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  • skinny®
    replied
    Personally i thought marty was out coached. THE reason he was let go. IMO 2 little things win ball games.....Gameplan and execution. Yeah you have to have good players to win but, as us denver fans, we've seen what a diffrence coaching makes when shanny got here. You can have yer 1800yd r.b. yer 1000+yd t.e. etc. etc. and the best record in the NFL, that's not what wins championships. It all comes down to coaching. Gameplan=coach Execution=players

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  • bry422
    replied
    Originally posted by Alps2315
    Then how would you explain them getting beat by New England at home in the playoffs? New England has no where near the talent that San Diego has and they beat them. If what you are saying is true, then San Diego's talent should of won the game for them. Talent doesn't win games. Its the heart of the players that does. You can have all of the talent in the world and the wrong attitude and approach to the game (e.g., T.O. and Randy Moss). San Diego's downfall was that they relied too much on talent and not on heart. That team didn't have heart in that game. That was one thing that changed with Indy this year. They weren't relying on their talent, they actually got physical and acted like they wanted to win (just like Manning does every game). Did you see his look at the Pro Bowl when the game was hanging in the balance? You could tell by his face that he wanted to win that game sooooo bad. That's what the difference is in games.
    The best team doesn't always win, I realize that, but every coach on every level will tell you that the team with the better players wins much more often than not. If talent didn't matter, as you say, then why are USC and Texas always so darn good? They have the best players (the most talent). Why were Reggie Bush and Vince Young selected in the top 5 of the draft? It didn't have anything to do with the size of their heart. Heart is important. Al Wilson and others provide that, but heart only gets you so far.

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  • Alps2315
    replied
    Originally posted by bry422
    I suppose. One of the things that jumped out at me in the two SD games is that while watching it seemed like Denver had to work a lot harder to score and prevent scores than SD did. SD has the ability to "flip the switch" and just rely on their talent, kind of like a big college team when playing a cupcake. At some point in the game the better, talented team wakes up and lets its talent win the game. A 10-10 game quickly gets out of hand and your left to wonder, "how did that happen" and you get the false impression that your team is a lot closer than they really are.
    Then how would you explain them getting beat by New England at home in the playoffs? New England has no where near the talent that San Diego has and they beat them. If what you are saying is true, then San Diego's talent should of won the game for them. Talent doesn't win games. Its the heart of the players that does. You can have all of the talent in the world and the wrong attitude and approach to the game (e.g., T.O. and Randy Moss). San Diego's downfall was that they relied too much on talent and not on heart. That team didn't have heart in that game. That was one thing that changed with Indy this year. They weren't relying on their talent, they actually got physical and acted like they wanted to win (just like Manning does every game). Did you see his look at the Pro Bowl when the game was hanging in the balance? You could tell by his face that he wanted to win that game sooooo bad. That's what the difference is in games.

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  • bry422
    replied
    Originally posted by Alps2315
    If you look at the game that Cutler started, both of them, we should of won the first one but that was one of Cutler's first starts. We had a big lead going into the fourth quarter. In SD, we came back and almost won that game. If we can just fix our DL, then our LBs will be freed up to make more plays than they are now. They have to concentrate so much on stopping the run that it hinders them. Al has made a lot of big plays. Anytime we need something to get our defense kick started, what always happens? Al knocks someones head off. I know this was a couple years ago, but remember the Ricky Williams hit? Holy smokes, he still does that, he did it to Dillon, or Maroney (can't remember which), in the NE game. Same thing with Lynch. Look at how many running plays that he made the stop in the backfield or at the line of scrimmage. Yes we do make them sound better but that's bc we are true fans. But Denver doesn't have to bring its "A" game and hope that SD has its "C" game for us to win. Remember, we should of won both of the games against them this year and Cutler was just thrown into the fire at that time. He got a ton better as the season went on and if we would of played them later on, I think we would of beat them. Plus, SD folded in the playoffs.
    I suppose. One of the things that jumped out at me in the two SD games is that while watching it seemed like Denver had to work a lot harder to score and prevent scores than SD did. SD has the ability to "flip the switch" and just rely on their talent, kind of like a big college team when playing a cupcake. At some point in the game the better, talented team wakes up and lets its talent win the game. A 10-10 game quickly gets out of hand and your left to wonder, "how did that happen" and you get the false impression that your team is a lot closer than they really are.

