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  • post-draft musings and ramblings, plus grades. . .

    i know, i know. . . i'm weeks late with this! but i was gone around draft time, and haven't really had a chance to sit down and discuss it-- besides, it's not like there are a bunch of other hot topics relating to broncos football right now. . . i'm sure there are at least a few draft geeks out there who're still interested in talking about it (dream, where ya at dude? ). . . . soooo, here are my (fairly copious) thoughts on the draft. . .


    obviously, first and foremost i am delighted that we finally addressed the defensive line-- i've been screaming for help there ever since we let bert berry go, and i have absolutely seen it as our biggest and most glaring weakness for quite some time now. . . we have tried to scrape by with odds and ends, other teams' castoffs, for FAR too long now-- we were LONG overdue to invest some legitimate resources into the line. . .

    :clap: :clap:


    i do have to admit that i'm not a huge fan of the saturation tactic-- for one thing, it doesn't neceesarily show great confidence in your scouting that you have to draft multiple players at the same position in hopes of one succeeding. . . i don't love the idea that we're incapable of addressing more than one major need in a draft, but i suppose that both times we've done it we really were desperate enough at the particular position to justify it (especially this time!). . . of course, if we'd drafted with better success and foresight previously, we wouldn't have been in that position to begin with, but that's another story-- i've been quite pleased with our last three drafts, i don't want to waste more time complaining about drafts from years ago. . . the saturation tactic worked pretty well last time (and without the benefit of a 1st round pick), so hopefully this one will be equally effective. . . besides, we NEEDED multiple guys with starter potential on the line, so it's tough to criticize. . .

    i also felt that offensive tackle was a huge need, particularly left tackle. . . IMO we only had one OL with legit left tackle feet on the roster, and it was imperative that we find another-- especially with lepsis coming off an injury. . . even if he does come back at full strength, now's the right time to start grooming a replacement anyways. . .

    my strongest lasting impression from last season was that we faded down the stretch because we got pushed around in the trenches on both sides of the ball-- particularly within the division, and that's not acceptable. . . i felt that the team wasn't likely to improve unless we added some toughness and talent on the lines, and after addressing the skill positions in free agency, we used the draft to do just that. . . excellent decision IMO! i fully believe that "games are won and lost in the trenches" has become a cliche because it's the simple truth. . . drafting linemen isn't flashy, but it can pay some serious dividends. . .

    i know a lot of people are disappointed that we didn't get a safety, and while i certainly wouldn't have minded, i think the positions we did address are far more important and necessary. . . we could indeed use some quality young talent at the position, but past the top four i wasn't as enamored with this class of safeties as a lot of other people seemed to be-- and i would have been pissed if we'd taken a safety in the 1st round, at least depending on how the rest of the draft went. . .

    having quality coverage DBs is nice, but even the best secondary can be picked apart when the QB has time to sit back and read war and peace before deciding where to go with the ball. . . besides possibly champ, no DB can consistently maintain coverage for 5 and 6 seconds, and it only takes one guy letting his man get free to give up a big completion. . . adding a top coverage safety would have still left us passively waiting to be dissected, sitting back in coverage and letting the offense dictate to us-- personally, i prefer an aggressive defense that can force the issue and put pressure on the offense. . .

    hiring jim bates was a fantastic move, but he needed some attack dogs, guys capable of pinning their ears back and getting after the QB, to make his schemes work properly-- now hopefully he has those. . . i think we've given him enough pieces to put together one of the better units in the league. . . i can't wait to see what he can do!

    the most obvious target for criticism of this draft was the amount of picks that we traded away. . . some have said that we gave up too much for the picks used on jarvis moss and marcus thomas, and i think that's hard to argue with. . . but as far as i'm concerned, if we were going to pay a steep price to move up, at least we did so to get the D-linemen we so desperately needed. . . after complaining for years about us ignoring the DL, it's tough for me to complain that we targeted that area and moved aggressively to address it. . .

