5'11"
                Dante Hall - 5'8"

                Oakland - 3rd- 5th WRs
                Johnnie Morant 6'4"
                Ronald Curry 6'2"
                Doug Gabriel 6'2"
                Carlos Francis 5'9"

                San Diego 3rd-5th WRs
                Malcom Floyd 6'5"
                Vincent Jackson 6'5"
                Kassim Osgood 6'5"
                Reche Caldwell 6'0"

                You must have forgotten all of those guys in your height comparison. I left out the starters, which were also generally over 6'0".

                Originally posted by Javalon
                Again, I'm not saying Darrent Williams will be another Darrell Green. But obviously a shorter player can overcome his height disadvantage if his skills are good enough.
                As a 2nd round pick, if he doesn't turn into Darrell Green, then he's a bust. Unless he turns into Dante Hall on special teams. This guy was drafted specifically for special teams and specifically for the Colts. Because he sure as HELL is not going to play CB against the teams in our division. They'd eat him alive with his height. He can cover Dante Hall and Carlos Francis, on the 4-5 snaps those guys will get at WR. Hopefully, he can handle that while he waits to be matched up with Wayne or Stoakley in the Playoffs.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                  This guy [Williams] was drafted specifically for special teams and specifically for the Colts. Because he sure as HELL is not going to play CB against the teams in our division. They'd eat him alive with his height. He can cover Dante Hall and Carlos Francis, on the 4-5 snaps those guys will get at WR. Hopefully, he can handle that while he waits to be matched up with Wayne or Stoakley in the Playoffs.
                  He won't just be limited to certain receivers, he'll be the 3rd or 4th CB on the field in nickel and dime packages (assuming he develops enough to be on the field outside of special teams this season). In which case, he'll probably help out doubling on the WR to his side of the field. He can ceratainly do that much. He just can't ever hope to become the starting outside CB and cover the taller receivers 1 on 1.

                  Thus, as you say, unless he turns into another Dante Hall on punt returns (a dubious prospect) then it's really a reach that doesn't pan out.
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cugel
                    He won't just be limited to certain receivers, he'll be the 3rd or 4th CB on the field in nickel and dime packages (assuming he develops enough to be on the field outside of special teams this season). In which case, he'll probably help out doubling on the WR to his side of the field. He can ceratainly do that much. He just can't ever hope to become the starting outside CB and cover the taller receivers 1 on 1.

                    Thus, as you say, unless he turns into another Dante Hall on punt returns (a dubious prospect) then it's really a reach that doesn't pan out.
                    Well, Cugel, as I have mentioned before, I don't see how he has to become "another Dante Hall" to "pan out." If he consistently contributes to our field position, then he was worth it. I really believe that field position made several games far more difficult to win last year.

                    Regarding his prospects on defense, Coyer has already commented that he saw Williams playing on the inside but not the outside. So that apparently has not been what they expected of him.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                      Green was never a great CB, ever. He was popular with the fans because he was the fastest player in the league. At CB, he averaged 50 tackles and 3 ints or so over his career. I think the most interceptions he had was 5, and he did that thrice. He averaged defending 13 passes.

                      He was best known for outstanding community service and was beloved in Washington for that, his speed, his youthful looks, and his playing longevity. He was never a great CB, he was just a great person.

                      You can claim he's a Pro Bowl CB, and he was due to his popularity and speed. You can't claim he's a hall of fame CB or even in the top echelon. He's not. He was decidely slightly above-average for an extreme length of time, which was remarkable and certainly deserves admiration. But if he had not lasted as long as he did, there is nothing special about his career statistically. I equate him to Vinny Testaverde.
                      Okay.... Did you ever watch him play in his prime? He wasn't "slightly above-average." He was a damned good cornerback. He may or may not make the Hall of Fame (he might) but he was very good for a very long time.

                      You place too much emphasis on having big interception totals. Some cornerbacks aren't blessed with great hands which is why many of them become cornerbacks instead of receivers. But Green was top-notch in pass coverage.