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  • Alps2315
    replied
    Originally posted by bry422
    I don't think one can overrate the talent of a team when they just completed a 15-3 season. SD is legit. Their core, on both sides, is young and extremely talented.

    As far as Wilson is concerned, I agree he is the heart and soul. I get that, and believe me, I understand how important his role is. He's just not a big play guy. He's not. The same can be said for Lynch at this stage of his career. Aside from the Cincy game, I can't recall anything else of note he did.

    I guess my point is that as fans of our team, I think we may overestimate our players. I just know what I know from watching the games and when Denver plays a team like SD, I see a lot of mismatches. It's the type of game where Denver needs to bring its "A" whereas SD only need to bring its "C" game. The eye test can be quite revealing.
    If you look at the game that Cutler started, both of them, we should of won the first one but that was one of Cutler's first starts. We had a big lead going into the fourth quarter. In SD, we came back and almost won that game. If we can just fix our DL, then our LBs will be freed up to make more plays than they are now. They have to concentrate so much on stopping the run that it hinders them. Al has made a lot of big plays. Anytime we need something to get our defense kick started, what always happens? Al knocks someones head off. I know this was a couple years ago, but remember the Ricky Williams hit? Holy smokes, he still does that, he did it to Dillon, or Maroney (can't remember which), in the NE game. Same thing with Lynch. Look at how many running plays that he made the stop in the backfield or at the line of scrimmage. Yes we do make them sound better but that's bc we are true fans. But Denver doesn't have to bring its "A" game and hope that SD has its "C" game for us to win. Remember, we should of won both of the games against them this year and Cutler was just thrown into the fire at that time. He got a ton better as the season went on and if we would of played them later on, I think we would of beat them. Plus, SD folded in the playoffs.

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  • Alps2315
    replied
    Originally posted by DancingHorsey
    Huh? Cutler wouldn't start his first game for another month or so. We were in that game with Plummer stinking it up actually.
    I thought that he played in that game. Huh, my bad

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  • stnzed
    replied
    Originally posted by bry422
    As the combine rolls around again, please, don't get sucked into 40 times, dead lifts, and cone drills.

    Yeah, those things are important, but ultimately, games in the Nation Foootball League are won by the team with more playmakers/impact players.

    Look at the best 2-3 players at each position in the NFL. Are any of them the fastest, strongest, or smartest player in the league at that position? Probably not. There are expections, I know.

    Every offseason I focus my attention to New England, and their bunch of misfits and castoffs on defense, especially. I'm always amazed at how old, slow, white guys (like me) like Vrable and Bruschi constantly MAKE PLAYS. Irritating to watch as a Patriot hater, but intriguing, none the less. I can't boil it down any further than saying those guys "just make plays" (a bad NFL cliche at this point, I know, but it's what they do)

    Our team, really since the start of the new decade, has been void of special players/play makers/impact players on both sides of the ball. Granted, these players can be hard to find because often they aren't the fastest, strongest, or smartest players coming out of college.

    This lack of big play ability is starting to dry up, thanks to the infusion of players like Bailey, Walker, Marshall, and Culter....(and don't try to sell me on any of our LBs, safeties, or RBs at this point..and if you think any of our LBs are playmakers, then you need to watch more football, and I mean no disrespect)

    but....

    SD isn't going anywhere, boys and girls, even with a terrible head coach. Look at the talent on that team, talent that makes a difference. LT, Gates, Rivers, Merriman, Phillips, Igor, Jammer, Turner, Williams, Neal, McNeil, Edwards.

    I guess the point of this mess is to focus on the kids who can get it done and not on the kids who look best in a uniform. Denver really needs to nail this draft, if they want to keep pace with SD/INDY/NE in the next X number of years.
    So would you rather draft a "Old, slow, white guy (Like you)" who was a great college player, or Champ Bailey?

    How do you seperate the kids that get it done in college from the kids that will have to over come a lot to get it done in the pros?

    What do you say we focus on the kids that can get it done and have the physical skills to excell in the pros?....Like the Chargers do!

    Ya'll may not give a hoot about the combine, but just be glad it's there.....Cause Shanahan needs all the help he can get when it comes to the draft!

    Ask yourselves how many more Paul Toviessi's the Broncos would've taken if weren't for the combine.
    Last edited by stnzed; 02-22-2007, 06:50 PM.