    we clearly went for quality over quantity with this draft, and that's fine with me. . . while i don't necessarily agree with the FO's assesment of our depth, i do see where they would have felt that 6th and 7th rounders would have a tough time making the roster this year. . . if you look at the guys they would have been competing with for roster spots-- guys like curome cox, domenik hixon, louis green, and greg eslinger-- those guys all have the benefit of one or more years experience in our system, and are at least as talented as anyone you're likely to get in the lower rounds. . . of course competition is never a bad thing, but i think the players we brought in as UDFAs were probably comparable to the talent we could have snagged in the later rounds anyways. . . if we got a few IMPACT players, i'm happier with that than adding a bunch of warm bodies and then cutting half of them after camp. . .
    Last edited by dogfish; 05-09-2007, 09:11 PM.
    Officially Objectified by the GPA

    rest in peace, darrent williams and damien nash-- you will be missed!!

  • #2
    now for the grades. . . .


    jarvis moss: B+

    moss is a player i've wanted since early in the draft process-- for the past several years i've been hollering for us to spend the high pick required to get a DE with the frame and explosive first step to become a consistent pass-rushing threat, and moss fits that profile perfectly. . . i think he was probably the most athletic and explosive end in the draft after gaines adams, and he has a TON of upside. . . more so, he was limited early in his college career by a serious staph infection, and as a result he didn't get much playing time-- he should only get better as he gains experience. . . of course, the flipside of that coin is that he's very raw and will take time to develop, but we have several veteran ends who will allow him to develop at his own pace-- if he can contribute as a pass rusher in nickle and dime packages this year, i'll be perfectly satisfied! we saw what kind of impact elvis had last season in that role-- if moss can match his production, he'll be a valuable contributor. . .

    he is also a prototypical bates end, and his primary weakness (run support) will be minimized because bates doesn't ask his ends to focus on that area anyways. . . also, PFW (my most trusted source) indicates that moss isn't as awful against the run as most people believe, and that he has the potential for considerable improvement in that area. . . besides, guys like simeon rice and john abraham have always been considered liabilities against the run, but anyone with half a brain would want those guys on their team. . . and as i've always said about the smaller, quicker speed rushers-- you can't really expect them to dominate the point like a courtney brown type, but he can't rush the passer, either. . . and what the top edge rushers give up in toghness when teams run right at them, they get something back by being much better in pursuit than your typical power ends. . .

    moss is a boom-or-bust prospect, but i like the dedication he showed fighting through the staph infection to continue his football career. . . he's an exciting player who came up HUGE in the biggest game of his career, and i'm confident that bates can get good things out of him. . . sometimes you have to take a chance to get that big payoff, and moss has the kind of upside you want in your 1st round picks. . .


    tim crowder: A-

    best value pick of our draft. . . crowder doesn't have moss' explosiveness, but is much more versatile. . . at 6'4" 272, he compares very well in terms of size and speed to the left ends bates had on those great miami defenses-- trace armstrong (6'4" 275), adawale ogunleye (6'4" 260) and david bowens (6'3" 265). . . crowder impressed with a 4.69 40 at the combine, and generally showed better-than-expected athleticism. . . scouts tend to paint him as an average pass rusher who lacks creativity, but reports from the senior bowl consistently indicated that he showed one of the best arrays of pass rush moves. . . i think he can succeed in bates scheme, which will free him up from responsibilities against the run and allow him to focus on rushing the passer on most downs. . .

    he's also big enough to play a more traditional left end role down the road if bates retires or moves on, which is a big bonus IMO, and he may be big enough and strong enough (30 reps) to move inside on passing downs, which increases his versatility. . . crowder is described as smart and hard-working, and he is a long-time, productive starter from a major college program. . . he's also the most polished of our draft picks, and may contribute the earliest-- i fully expect him to give ekuban a run for the starting job at LDE by mid-season, and even if he doesn't win the job, he should improve EE both by pushing him and by keeping him fresh. . . our DL faded badly last year, and some young legs in the rotation should help a lot. . . i also love that our top two picks both come into the league with championship experience under their belts. . . crowder may not have the same enormous upside as moss, but i believe his floor is actually higher-- he's a solid player who isn't likely to bust. . .