                      Passes defended? The best cornerbacks are often the least attacked. Tackles? Even some of the best corners aren't big tacklers. But let's compare some of those average stats to today's Pro Bowl cornerbacks, keeping in mind that Green doesn't have stats in all those categories from earlier in his career:

                      Code:
                      [U]Player	               T&A	Pass Def[/U]
                      	
                      Lito Sheppard	53.5	13.0	Excluding rookie year
                      Ronde Barber	84.3	11.3	Excluding rookie year
                      Dre' Bly     	45.8	10.4         Excluding rookie year
                      Champ Bailey	68.3	11.8	
                      Tory James	46.2	9.3	Excluding first 3 years
                      Chris McAlister	49.5	11.8	
                      			
                      Darrell Green	50.1	11.8	91 - '02, excluding '92 when out 1/2 season
                                                                                      Also includes final 3 seasons when age caught up to him.

                      But again, you put too much emphasis on the stats for a position where stats can be very misleading. If you watched him play you knew he was more than just speed.

                      As for size of WRs, lets look at the ones that matter....

                      Kansas City - 3rd - 5th possible WRs
                      Marc Boerighter - 6'3"
                      Craphonso Thorpe - 6'1"
                      Samie Parker - 5'11"
                      Dante Hall - 5'8"

                      Oakland - 3rd- 5th WRs
                      Johnnie Morant 6'4"
                      Ronald Curry 6'2"
                      Doug Gabriel 6'2"
                      Carlos Francis 5'9"

                      San Diego 3rd-5th WRs
                      Malcom Floyd 6'5"
                      Vincent Jackson 6'5"
                      Kassim Osgood 6'5"
                      Reche Caldwell 6'0"

                      You must have forgotten all of those guys in your height comparison. I left out the starters, which were also generally over 6'0".
                      Maybe you misunderstood the point of my comparison. I was illustrating for you that Darrell Green didn't play against noticeably shorter competition since you were claiming that Green played in a different era with shorter receivers. My purpose in using Darrell Green was to show that being a shorter cornerback doesn't mean you can't succeed as a starter.

                      As a 2nd round pick, if he doesn't turn into Darrell Green, then he's a bust. Unless he turns into Dante Hall on special teams. This guy was drafted specifically for special teams and specifically for the Colts. Because he sure as HELL is not going to play CB against the teams in our division. They'd eat him alive with his height. He can cover Dante Hall and Carlos Francis, on the 4-5 snaps those guys will get at WR. Hopefully, he can handle that while he waits to be matched up with Wayne or Stoakley in the Playoffs.
                      I never claimed that Darrent Williams would be another Darrell Green nor did I even propose that he was a good pick with our second round pick.
                      "You can't take the sky from me..."
                      ------
                      "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

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                      • #41
                        I'll just politely disagree with ya Jav, I watched Darrell Green, he was just speed. he wasn't a good tackler and he did not have good ball skills. All he was, was ridiculous speed at a time no one else in the league was running a 4.23 40. And he played solid, unspectacular CB for two decades. Which is the most remarkable thing he's done.


                        Deion Sanders came along and showed what ball skills and speed together should look like. Now, he was avoided like the plague and he still averaged a very healthy number of INTs, around 5 per year. That's the only CB I've ever seen that teams would not throw to at all. Teams threw at Darrell Green, sometimes he made plays, sometimes he didn't. He was a solid player, a Kelly Herndon type of CB, I hope Williams turns into him.


                        I completely understand what your stance is, you are just being optimistic and saying that Williams could turn out to be an effective midget CB. And in your usual fashion, you say you don't really like the pick, but you'll support it and hope it works out rather then criticize it. I got ya.


                        But you know as well as every other football fan alive, in the early 1980s, when Darrell Green was at his best, the players were shorter, slower, and less muscular. The NFL has made a big point about changing it's rules to be more safe as players become bigger, stronger, and faster. Our division defending champions have 3 6'5" WRs that will be lining up in the slot, and all of them can likely jump around 40". Williams is going to be about a foot shorter, it's going to look like a powerforward trying to guard Shaq. If football is a game of inches, there's going to be an awful lot of open inches to throw to.


                        I'm like you in that I'm hoping for the best from Williams. However, I feel even though I'm a much more negative fan then you, the stances I portray are probably more realistic as to what is more likely to happen. And that's about all I'm trying to do is forecast the likely outcome. In this situation, best case scenario is Darrell Green, worst case scenario is a total bust, likely scenario is a David Macklin nickel/dime back role.