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  • bry422
    replied
    Originally posted by Alps2315
    I agree that we shouldn't just look at the combine numbers. I just don't understand why you don't think that any of our LBs aren't playmakers. Al Wilson is the heart and soul of our defense, Ian Gold is a solid LB, and D.J. Williams would be a lot better if he was on the weak side instead of the strong side. His potential hasn't even been touched yet. Lynch is getting old but his presence is still felt on the field. Just ask Chris Henry about that one (the huge hit on the sideline this year). SD's talent is overrated. Yes LT and Gates are studs. I would say the same abour Merriman but he takes steroids (lost a TON of respect for him). Jammer is so overrated. Sure he can hit, but he can't cover better than 3 CBs on our team. He is terrible in coverage, he should play S. Turner prolly won't be there this year. Neal is getting old. Edwards is a FA i believe. Plus, Norv Turner is their head coach, they are not going anywhere with him at the healm (i agree with you there). I don't think that the Patriots are going to be a big concern this year (considering we beat them last year and the year before). The team that we need to worry about it Indy but we have to take care of our own business. Not worry about loading up on offense so we can score with them. We have to make our team as a whole better and we will have a shot against them. We were in the game against them deep into the 4th quarter and that was Cutler's 3rd or 4th start (I think).
    I don't think one can overrate the talent of a team when they just completed a 15-3 season. SD is legit. Their core, on both sides, is young and extremely talented.

    As far as Wilson is concerned, I agree he is the heart and soul. I get that, and believe me, I understand how important his role is. He's just not a big play guy. He's not. The same can be said for Lynch at this stage of his career. Aside from the Cincy game, I can't recall anything else of note he did.

    I guess my point is that as fans of our team, I think we may overestimate our players. I just know what I know from watching the games and when Denver plays a team like SD, I see a lot of mismatches. It's the type of game where Denver needs to bring its "A" whereas SD only need to bring its "C" game. The eye test can be quite revealing.

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  • bry422
    replied
    Originally posted by jhns
    I like how you say we dont have playmakers but we have far better guys at some positions than the guys that you named on the Chargers. Bailey for one is the best at his position, possibly ever to play there. Walker is a huge playmaker. Our linebackers are some of the best in the league. Lynch has been to the pro bowl every season with us. Have some respect for the team you root for!!!

    I would agree that we have lacked playmakers on offense. We had Portis for a little bit and he was a big play guy for us. We also have had Rod of course. Other than that, we have accomplished a lot over the past 6 years or so with somewhat average talent on offense. That is all changing now though. I think if we get a dominant back, we will have a top 3 offense within the next two years and one that will be near the top for many years to come. Our defense is going to need some work, but we are an offensive team and have a few playmakers there. We could use a lot of work on the d-line and our safeties are old. I think if we got a good d-line and a playmaking safety over the next couple of years, we could potentially be a top 5 defense as well. Our linebackers and corners will be around for at least 4 to 6 years if we don't take serious injury.

    As for the real topic of this thread, I don't mind what the fans think. Everyone is going to want the guys that are hyped. There are guys that get a lot of hype just from a good combine. So naturally, fans are going to want combine allstars. It isn't anything we have to worry about since this team never really has brought in guys like that. They haven't been the best judge of talent that will transfer to the NFL though either. That is a different issue though and they have gotten far better at it the past couple of seasons.
    I stated that Walker is a playmaker, no argument there. As for Lynch and the LB corp., well, yeah, Al and Lynch made the Pro Bowl....big deal. Neither deserved it, be honest. Take away the Cincy game and what else did Lynch do?

    I respect the team, don't doubt that. I love this team. I'm just trying to be objective. This team is lacking players who make plays when it matters most, Champ Bailey aside.

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  • ballen
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane
    There are good points to your thread, fact is Denver is not a numbers team, they reach more times then not to secure the players they want. Something many are overlooking with all the hoopla rumors circulating the boards. I think Denver will continue to draft how they see fit and not by the popularity of the fans.

    I believe they will target the players they want, if they need to move up or down...then they will do such, but not all those whom rise because of the stats are the best players, they may be great athletes...but a football player could be better then an all out athlete. My point in why Marshawn Lynch will be better then Peterson at the next level in my opinion.

    I agree with not buying into the hype, especially when it comes to the combine. I am a much bigger fan on what's been done on the field. However, there are a lot of times when we draft a player(Tony Schefler) that we didn't have to draft at that position. I like Schefler but we could have got a quality pick in the 2nd round and he still would have been there in the 3rd. Its only smart.