    ryan harris: B-

    not one of my favorite players, but he fits our scheme perfectly, fills a big need, and was a decent value pick here. . . i myself would have preferred doug free, but i do have a fair bit of faith in our FO's ability to evaluate and develop OL talent. . . free may or may not be athletic enough for the left side, but there's no question about harris-- only joe thomas and joe staley were better athletic prospects. . . harris has the quickness to handle speed off the edge, and the mobility to get to the second level in run blocking that we love so much in our linemen. . .

    however, he does come with relatively serious questions about his toughness, intensity and desire. . . i'm not so concerned about his size and strength, which are typical of broncos OLs, but he doesn't have the mauler mentality you'd like to see from your big uglies. . . harris lacks nastiness, and isn't a finisher who'll bury anyone in the run game. . . still, OLs with legitimate left tackle athleticism are damn tough to find, and you can't always get everything-- left tackles with the complete package generally go in the top ten. . . it's the one position on the O-line where you may be willing to sacrifice a little toughness in the running game if you can find a quality pass protector-- especially when you have an extremely talented young QB. . . obviously, none of us want to see cutler taking big hits and piling up concussions. . . i've said several times that finding ZBS prospects in the 6th round is all well and good, but you don't necessarily want one of them protecting the blindside of your franchise player-- we got lucky with lepsis, but alex gibbs isn't around anymore to make lemonade out of afterthought prospects. . .

    harris wasn't a player i was holding my breath for, but i'm not surprised that we picked him-- solid selection in the 3rd, and hopefully our coaching staff can mold him into a decent player down the road. . . the fact that he played for charlie weiss in a pro-style offense will give him a head start, and shows that he has the mental acuity to handle our complex playbook and not blow his assignments. . .


    marcus thomas: B+

    this pick would get an A+ from me if we hadn't given up so much. . . regardless, i still love it! this is the pick that made the draft for me-- after being cautiously optimistic following the 1st day, this was the choice that got me excited. . . the risk is obvious, but well worth it IMO. . . again, you don't get big payoffs without taking some chances, and it's widely agreed that thomas was a top-twenty pick based on talent alone. . . i feel that there's a big difference between bad people, and people who make bad choices, and for now i'm putting thomas in the latter category. . . i make a distiction between college kids who like to party a little too much and guys who have a history of violence (hello, pacman!). . .

    coaches and teammates have both said that thomas is generally a good-hearted guy who played hard, and i've heard several times that he was the most naturally talented player on that awesome florida D-line. . . given the scarcity of Dt in this draft class combined with our huge need at the position, and i think the risk is more than justified. . . obviously thomas will have to keep his nose clean, but if he does this pick can bring tremendous returns. . . hopefully he'll come in understanding the situation he's in (zero tolerance), and will work hard to reward shanahan for sticking his neck out for thomas. . . he's exactly the type of big body we needed, and should be used heavily in the rotation right away-- with the RBs we have in this division, you can never have too many run-stuffers! his familiarity with jarvis moss is another plus, and hopefully the presence of his former teeammate will help him settle in and stay out of trouble (also, denver's nightlife is HARDLY a match for south beach or new orleans!). . .


    overall: B

    a small draft class, and we didn't get any overly impressive values (unless thomas pans out), but we didn't reach either, and that makes me happy. . . we got productive players who've played against top competition, and filled our biggest needs. . . again, not flashy, but it complimented our free agent signings quite nicely. . . our pass rush should be better immediately with another legit speed threat, and moss and thomas may increase the production of warren and dumervil as well. . . this draft made a lot of sense to me, and i'm absolutely elated that we finally went after D-linemen! with that in mind, i give it an A++ for effort. . . .
    Last edited by dogfish; 05-09-2007, 09:14 PM.
    Officially Objectified by the GPA

    rest in peace, darrent williams and damien nash-- you will be missed!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Ill read both posts tomorrow. Its late, I caaaaaaaannnnnnnn.......... (falls asleep)