                        Regardless though, the fact "this" was our #1 targeted guy in the entire draft blows my mind. I'd love to homer out and praise the pick, but I can't, I think it's the dumbest selection since taking Watts over Starks last season. Infact, I think it may be the dumbest selection ever just because the front office is claiming he was the #1 ranked player on our board, over everybody else in the draft. /mindboggling.


                        Anyhow, I like the time you take when you do your debates to present some nice facts and numbers, regardless of whether I agree or not, intelligence is always appreciated.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                          Regardless though, the fact "this" was our #1 targeted guy in the entire draft blows my mind. I'd love to homer out and praise the pick, but I can't, I think it's the dumbest selection since taking Watts over Starks last season. Infact, I think it may be the dumbest selection ever just because the front office is claiming he was the #1 ranked player on our board, over everybody else in the draft. /mindboggling.
                          Well, in fairness he was only the #5 player on the Broncos board (apparently, we don't know if there was some player they had ranked higher who was picked between #25 and #56). There were 4 the Broncos wanted at #25 and none were available.

                          If you said you were shocked that Williams was the Broncos "top ranked player at #56" though, I'd have to agree with you. I mean there were any number of players taken between #56 and #76 who would have been better including Justin Tuck, Justin Miller and Vincent Jackson (who might be the most intriguing pick since he could be a very good possession receiver or TE, although he lacks elite WR speed) Considering Denver's red zone problems I'm not sure why Shanahan passed on him, especially if the team was going to draft Paymah in the 3rd! (After all if you target Paymah, the upside is that you at least know he'll be there when you pick -- since no-one else wanted him that high).
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                            I'll just politely disagree with ya Jav, I watched Darrell Green, he was just speed. he wasn't a good tackler and he did not have good ball skills. All he was, was ridiculous speed at a time no one else in the league was running a 4.23 40. And he played solid, unspectacular CB for two decades. Which is the most remarkable thing he's done.
                            Hey, politeness is always appreciated even when we are in disagreement. However, I am not the only one to feel that Green was just slightly better than average.

                            The Sporting News ranked him at #81 in their ranking of the NFL's 100 greatest players.

                            Vic Carucci (not that I care that much about analyst's opinions) had this to say about Green:
                            Having said that, Green still is my choice as the greatest cornerback I have ever seen, in person or on film. I know, for a fact, that some coaches gave explicit orders to their quarterbacks to avoid throwing to his side of the field because of his incredible ability to cover one-on-one. He overcame his lack of size to put together a long, distinguished career that saw him hold his own against receivers who steadily grew in size, speed and athleticism.
                            Chris Mortenson said he'd rank Green in his top five all time at the cornerback position.

                            Dr. Z from SI includes in in the upper echelon when he said, "The great turn-out-the-lights, one-on-one cover cornerbacks don't exist anymore. Deion Sanders, Darrell Green, Lester Hayes, Aeneas Williams, Mike Haynes, Albert Lewis, guys who'd spend so many afternoons locked in man-coverage, shutting down the enemy's best receiver, have been replaced by system cornerbacks."

                            Phil Simms said that Darrell Green and Mike Haynes were the best cornerbacks he ever faced.

                            I didn't mean for my mention of Green to take off on a tangent like this. But I'm very surprised you have so little respect for Green. He was a top-tier cornerback, not just slightly above average. I was a big Cowboys fan growing up and I couldn't stand that guy because of how good he was. He was a 7-time Pro Bowler and named to the 1990's NFL All-Decade Team. I'll be mildly surprised if he isn't inducted into the Hall of Fame on his first opportunity.

                            I completely understand what your stance is, you are just being optimistic and saying that Williams could turn out to be an effective midget CB. And in your usual fashion, you say you don't really like the pick, but you'll support it and hope it works out rather then criticize it. I got ya.
                            Yeah, that's my typical try-not-to-dwell-on-the-negative fashion. No, I didn't like the pick. Yes, I'll keep an open mind about him. Sorry if I don't like to critize a guy before he's even had a chance to play for us.

