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  • #46
    Originally posted by myoung
    I agree with this. I believe our DEs are sub standard. The combination of Lang, Brown, and the such does not make me real happy.

    But I was trying to compare them to the average not to our DEs.

    I think Allen can get some pressure but he is not the best all around DE. I think Hali will have a hard time translating his skill set to the NFL. I had several of these concerns before the combine. now I am even more concerned. A 4.85 40 is a real problem when a guy needs to get pressure on the QB. There are very few that can get pressure from the DE with that speed. The ones that do are generally larger and stronger than Hali.

    I like the kids heart but I don't think he will be a superstar.

    I think Allen will get some pressure but be very weak against the run and then Hali will end up being average to better than average against the run but not be able to get a pass rush and at the end of the day the Chiefs will be stuck with 0 difference makers on the D Line.

    You can't really be defending that Defense can you? It has sucked for so long and you have to realize that has to do with how bad you reach for Defensive players in the draft. I thought you turned the corner last year but I guess not.....
    That 4.85 time for Hali is not all that accurate. He was at an above normal weight for him (275 compared to 260-265) and he has been time in the 4.7 range before, which is just as fast as Mathias Kiwanuka. Plus, I may have mentioned before that Jared Allen timed in the 4.8 range when he was coming into the NFL yet that hasn't stopped him from averaging 10 sacks the past two seasons.
    "And we all know that stats don't mean anything if you don't have the wins to back them up"-ChampWJ

    It's a good thing Jay Cutler was a proven winner in college. Oh wait, nevermind.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by kmartin575
      That 4.85 time for Hali is not all that accurate. He was at an above normal weight for him (275 compared to 260-265) and he has been time in the 4.7 range before, which is just as fast as Mathias Kiwanuka. Plus, I may have mentioned before that Jared Allen timed in the 4.8 range when he was coming into the NFL yet that hasn't stopped him from averaging 10 sacks the past two seasons.
      That is true on Allen. He is actually slower than Hali so maybe you get two slow DEs that can rush the passer. I still don't think either will be spectacular and they will both have problems because of the interior of the line.

      I don't believe that Hali is much faster. I have not seen an official time faster than that and he made a mistake by running as late as he did. It would have cost his stock dearly except the Chiefs jump in and save him. I believe no other team in the NFL would have drafted him in the first round.

      But best of luck to that line. You have two DEs that give it all on every play. Even if they are not the most gifted athletes; they bring it. Which I have to admire.

      Comment


      • #48
        I was listening to a guy on the radio today who was a radio commentator at Penn State. He was saying while Hali's 40 time isn't all that impressive his 10 yard or 20 yard dash times is impressive, which is what matters. Hali is very quick off the line, and it is very rare that a DE has to run 40 yards in any direction.
        "And we all know that stats don't mean anything if you don't have the wins to back them up"-ChampWJ

        It's a good thing Jay Cutler was a proven winner in college. Oh wait, nevermind.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by kmartin575
          I was listening to a guy on the radio today who was a radio commentator at Penn State. He was saying while Hali's 40 time isn't all that impressive his 10 yard or 20 yard dash times is impressive, which is what matters. Hali is very quick off the line, and it is very rare that a DE has to run 40 yards in any direction.
          fair enough. That is true. and you have players like Suggs in Baltimore that is not terribly fast in a 40 but is a big time performer.

          I still think it is a reach and the Chiefs could have traded way back and still got him. I am not sure why they went this direction when there were plenty of corners still on the board and both top WRs. These two areas seem to be just as big of a need if not more. So why reach for Hali?

          It also leaves you with a set of very small DEs which will continue to be a problem against the run, especiallly if Hali has to play at 255 -260 to get rid of his sluggishness......

          Comment


          • #50
            All the big time DE's were going to go i first. Hali Kiwi lawson wimbley... good pick for them unless they didn't mind getting a CB instead (then would be safe to move back in case Hali was picked)

            They pretty much wanted him and not take a chance (like bills and whitner) I had wintner going to us at 15... of course we got they guy we tried moving up to i GB and SF for, so we had a huge steal w/ cutler. The main thing is they wanted their man on top of there boards and didn't want to risk trading down and him not being there... OK... bad example that was the dumbist move I have seen LMAO they should of traded down and snatched him up later but anyways...

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by myoung
              fair enough. That is true. and you have players like Suggs in Baltimore that is not terribly fast in a 40 but is a big time performer.

              I still think it is a reach and the Chiefs could have traded way back and still got him. I am not sure why they went this direction when there were plenty of corners still on the board and both top WRs. These two areas seem to be just as big of a need if not more. So why reach for Hali?

              It also leaves you with a set of very small DEs which will continue to be a problem against the run, especiallly if Hali has to play at 255 -260 to get rid of his sluggishness......
              It WAS a reach, but reaches sometimes pay off. We'll see.

              Both Hali at #20 and Kiwanuka at #22 (to the Giants) made people say "huh?" because those were guys who should probably have been early to mid 2nd round picks on most boards. There just weren't a lot of pass-rushing DEs in this draft worthy of a 1st round pick.