      My 2007 Adopt a Broncos are Brandon Marshall and Erica Weston

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree 100% with your assessment. The combination of finally adding some top-quality defensive line talent, and getting one of the best in the business in Bates, immediately propels us into contention. I think Marcus Thomas won't have a problem here and will be considered our best pickup (although I'm wondering if Bates is going to modify how he uses him at all, he's not a great 2 gap DT, but excels in the 1 gap system). The addition of some OL depth doesn't hurt either but I agree this is the pick I'm least excited about!

        Thanks for giving us something to talk about.
        To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks, Dogfish. Your assessment was well thought out and a great effort. The only
          place where I would differ is that I would give the Thomas selection a solid "A."
          When you consider that he was regarded a top 15 prospect before his now well
          publicized troubles, the combination of what we gave up plus the 4th round choice
          did not match his true first-round value. Truly, were it not for Thomas' off-field
          problems, it seems Moss would have been selected after him. The bottom line is,
          Denver got away in essence with two first-round draft choices.

          As one who has been critical of Shanny's DAFTing, I am highly pleased this year.

          -----

          Comment


          • #6
            I know this is kind of a pointless discussion and I probably won't change anyone's mind, but I don't think that he used a saturation technique with this draft.

            I believe that we drafted to address four different needs. The DT, and OT are pretty obvious even if the DT gets lumped in with the two DE's as D-line. There is a huge difference between end and tackle.

            Even in your analysis Crowder and Moss have two different skill sets. Moss is a pass rusher and Crowder is more versatile. It would really not surprise me to see both starting down the line Crowder as LDE and Moss as RDE. I think he identified two different skill sets that he wanted the DE's to have and got one guy for each skill set.

            This is quite different from the CB's that we drafted where they were backing each other up.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm superstoked about the Moss pick. He is a boom or bust player, but the kid is an extremely hard worker and had to overcome numerous obstacles.

              What do they say about sports? "It doesn't build character, it reveals it." I'd take my chance on a hard working player with endless potential anyday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Nice post.
                I agree with everything including
                quote
                know a lot of people are disappointed that we didn't get a safety, and while i certainly wouldn't have minded, i think the positions we did address are far more important and necessary. . . we could indeed use some quality young talent at the position, but past the top four i wasn't as enamored with this class of safeties as a lot of other people seemed to be-- and i would have been pissed if we'd taken a safety in the 1st round, at least depending on how the rest of the draft went. . .
                This statement should be read by all who thought or still think that a safety was #1 priority in the draft. Could not have said it better myself!
                I still do not understand how people cannot understand the concept of a pass rush solely generates the results of the secondary's success.

                having quality coverage DBs is nice, but even the best secondary can be picked apart when the QB has time to sit back and read war and peace before deciding where to go with the ball. . . besides possibly champ, no DB can consistently maintain coverage for 5 and 6 seconds, and it only takes one guy letting his man get free to give up a big completion. . . adding a top coverage safety would have still left us passively waiting to be dissected, sitting back in coverage and letting the offense dictate to us-- personally, i prefer an aggressive defense that can force the issue and put pressure on the offense. . .

                I wanted a safety in the later rounds but when the Broncos got Thomas i was totally OK with not getting 1. Wendling would of still benn a cool 6th round pick though....oh well!!
                I agree that Thomas WILL be the steal of the draft!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fan in exile
                  I know this is kind of a pointless discussion and I probably won't change anyone's mind, but I don't think that he used a saturation technique with this draft.