                            But you know as well as every other football fan alive, in the early 1980s, when Darrell Green was at his best, the players were shorter, slower, and less muscular. The NFL has made a big point about changing it's rules to be more safe as players become bigger, stronger, and faster. Our division defending champions have 3 6'5" WRs that will be lining up in the slot, and all of them can likely jump around 40". Williams is going to be about a foot shorter, it's going to look like a powerforward trying to guard Shaq. If football is a game of inches, there's going to be an awful lot of open inches to throw to.
                            Shorter? I don't know. But I do agree that players continue to get stronger and faster. But my point was purely regarding height and whether or not a player can overcome being short at cornerback if his other skills and physical skills are up to the challenge.

                            I'm like you in that I'm hoping for the best from Williams. However, I feel even though I'm a much more negative fan then you, the stances I portray are probably more realistic as to what is more likely to happen. And that's about all I'm trying to do is forecast the likely outcome. In this situation, best case scenario is Darrell Green, worst case scenario is a total bust, likely scenario is a David Macklin nickel/dime back role.
                            You still seem to be thinking that I have made some prediction about Darrent Williams' chances. I haven't. I've never even seen the guy play. Once again, my entire point was that being short does not guarantee that the kid can't become a starting cornerback. I never said he would become one.

                            This thread was started with a concern about height and whether or not it is a big deal. My stance is that it is a factor but being at a height disadvantage can be overcome if the player has the other areas of his game going for him.

                            Regardless though, the fact "this" was our #1 targeted guy in the entire draft blows my mind. I'd love to homer out and praise the pick, but I can't, I think it's the dumbest selection since taking Watts over Starks last season. Infact, I think it may be the dumbest selection ever just because the front office is claiming he was the #1 ranked player on our board, over everybody else in the draft. /mindboggling.
                            Yep. I would not have picked him this early if it had been my choice. There were much better options, in my opinion.

                            Anyhow, I like the time you take when you do your debates to present some nice facts and numbers, regardless of whether I agree or not, intelligence is always appreciated.
                            Hey, thanks for the compliment. I know we don't always (or seemingly often) agree on a lot of different areas but I hope we can keep things on an even keel because I do enjoy the discussions.
                            "You can't take the sky from me..."
                            ------
                            "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

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                            • #44
                              Is height overrated? Probably. Lest we forget that Ryan Leaf was very tall.
                              Generally, the taller player has the advantage, but it's not that simple. It really matters what position you are talking about.
                              Taller people can get more elevation and generally have longer arms, but a high center of gravity can be a disadvantage because it is easier for a compact player to stop and change direction. Also, tall running backs can have trouble avoiding injury because long, thin legs are more vulnerable (ever notice how little it takes to injure an NBA player's knees and ankles?).
                              A tall player cannot stop and change direction as quickly as a smaller player, which is not so bad for recievers but can hurt cornerbacks. You won't see many succesful NFL corners who are taller than 6'1 or 6'2 because they can generally be beaten with double moves. It's more important that a corner has long arms and leaping ability than just height.
                              Offensive tackles need long arms so they can keep speed rushers away from their bodies... again, height can be a disadvantage for interior linemen though because it's easier to get a tall guy off balance. Most guards, centers, and defensive tackles are more wide than tall.

                              As far as recievers and corners go, it's better to have balance than a bunch of tall guys. For example, I feel really good about the Giants corners because we have a short, agile cover corner with great speed in Will Allen, a big and strong guy in Will Peterson, and a ballhawk in Corey Webster. Who is the best of the three? It's impossible to say, really; it's good to have Allen cover the other team's "possession" reciever, Peterson covering the other team's deep threat, and Webster in the slot where he can pick off stray balls. All three players are important for covering different opponents.
                              As the Patriots have shown us, variety and diversity are key. The Pats don't have a specific style of play; they can be a power running, west coast, or downfield throwing team on offense and have a million different base defense packages. You have to be able to do whatever your opponent is vulnerable to; it might be dink-and-dunks to your 5'9" recievers, or deep bombs to Plaxico Burress.

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                              • #45
                                just saw this thread.... of course height is overrated, look at spud webb... like 5'6 and the little guy can dunk

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