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  • UnderArmour
    replied
    Originally posted by skinny®
    If ya want players like L.T. and Merriman...etc. It's simple. Just go 3-13 and get a top 5 pick. Hard do to when you consistantly have a winning record. As far as N.E. , 5 outta the last 6 is all i have to say.
    5 outta the last 6? They enter pie eating contests now or something?

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  • jhns
    replied
    Originally posted by skinny®
    If ya want players like L.T. and Merriman...etc. It's simple. Just go 3-13 and get a top 5 pick. Hard do to when you consistantly have a winning record.

    Not A top 5 pick, like 6 of them in recent years.

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  • skinny®
    replied
    Originally posted by bry422
    As the combine rolls around again, please, don't get sucked into 40 times, dead lifts, and cone drills.

    Yeah, those things are important, but ultimately, games in the Nation Foootball League are won by the team with more playmakers/impact players.

    Look at the best 2-3 players at each position in the NFL. Are any of them the fastest, strongest, or smartest player in the league at that position? Probably not. There are expections, I know.

    Every offseason I focus my attention to New England, and their bunch of misfits and castoffs on defense, especially. I'm always amazed at how old, slow, white guys (like me) like Vrable and Bruschi constantly MAKE PLAYS. Irritating to watch as a Patriot hater, but intriguing, none the less. I can't boil it down any further than saying those guys "just make plays" (a bad NFL cliche at this point, I know, but it's what they do)

    Our team, really since the start of the new decade, has been void of special players/play makers/impact players on both sides of the ball. Granted, these players can be hard to find because often they aren't the fastest, strongest, or smartest players coming out of college.

    This lack of big play ability is starting to dry up, thanks to the infusion of players like Bailey, Walker, Marshall, and Culter....(and don't try to sell me on any of our LBs, safeties, or RBs at this point..and if you think any of our LBs are playmakers, then you need to watch more football, and I mean no disrespect)

    but....

    SD isn't going anywhere, boys and girls, even with a terrible head coach. Look at the talent on that team, talent that makes a difference. LT, Gates, Rivers, Merriman, Phillips, Igor, Jammer, Turner, Williams, Neal, McNeil, Edwards.

    I guess the point of this mess is to focus on the kids who can get it done and not on the kids who look best in a uniform. Denver really needs to nail this draft, if they want to keep pace with SD/INDY/NE in the next X number of years.
    If ya want players like L.T. and Merriman...etc. It's simple. Just go 3-13 and get a top 5 pick. Hard do to when you consistantly have a winning record. As far as N.E. , 5 outta the last 6 is all i have to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • jhns
    replied
    I like how you say we dont have playmakers but we have far better guys at some positions than the guys that you named on the Chargers. Bailey for one is the best at his position, possibly ever to play there. Walker is a huge playmaker. Our linebackers are some of the best in the league. Lynch has been to the pro bowl every season with us. Have some respect for the team you root for!!!

    I would agree that we have lacked playmakers on offense. We had Portis for a little bit and he was a big play guy for us. We also have had Rod of course. Other than that, we have accomplished a lot over the past 6 years or so with somewhat average talent on offense. That is all changing now though. I think if we get a dominant back, we will have a top 3 offense within the next two years and one that will be near the top for many years to come. Our defense is going to need some work, but we are an offensive team and have a few playmakers there. We could use a lot of work on the d-line and our safeties are old. I think if we got a good d-line and a playmaking safety over the next couple of years, we could potentially be a top 5 defense as well. Our linebackers and corners will be around for at least 4 to 6 years if we don't take serious injury.

    As for the real topic of this thread, I don't mind what the fans think. Everyone is going to want the guys that are hyped. There are guys that get a lot of hype just from a good combine. So naturally, fans are going to want combine allstars. It isn't anything we have to worry about since this team never really has brought in guys like that. They haven't been the best judge of talent that will transfer to the NFL though either. That is a different issue though and they have gotten far better at it the past couple of seasons.

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  • DancingHorsey
    replied
    Originally posted by Alps2315
    We were in the game against them deep into the 4th quarter and that was Cutler's 3rd or 4th start (I think).
    Huh? Cutler wouldn't start his first game for another month or so. We were in that game with Plummer stinking it up actually.

    Leave a comment:

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