                  I believe that we drafted to address four different needs. The DT, and OT are pretty obvious even if the DT gets lumped in with the two DE's as D-line. There is a huge difference between end and tackle.

                  Even in your analysis Crowder and Moss have two different skill sets. Moss is a pass rusher and Crowder is more versatile. It would really not surprise me to see both starting down the line Crowder as LDE and Moss as RDE. I think he identified two different skill sets that he wanted the DE's to have and got one guy for each skill set.

                  This is quite different from the CB's that we drafted where they were backing each other up.
                  I think you got it down, and I think that your views Dog were very good and was a good well thought out read. I gave you a cp already.

                  Here is hoping all four pan out, that would make me very happy I for one have been very happy wit Shannys last few drafts
                  Last edited by JoRo; 05-10-2007, 07:56 AM.
                  Bronco fan from Packer Land.
                  Lefty Writer on The Sports Show with Woody Paige and Les Shapiro
                  Tweet me @JoRo_5551

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dog, Good post and I agree with most of it with just a few exceptions.

                    EE is a RDE and I doubt that Crowder will be competing with him for the LDE spot. Lang manned the LDE spot last year (which is why we got handed our ass a couple times against running teams). I see Crowder starting form day one at LDE while EE is at RDE. This will give us much better play against the run than EE and Lang did last year.

                    People may not like the Harris pick as much, but I see him as a can't miss guy to take in the third round. He will compete for LT but in the case he is not good enough, I think he will make a fine LG. It is this kind of versatility that makes the pick better than most think. Also, if he had not had his back worked on before his Senior year, he would have most likely been a 2nd round pick at worst. tremendous value.

                    Without the flags for Thomas' character he would have been a 1st rounder, early 2nd at worst. As mentioned Harris was recovering, but was graded a 1st rounder after his junior year.

                    This draft produced 2 1st round and 2 2nd round talents IMO. They will need to prove it on the field, but I think all 4 are starting 3 years from now, and 4 starters from any draft is a great draft.

                    R Ayers - B Cofield - A Haynesworth - CJ ohnson
                    J Anderson - J Beason - DJ Williams
                    R Bailey - P Amukamara - R Hill - A Goodman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fan in exile
                      I know this is kind of a pointless discussion and I probably won't change anyone's mind, but I don't think that he used a saturation technique with this draft.

                      I believe that we drafted to address four different needs. The DT, and OT are pretty obvious even if the DT gets lumped in with the two DE's as D-line. There is a huge difference between end and tackle.

                      Even in your analysis Crowder and Moss have two different skill sets. Moss is a pass rusher and Crowder is more versatile. It would really not surprise me to see both starting down the line Crowder as LDE and Moss as RDE. I think he identified two different skill sets that he wanted the DE's to have and got one guy for each skill set.

                      This is quite different from the CB's that we drafted where they were backing each other up.

                      I agree completely: this was NOT a saturation draft! If all three defensive lineman had been DEs with similar skill sets, than yes, it would be a saturation draft. But drafting a prototypical RDE, a prototypical LDE, and a DT means filling three separate positions and hoping ALL of them pan out, rather than drafting three REDs and hoping ONE of them pans out.

                      I can see Crowder and Thomas starting this year (if not game #1, than by mid-season.) Moss will probably be situation this year...but he may surprise us. Overall: I'll give this draft an A-, for the impact that a vastly improved defensive line will have on the ENTIRE defense.
                      "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." -Yogi Berra

                      "All models are wrong, but some are useful."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        marcus thomas: B+

                        this pick would get an A+ from me if we hadn't given up so much. . . regardless, i still love it! this is the pick that made the draft for me-- after being cautiously optimistic following the 1st day, this was the choice that got me excited. . . the risk is obvious, but well worth it IMO. . . again, you don't get big payoffs without taking some chances, and it's widely agreed that thomas was a top-twenty pick based on talent alone. . . i feel that there's a big difference between bad people, and people who make bad choices, and for now i'm putting thomas in the latter category. . . i make a distiction between college kids who like to party a little too much and guys who have a history of violence (hello, pacman!). . .

