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Height is OVERRATED!!

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  • rugbythug
    replied
    Originally posted by twotone
    I wouldn't put Williams on Moss either, I'm not an idiot. I'm just using it as an example. Williams has a ton of speed, and from what I've seen a decent amount of body control, which stands to the logic used in this thread that he could cover Randy Moss.

    A lot of the deep balls thrown to guys like Moss, there are guys right in his face. He just goes up over them.



    That doesn't even include the fact that Mike outweighs him by 40 pounds. Common sense states that the taller a guy is, the more he's going to weigh, so you're not just talking a taller WR, you're talking a BIGGER WR in almost all aspects. Put them in a jump ball situation and 9 times out of 10 that bigger, taller reciever is gonna get it.

    I'm not saying that height is the only important factor here, and I'm not saying that short corners can't be effective, playing the right matchups. Fact is these jump balls aren't just being thrown in the end zone, they're all over the place now.

    Height isn't the only important thing, but to think that it's "unimportant" is pretty ignorant to the fact that recievers these days are getting taller and taller.
    Your problem is your assuming there is a corner who can cover randy moss. If there is please point him out because I have not seen him yet.

    Strength is a completely different factor and is hugely important. I have never said otherwise.

    My post is only about height and how it is being overrated. I just get sick of hearing about it. People are basing way too much off of that single stat. It is way less important than body control or speed.

    One way that it is important is psychologicaly a QB feels like a reciever is more open because he sees more of him. However the balls he throws are still right in line with a short guy.

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  • twotone
    replied
    Originally posted by Javalon
    Mat'hir, I'm not sure which era you think Green played in. He only retired about 3 years ago and the receivers have not changed that much in height.

    The point being that Green, a shorter cornerback, was excelling against receivers that had very similar height compared to today's players.

    Again, I'm not saying Darrent Williams will be another Darrell Green. But obviously a shorter player can overcome his height disadvantage if his skills are good enough.
    But look at all the recievers getting drafted. They're all 6'2", 6'4", 6'5". Well, not all of them obviously, but a lot of them. They're getting bigger, and in two or three years, that list of top recievers is going to have 5 or 6 guys at least that are 6'3" plus.

    That's what I'm worried about, you've got all these young guys built like skyscrapers and still 5'9", 5'10" corners. Darrel Green was an exceptional corner, don't get me wrong. But a lot of these guys getting drafted aren't . What are they gonna do?

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  • twotone
    replied
    Originally posted by rugbythug
    So you are saying if Randy Moss was only 6-0 he would not be any good?

    Think about - I am saying Randy Moss Has Great body Control and Good Height-What you are trying to say is that only tall recievers can be good.
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, only tall recievers can be good

    If Randy Moss were 6' or below, I guarantee you he wouldn't be anything close to what he is today. You take away his height, and what do you have? A fast guy that doesn't want to go anywhere near the middle of the field, and can't out jump corners. Sure, he'd probably still be good, but to think that his height hasn't contributed to his success as a reciever, that's just flat out lying.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that a high percentage of the balls thrown are below 6', but what I'm saying, is if you play a matchup where Moss is on someone shorter than 6', and the other team is gonna throw that jump ball every damn play, and Moss is gonna come down with it. There are ways to take away his height advantage and that's why Moss doesn't have 200 yards recieving every game.

    Like I said in the post above which I was writing while you posted, tall recievers are also much bigger. In those balls thrown under 6', who would you rather have fighting for the ball? A 180 pound guy or a 220 pound guy? The guy with longer arms and a 40 pound weight advantage is going to have a natural advantage here in physical play.

    I'm not saying that short receivers or short corners can't be good. But what I am saying is that the bigger guy is going to have a natural advantage in going and getting passes, simple as that. Of course solid route-running, good hands, the QB, all sorts of other factors are there, and good corners like Champ can overcome them. But you put someone smaller than 5"10" on Moss? You're gonna be pretty sad when Moss puts up 4 td's on him.

    Height isn't overrated no matter what faulty logic you use to try and say it isn't.
    Last edited by twotone; 05-04-2005, 05:19 PM.

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  • Javalon
    replied
    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Height matters at QB (to see the field better)

    It helps to be short at RB and O-line, the RB is harder to find and the O-line don't obstruct your QB's vision.

    FB is good to be short, low center of gravity and power, means defense will struggle to get under your blocks.

    D-line, not so much. LB, not so much. Safety, not so much.


    Height really only matters when you are a CB in man coverage on a tall WR with leaping ability. That's the only time height truly matters. And vice versa, if you are a tall WR exploiting that short CB in man coverage.