              This has happened before. Teams often reach for DEs because the position is so important. They draft need rather than real ability because even though the players available might not be worth a high draft pick, someone else will take them anyway, so everybody is forced to jump in and grab them early, just to get somebody at all.

              That's one reason that some 1st round DL are busts and others are mediocre compared to the other players taken around them.

              Then there is the other phenomena, which is a player who is underrated for some reason and emerges as a star: DE Usi Umenyiori of the Giants (14.5 sacks) comes to mind -- he was a 2nd round pick. If he were coming out now with what is now known about him, he'd probably be the #1 overall pick instead of Mario Williams and certainly a top 5 pick.

              But how are you supposed to know in advance whether you are getting an Umenyiori or just another top 10 pick bust like Ryan Simms (#6 2003)! (Just a little dig at Chiefs fans)!
              Last edited by Cugel; 05-02-2006, 09:04 AM.
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              • #52
                The difference between Tamba Hali and previous Chiefs D-line picks like Ryan Sims is that we actually looked at Hali's character before we drafted him. Every other guy we have drafted on d-line recently in the first couple of rounds has been lazy for the most part.

                I wouldn't call our DE's undersized. Yes they are in the 260 range, but that is becoming the norm. Most of the top DE's in the game today are in the 260 range (or less):

                Dwight Freeney: 6'1", 268
                Jason Taylor: 6'6", 255
                Jevon Kearse: 6'4", 265
                John Abraham: 6'4", 258
                Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila: 6'4", 250
                Aaron Schobel: 6'4", 262
                Terrell Suggs: 6'3", 260
                Adewale Ogunleye: 6'4", 260
                Alex Brown: 6'3", 262
                Simeon Rice: 6'5", 268
                Derrick Burgess: 6'2", 266


                As you can see the undersized DE is what is normal. With Jared Allen (6'6", 265) and (6'2", 265) we have two DE's that are of pretty much normal size in the NFL.
                "And we all know that stats don't mean anything if you don't have the wins to back them up"-ChampWJ

                It's a good thing Jay Cutler was a proven winner in college. Oh wait, nevermind.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by kmartin575
                  The difference between Tamba Hali and previous Chiefs D-line picks like Ryan Sims is that we actually looked at Hali's character before we drafted him. Every other guy we have drafted on d-line recently in the first couple of rounds has been lazy for the most part.

                  I wouldn't call our DE's undersized. Yes they are in the 260 range, but that is becoming the norm. Most of the top DE's in the game today are in the 260 range (or less):

                  Dwight Freeney: 6'1", 268
                  Jason Taylor: 6'6", 255
                  Jevon Kearse: 6'4", 265
                  John Abraham: 6'4", 258
                  Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila: 6'4", 250
                  Aaron Schobel: 6'4", 262
                  Terrell Suggs: 6'3", 260
                  Adewale Ogunleye: 6'4", 260
                  Alex Brown: 6'3", 262
                  Simeon Rice: 6'5", 268
                  Derrick Burgess: 6'2", 266


                  As you can see the undersized DE is what is normal. With Jared Allen (6'6", 265) and (6'2", 265) we have two DE's that are of pretty much normal size in the NFL.
                  I wish you the best of luck with this. But the point is that most of the players on your list trade speed for size which is what makes them great. Hali does not do this. I think it is a problem.

                  But it looks like you believe and that is what matters. It is your team. The fact that I see it as a bad thing is normal because I bleed different colors than you. I hope for you personally it works out but of course I would love for your defense to go on sucking like they have for years. I just wish you guys didn't play so well in Arrowhead. It would really take a load off.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by myoung
                    I wish you the best of luck with this. But the point is that most of the players on your list trade speed for size which is what makes them great. Hali does not do this. I think it is a problem.

                    But it looks like you believe and that is what matters. It is your team. The fact that I see it as a bad thing is normal because I bleed different colors than you. I hope for you personally it works out but of course I would love for your defense to go on sucking like they have for years. I just wish you guys didn't play so well in Arrowhead. It would really take a load off.
                    That's cool. I'm not trying to persuade you to think he is a Pro Bowl player or anything, and I respect your opinion.
                    "And we all know that stats don't mean anything if you don't have the wins to back them up"-ChampWJ

                    It's a good thing Jay Cutler was a proven winner in college. Oh wait, nevermind.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by kmartin575
                      That's cool. I'm not trying to persuade you to think he is a Pro Bowl player or anything, and I respect your opinion.
                      I have enjoyed talking to you through this thread. I always enjoy talking with fans from other teams. This board is sometimes so blue and orange that I need a taste of other views.

                      I have to agree with you that it would be nice to have two DEs that have big time motors. Those guys will both go and go and go. After watching Pryce take half of last year off it would be nice to have a guy like that.

                      this is my main concern about Mario Williams. I watched over half of the NC State games last year and I didn't even notice him most of the time. I can't stand having players on our team that don't bring it every play.

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