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  • #46
    Originally posted by lancane
    True...but what of those can not be developed by coaching? Is it possible to strengthen Woodley? Is it possible to coach him to a similar level as Johnson? -- there is the difference, if one can develop into the mold or style of another then what I say stands. Can a poor covering corner be coached to be better and also to have better hands? All players as long as they have the athletic ability can develop into a much better player, athlete and positional prospect.

    I was not always a safety, I was once a linebacker like Gold, I was coached into a cover linebacker and within a short period moved to safety...not that I prefered such, but coaches felt they could develop me enough to be a standout at that position...that was all she wrote, I never went back, I was considered a hybrid, but I never played another down as a pure linebacker and that helped me go to college. So the point I make is valid, the talent can be enough to coach the weaknesses to strengths and develop a player to a better athlete...Rod Smith was a quarterback, how did he become one of the best receivers in the league?


    I absolutely agree with your theory. Every year we see college QBs such as Antwaan Randel El and Brad Smith be drafted with the intent to change and coach them into a new position. The same occurs with DEs being drafted as 3-4 OLBs.

    However, generally, there are innate qualities, things unteachable, that those individuals possess when they are drafted. These talents are what suggest to the NFL scouts that the player could make a successful change at the next level. Realistically, there tend to be specific numerical values associated with various events, that suggest to the scouts the player could perform at the new position.

    For instance, a QB being turned into a WR, would need to have exceptional quickness (3 cone), as well as decent acceleration (various dash increments). DEs that are turned into 3-4 OLBs, such as Demarcus Ware, Shawne Merrimen, Manny Lawson, and Kamerion Wimbley, all have specific athletic criteria that suggested they could make such a move successfully, specifically the 3 cone drill and 40 times. Which measure one's ability to change direction and pursue. Also, the 10m time is important for blitzing purposes.

    Likewise, a Power End, who has to deal with RTs, has a few criteria as well. Certain skillsets that can usually be taught or learned over time, such as upper and lower body strength (within frame limitations), techniques to get off blocks, and tackling form/pursuit angles. But there are also other skillsets which are more innate, this can also encompass strength (above the norm), it can encompass heart and desire to fight in those trenches, suffer injuries, and continue to get to the RB or QB. And in some cases its all about the individual skill set and unique abilities such as long arms to help with getting off blocks, or natural balance and fluidity to assist with leverage exploitation.

    The Combine measures all these assets and lays them bare for the world to see and calculate. The College film lays bare the player's heart and desire, which is more important at some positions then others.

    Some players such as Woodley, do not like to deal with blockers, they like to run around them. Some players such as Johnson prefer to stand them up and go through them. Mental make-up is not coachable, nor is desire. This is why some players are just what they are.

    Johnson is not going to have the speed or quickness to play LB. His numbers at the Combine will show this. Woodley should post decent numbers, enough to show he can play that position. Woodley's film study is what will keep him from playing as a Power End, and likely as a Rush End as well. However, Woodley's frame prevents him from being a consideration for Power End. He's not going to turn into a powder keg overnight.

    There are three innate body types with their own metabolism structure. Not everyone can become strong enough nor big enough. One 6'0, 250 lb man simply won't be able to do all the things another 6'0, 250 lb man could. The Combine measures such things, which is why it is the end-all, be-all concerning the draft. The other smaller portion of consideration comes from film and interviews measuring dedication, heart, and desire.

    I believe we have to know and understand all these factors and numbers fully before completely understanding where a player could possibly play. Most of these numbers are already available for these two players, as well as, film on their game preferences, such as fighting through blocks and being strong against the run, or snaking past blocks and pursuing the QB.

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    • #47
      From what I've been hearing, Carriker is doing alot better than Moss or Moses.
      I'd take Carriker or wait and take Barraka Atkins from the "U" later.
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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
        I agree with Dumervil, perhaps. That may be his role, just a rush specialist, he is a very stocky guy though with insane quickness. Alot of that comes from his low leverage. Being tall and skinny is generally not a good thing to be. So, Moss and Moses have to fill out a good 20 lbs and then they have to keep their speed. Then...they have to show the will, desire, and ability to play the run, stay in their lanes, and stick to their assignments.

        Right now, all Moss and Moses can do is rush the passer. And due to their height, size, and lack of leverage, they are going to have massive trouble going against OTs in the NFL.

        Engleberger is very good against the run and holding his assignment. He doesn't stand out, but thats what you want in a backup.

        As for getting to Manning, the trick to that answer is you need an interior pass rush or you need to run a 3-4 and disguise your blitzes. Also, having a safety or two that can actually cover would be nice. Our DEs collectively played well last year. It was our safeties, DTs, and LBs that did not.
        I think so too. The DEs were decent, but nothing special. The DTs wore down and Warren was injured a lot. The ones left were exceptionally poor and never seemed to get any penetration at all. Myers is now going to be let go, and that won't improve them. We'll see who Shanahan brings in to replace him and Courtney Brown at power-end.

        I'm afraid you are appearing more and more right that the Broncos should have drafted Vince Wilfork. They could desparately use a guy like that about now!
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        • #49
          I really want a "super special pass rusher" but I don't think that there will that many left at our pick that aren't "one dimensional". Moses and Moss appear to be just that. I've got to go with Carriker because he's a monster that can play power (left) end and can move inside to 3 technique DT on passing downs.

          I'd pick Carriker (if he's still there) at our pick in the first round and then make a play for Dan Bazuin later on (with our high third rounder) if he's still on the board.

          A lot depends on if we make any moves for a DT in FA. With how much money we have wrapped up at DE right now, I doubt if Shanny drafts one, especially on the first day.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by HORSEPOWER 56
            I really want a "super special pass rusher" but I don't think that there will that many left at our pick that aren't "one dimensional". Moses and Moss appear to be just that. I've got to go with Carriker because he's a monster that can play power (left) end and can move inside to 3 technique DT on passing downs.

            I'd pick Carriker (if he's still there) at our pick in the first round and then make a play for Dan Bazuin later on (with our high third rounder) if he's still on the board.

            A lot depends on if we make any moves for a DT in FA. With how much money we have wrapped up at DE right now, I doubt if Shanny drafts one, especially on the first day.
            I don't know where Carriker will go in the draft, but some draft gurus think he's going to be the best lineman of this draft, which is possible I suppose.

            In any case, if he has a good combine, he will be taken before the Broncos pick at #21 for sure. Denver COULD move up perhaps 6 places or so and get a shot at an elite DE. Jamal Anderson, Gaines Adams, and Charles Johson also figure to be gone sometime in the top 15, depending on what happens at the combine.

            About the best the Broncos can hope for is that some players who are now 2nd or 3rd round picks will zoom up into the top 1/2 of the 1st round based on an outstanding combine performance. It seems to happen almost every year, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it again.
            Example: WR Matt Jones moved out of nowhere to #21 in 2005, based on his 4.3 speed and size, although he'd never played anything but QB in college. Teams couldn't resist the idea of a 6'3" 238 lbs. receiver who could run a 4.3 and had good hands -- even if he never played the position. He's played decently, but is still a backup in his 2nd season.


            That kind of thing could possibly push one of the DEs down the board to #21. A RB or a TE or two and some OL turn out to have better speed than expected, and they rise. Some guys disappoint and the fall down the board.

            Or a Luis Castillo tests positive for steroids and falls to the Chargers at #31 then turns out to be one of the best DTs.
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