    Darrant Williams' height will help him on returns as he'll be harder to find, but he simply can never be a starting CB on the outside, the WRs are too big. He has no prayer of defending a tall guy like Moss that can outjump him. I mean, that's how Lelie makes most of his catches, by mismatches with shorter CBs or mismatches in speed. The glass ceiling for Williams is as a nickel, slot CB against specific teams.

    Darrell Green played in a different era with much smaller WRs. He also wasn't that great in terms of INTs if I recall. He was just fast and aggressive. The latter of which would draw him penalty after penalty nowadays.
    Mat'hir, I'm not sure which era you think Green played in. He only retired about 3 years ago and the receivers have not changed that much in height.

    Code:
    [U]2004's Top Receivers[/U]	
    Derrick Mason	5'10"
    Chad Johnson	6'1"
    Joe Horn   	6'1"
    Torry Holt 	6'0"
    Muhsin Muhammad	6'2"
    Laveranues Coles	5'11"
    Javon Walker	6'3"
    Isaac Bruce	6'0"
    Eric Moulds	6'2"
    Darrell Jackson	6'0"
    Marvin Harrison	6'0"
    Donald Driver	6'0"
    1997 was Green's last Pro Bowl year:
    Code:
    [U]1997's Top Receivers[/U]	
    Tim Brown	6'0"
    Herman Moore	6'4"
    Rob Moore	6'3"
    Cris Carter	6'3"
    Irving Fryar	6'0"
    Keenan McCardell	6'1"
    Jimmy Smith	6'1"
    Antonio Freeman	6'1"
    Johnnie Morton	6'0"
    Yancey Thigpen	6'1"
    O. J. McDuffie	5'10"
    Michael Irvin	6'2"
    Green was drafted in 1983 and started his first Pro Bowl in 1984. It is harder to find the heights of all the receivers back then but these are some of the notables that at the start of his career:
    Code:
    John Stallworth	6'2"
    Tim Brown	6'0"
    Jerry Rice  	6'2"
    Andre Reed	6'2"
    Art Monk   	6'3"
    Steve Largent	5'11"
    James Lofton	6'3"
    The point being that Green, a shorter cornerback, was excelling against receivers that had very similar height compared to today's players.

    Again, I'm not saying Darrent Williams will be another Darrell Green. But obviously a shorter player can overcome his height disadvantage if his skills are good enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • twotone
    replied
    Originally posted by TXBRONC
    I wouldn't put a rookie on Moss unless he's already a very polished corner. However there are guys who play bigger than their actual size. Darrell Green was roughly the same height and most of the time gave way several inches yet he was one of the best cover corners to play the game.
    All right, that's enough of the Darrell Green comparisons.

    You put Darrell Green one on one with Randy Moss and his ass is gonna get blown away, simple as that. It's not that I don't have respect for what Green did as a corner, but just look at the guys getting drafted at reciever, a good amount of them are over 6'3". Even if the smaller guys have better vert's, they're gonna get overpowered by these guys that are 5-6" taller and 30 pounds heavier. Green didn't play against guys like this. Sure, a lot of the recievers were taller than him, but not as tall as all the guys playing WR these days.

    I wouldn't put Williams on Moss either, I'm not an idiot. I'm just using it as an example. Williams has a ton of speed, and from what I've seen a decent amount of body control, which stands to the logic used in this thread that he could cover Randy Moss.

    A lot of the deep balls thrown to guys like Moss, there are guys right in his face. He just goes up over them.

    I'm gonna use some math using Javalon's comparison of Darrent Williams' 39.5" vertical versus Mike Williams' 37" vert, which he said would be taking away the taller reciever's height advantage. (I know the disclaimer Javalon posted saying it is only possible for the smaller recievers to overcome this, not saying they will, just using it as a reference)

    Ok, so when Darrent jumps (and this is if they are just standing completely still) he's 39.5" in the air. Mike jumps at the same exact time and he jumps 37" in the air. Doesn't take a genius to see that Darrent is 2.5" higher off the ground than Mike. Mike is 6'5", Darrent is 5'9". Again, doesn't take much to realize there's a 8" difference there. Darrent has closed the gap by 2.5", but Mike is still 6" higher in the air. And that's just at a stand still. Not even taking into effect that Mike is more than likely playing the ball while Darrent is playing Mike, so he isn't going to have as much jump on the ball. It's a terrible mismatch. And Mike is one of many recievers out there that are 6'4"+

    That doesn't even include the fact that Mike outweighs him by 40 pounds. Common sense states that the taller a guy is, the more he's going to weigh, so you're not just talking a taller WR, you're talking a BIGGER WR in almost all aspects. Put them in a jump ball situation and 9 times out of 10 that bigger, taller reciever is gonna get it.

    I'm not saying that height is the only important factor here, and I'm not saying that short corners can't be effective, playing the right matchups. Fact is these jump balls aren't just being thrown in the end zone, they're all over the place now.