                        coaches and teammates have both said that thomas is generally a good-hearted guy who played hard, and i've heard several times that he was the most naturally talented player on that awesome florida D-line. . . given the scarcity of Dt in this draft class combined with our huge need at the position, and i think the risk is more than justified. . . obviously thomas will have to keep his nose clean, but if he does this pick can bring tremendous returns. . . hopefully he'll come in understanding the situation he's in (zero tolerance), and will work hard to reward shanahan for sticking his neck out for thomas. . . he's exactly the type of big body we needed, and should be used heavily in the rotation right away-- with the RBs we have in this division, you can never have too many run-stuffers! his familiarity with jarvis moss is another plus, and hopefully the presence of his former teeammate will help him settle in and stay out of trouble (also, denver's nightlife is HARDLY a match for south beach or new orleans!). . .
                        I would say that Marcus Thomas was definitely the steal of the draft. I don't think they gave up "too much" for him at all! The Broncos were never going to have room on the roster for more than 4 draft picks -- Sundquist has already stated that in his interview on this site.

                        They always intended to trade away the 2nd day picks to move back up and get earlier picks. The move up for Moss cost them a 3rd rounder essentially. You can question the need to move up but Shanahan was convinced the Titans would grab Moss and they might well have, we don't know. Seems unlikely the Giants would take him since they needed help at CB and LT and Arron Ross (their pick) and OT Joe Staley were on the board. But the Titans took S Michael Griffin, who doesn't appear to have been their top choice.

                        If anyone would have grabbed Moss they would have. Jacksonville made out like a bandit because their guy was Reggie Nelson and they got him anyway!

                        I don't know enough about college football prospects to rate them myself for the most part, but Moss made a believer out of me in the championship game against Ohio State where he was just dominating against supposedly the nation's best team. I think he's definitely an elite prospect and will ultimately make a good pass rusher and adequate defender. Yes, he's a bit of a liability against the run, but lots of DEs are these days and it doesn't stop them. You wouldn't exactly call Dwight Freeney a great run defender, but he does alright. Moss can too and Crowder will compete to start at LDE.

                        Thomas just fills a HUGE hole on the team though and that's key. I was NOT looking forward to starting the season relying on Warren and Alvin McKinley as the only starting DTs! Now at least there's some depth, and Thomas should be starting at least by mid-season. By next year he should be a force and within 3 or 4 years a pro-bowl player.

                        That's a nice change from the Mike Myers' and Chukwurahs of the DL!

                        "Wave goodbye to the nice Browncos, Billy! :wave:
                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I cant find much i dissaggree about this post. but i'll try.

                          Marcus Thomas is NOT a space eating tackle. He is in the mold of UT. and could possibly be a very good one. He doesnt fit the scheme well but i like the pick a year or so ago. Mardcus thomas as i understand it is not a guy that is good agasint the run but does get in the back field and dissrupt great. he is a good one gap tackle. Why get a guy that does not fit the scheme. i mean we know he is a good undertackle. I feel that we will need a Power end on the next to him.
                          ..He does not have good leg strength and only had 26 reps i think at the combine. hes gonna need to work on his strength.

                          Jarvis Moss. Great Potential. but i thought we had good production out of Dumervil/Ekhban last year together they registered 13 sacks between the two. I mean what does that mean for Dumervil. heck even Lang. we know lang cannot play Strong Side. so that means essitally we are gonna have four right Ends?

                          Steven Harris. i dont have alot of numbers on him but do you think he can play LDE he is only 285 lbs. i mean i dont think he can start but

                          Tim Crowder. I think he is gonna be one of the highlights from this draft he can play strong side. and has good quickness and speed. was only .06 slower then moss in the forty. he might need to add ten or so lbs.