    Height isn't the only important thing, but to think that it's "unimportant" is pretty ignorant to the fact that recievers these days are getting taller and taller.

    Leave a comment:


  • rugbythug
    replied
    Third and short on the 30 yard line- where is the ball going to be thrown? Low and away-95% of the time. The other 5% the reciever is going off the field with the trainer.

    Yes Height makes a difference in the last 10 yards. And here speed is less of a factor. In theory it should also be important in long ball situations-But in theory communisim works. Only very rarely is it important because most of the time passes are not accurate enough to make it so.

    Leave a comment:


  • rugbythug
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    I'm sorry, but this is just total B.S.! Height matters a LOT at CB, which is why Darrient Williams will NEVER be the starting CB. Period.

    Don't take my word for it, here's what Broncos GM Ted Sundquist had to say. The Broncos coaches are clearly aware of the limitations of Darrent Williams:


    Is there anything UNCLEAR about that?

    Is there any chance of Williams replacing Walls? Translation: NO! Becuse "you're looking for a bigger guy" than 5'8".

    Perhaps you might want to read it again and let it sink in a little!

    The team drafted Williams for his punt/kick return ability and he will play on the inside in nickel and dime packages. Period. They felt he was more versatile than Miller because he returns punts. Since "the receivers have gotten bigger in the league and you want a bigger corner" than Williams's 5'8", the team drafted 2 additional CBs AFTER Williams (one 6'0" and the other 5'11") both of whom will compete for the outside CB spot along with the CB's already on this team (like Willie Middlebrooks). Williams WON'T get that chance because he's too small. Period.

    Sundquist's statement TOTALLY BLOWS YOUR ARGUMENT OUT OF THE WATER!
    Dear (not a nice epithet - J)

    Why would you use Sundquist as the be all end all. When you are already on record as saying they are terrible talent evaluaters?

    TOTALLY BLOWS YOU!!
    Last edited by Jared; 05-04-2005, 11:50 PM.

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  • rugbythug
    replied
    Originally posted by twotone
    You're absolutely right, height means nothing.

    Let's match up Darrent Williams with Randy Moss when we play the Raiders.

    There should be absolutely no problems with that, because as you say, Randy Moss dominates with his speed and body control, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's taller and can jump higher than most CB's. Williams has a ton of speed, so it should be no problem, right?

    I find it really funny that you use Moss in your argument against height being overrated. Pretty much proved yourself wrong while trying to make an incorrect statement.

    So you are saying if Randy Moss was only 6-0 he would not be any good?

    Think about - I am saying Randy Moss Has Great body Control and Good Height-What you are trying to say is that only tall recievers can be good.

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by twotone
    You're absolutely right, height means nothing.

    Let's match up Darrent Williams with Randy Moss when we play the Raiders.

    There should be absolutely no problems with that, because as you say, Randy Moss dominates with his speed and body control, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's taller and can jump higher than most CB's. Williams has a ton of speed, so it should be no problem, right?

    I find it really funny that you use Moss in your argument against height being overrated. Pretty much proved yourself wrong while trying to make an incorrect statement.
    I wouldn't put a rookie on Moss unless he's already a very polished corner. However there are guys who play bigger than their actual size. Darrell Green was roughly the same height and most of the time gave way several inches yet he was one of the best cover corners to play the game.

    Leave a comment:


  • twotone
    replied
    You're absolutely right, height means nothing.

    Let's match up Darrent Williams with Randy Moss when we play the Raiders.

    There should be absolutely no problems with that, because as you say, Randy Moss dominates with his speed and body control, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's taller and can jump higher than most CB's. Williams has a ton of speed, so it should be no problem, right?

    I find it really funny that you use Moss in your argument against height being overrated. Pretty much proved yourself wrong while trying to make an incorrect statement.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    Is there anything UNCLEAR about that?
    WOW! Guess there shouldn't be anything unclear now, Cugel! You about blew the top of my head off with the size of your font.

    But I do agree with you. No problem there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cugel
    replied
    I am so sick of hearing how one player is so much better than another because of his height. That is such a bunch of crap.
    I'm sorry, but this is just total B.S.! Height matters a LOT at CB, which is why Darrient Williams will NEVER be the starting CB. Period.

    Don't take my word for it, here's what Broncos GM Ted Sundquist had to say. The Broncos coaches are clearly aware of the limitations of Darrent Williams:
    Jay; Las Cruces, N.M.
    I don't understand why the team drafted Darrent Williams, when Justin Miller was on the board?

    Ted Sundquist
    Fair question -- Justin Miller obviously is an outstanding defensive back and a returner in his own right, but Justin is primarily a kickoff return guy. Darrent does both; punt return and kickoff return and he may even be a better punt returner. Our thinking from a special teams standpoint, was his ability to return punts as well as kickoffs was the factor that brought him to the forefront of our list. He's also been a really dynamic guy with the ball in his hands after turnovers with regard to interceptions. He's run a number of interceptions back for touchdowns. We got excited about his playmaking ability with the ball in his hands in any manner and the fact that he can do that as a punt returner was the reason we went in that direction.

    Zach; Pace, Fla.
    What are the plans for Darrent Williams and the return game?

    Ted Sundquist
    Darrent will be involved with the return game both as a punt returner and a kickoff returner. I'm sure he'll also contribute on special teams as a gunner; he'll run down on kickoff coverage. He's an extremely physical guy for a smaller player and right now he probably is looking at playing inside on the nickel and dime packages. His stature and the way he plays the game is probably better suited for the inside game.

    Chris; Livingston, Mont.
    Was Williams drafted strictly for special teams, or does he have a chance of taking Lenny Walls place as the other starting corner?

    Ted Sundquist
    There will be a lot of competition should something happen over there with regard to Lenny. Lenny will go into the season as our starter but he is coming off of a shoulder surgery and he is an unrestricted free agent next year. We have every intention of keeping Lenny next season but you never know, you're trying to put the whole team together and you've got to make those types of decisions. With that said, you want to have as many young players that you can possibly get to compete for that spot and guys like Karl Paymah, Domonique Foxworth, Roc Alexander and Jeff Shoate will be competing for that outside spot as well. Normally what you're looking for is a bigger guy because the receivers have gotten bigger in the league and you want a bigger corner which is why Lenny projects so well in there with his 6' 4" frame. Karl Paymah is 6'0", 204 lbs and Domonique, is 5-11, 183 lbs. They're a little bit longer than a guy like Darrent Williams and because of their size they match up a little bit better on the outside. That's why we went toward those types of guys after we took Darrent.
    Is there anything UNCLEAR about that?

    Is there any chance of Williams replacing Walls? Translation: NO! Becuse "you're looking for a bigger guy" than 5'8".

    Perhaps you might want to read it again and let it sink in a little!

    The team drafted Williams for his punt/kick return ability and he will play on the inside in nickel and dime packages. Period. They felt he was more versatile than Miller because he returns punts. Since "the receivers have gotten bigger in the league and you want a bigger corner" than Williams's 5'8", the team drafted 2 additional CBs AFTER Williams (one 6'0" and the other 5'11") both of whom will compete for the outside CB spot along with the CB's already on this team (like Willie Middlebrooks). Williams WON'T get that chance because he's too small. Period.

    Sundquist's statement TOTALLY BLOWS YOUR ARGUMENT OUT OF THE WATER!
    Last edited by Cugel; 05-04-2005, 03:46 PM.

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  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by rugbythug
    I am so sick of hearing how one player is so much better than another because of his height. That is such a bunch of crap. Football comes down to speed and body control. Why do Harrison and Moss Dominate as recievers? Because the have speed and body control. Wherever the ball is they go get it. Only in the last 10 yards of the field is height even a factor-and then only as much as the QB's ability to take advantage.

    Sit down and watch a football game-(I know it will be tough to do) Now please chart the height of each pass when caught. 90% of balls are going to be caught 6 foot or lower. The additional 10% are going to piss off your recievers.
    A lack of height can be over come no matter what position it maybe. Darrell Green was 5'9" and was one of the best corners of his era. No matter what some people think even at cornerback height can be (although not necessarily) overcome.

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  • Mat'hir Uth Gan
    replied
    Height matters at QB (to see the field better)

    It helps to be short at RB and O-line, the RB is harder to find and the O-line don't obstruct your QB's vision.

    FB is good to be short, low center of gravity and power, means defense will struggle to get under your blocks.

    D-line, not so much. LB, not so much. Safety, not so much.


    Height really only matters when you are a CB in man coverage on a tall WR with leaping ability. That's the only time height truly matters. And vice versa, if you are a tall WR exploiting that short CB in man coverage.

    Darrant Williams' height will help him on returns as he'll be harder to find, but he simply can never be a starting CB on the outside, the WRs are too big. He has no prayer of defending a tall guy like Moss that can outjump him. I mean, that's how Lelie makes most of his catches, by mismatches with shorter CBs or mismatches in speed. The glass ceiling for Williams is as a nickel, slot CB against specific teams.

    Darrell Green played in a different era with much smaller WRs. He also wasn't that great in terms of INTs if I recall. He was just fast and aggressive. The latter of which would draw him penalty after penalty nowadays.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornbroncofan
    replied
    I think hieght is very important especially at certain posistions like on the line and QB

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