                          Ryan Harris. i think he is gonna be good in denver is not a good pass protector has a problem with the strong ends. but is pretty good going agasint the speed rushers it is said he can beat most to the corner to drive the DE past the QB. and has great lateral quickness. is said he will be a good fit for the ZBS.

                          I am glad denver went after guys that will play and potentially be great over a few guys that might or might not pan out.
                          The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                          While he sits by his hearth at home.
                          Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                          That he knows nothing at all.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dogfish
                            now for the grades. . . .

                            marcus thomas: B+

                            this pick would get an A+ from me if we hadn't given up so much. . . regardless, i still love it! this is the pick that made the draft for me-- after being cautiously optimistic following the 1st day, this was the choice that got me excited. . . the risk is obvious, but well worth it IMO. . . again, you don't get big payoffs without taking some chances, and it's widely agreed that thomas was a top-twenty pick based on talent alone. . . i feel that there's a big difference between bad people, and people who make bad choices, and for now i'm putting thomas in the latter category. . . i make a distiction between college kids who like to party a little too much and guys who have a history of violence (hello, pacman!). . .

                            coaches and teammates have both said that thomas is generally a good-hearted guy who played hard, and i've heard several times that he was the most naturally talented player on that awesome florida D-line. . . given the scarcity of Dt in this draft class combined with our huge need at the position, and i think the risk is more than justified. . . obviously thomas will have to keep his nose clean, but if he does this pick can bring tremendous returns. . . hopefully he'll come in understanding the situation he's in (zero tolerance), and will work hard to reward shanahan for sticking his neck out for thomas. . . he's exactly the type of big body we needed, and should be used heavily in the rotation right away-- with the RBs we have in this division, you can never have too many run-stuffers! his familiarity with jarvis moss is another plus, and hopefully the presence of his former teeammate will help him settle in and stay out of trouble (also, denver's nightlife is HARDLY a match for south beach or new orleans!). . .
                            Dogfish, as always great post. But I have to disagree with you, and all the others thinking the price we paid for Thomas is too great. I am not sure why everyone thinks we traded so much for him. I dont know if its bc it was 3 picks or what But in reality, we bascially traded a future 3rd pick, for a current 4th rd pck. Yes we added in a 6th and 7th, but they would likely end up camp fodder, with Sundquist already saying they were trying to trade away their late round picks bc there isnt room on the roster. Yes I know TD was a 6th rd pick, so I dont need to be reminded, but he is one of the exceptions. Not much of a change in talent between those late rds and UDFA. SO look at it as basically a future 3rd for a present 4th. Which I think at the very least is a very fair deal. No way would you be able to give up less.

                            Then, evaluating what we did with our 4th rd pick. We got Marcus Thomas. Thomas in the 4th rd is a huge steal. He has so much potential, and as many have said if not for his disciplinary problems he would have been the 2nd DT off the board. I love the upside of this pick. If he ends up being a bust, so be it, he wont be the first. But at least we will go down swinging, being aggessive, trying to get a player with pro-bowl potential.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yeah, unfortunately DE doesn't equal DT

                              Originally posted by Fan in exile
                              I know this is kind of a pointless discussion and I probably won't change anyone's mind, but I don't think that he used a saturation technique with this draft.

                              I believe that we drafted to address four different needs. The DT, and OT are pretty obvious even if the DT gets lumped in with the two DE's as D-line. There is a huge difference between end and tackle.

                              Even in your analysis Crowder and Moss have two different skill sets. Moss is a pass rusher and Crowder is more versatile. It would really not surprise me to see both starting down the line Crowder as LDE and Moss as RDE. I think he identified two different skill sets that he wanted the DE's to have and got one guy for each skill set.

                              This is quite different from the CB's that we drafted where they were backing each other up.
                              I'm hoping for Crowder, Thomas, Warren, Ekuban as the starters, but I really would've felt better with 2 DTs and a DE rather than the reverse. We had three good ends and only one DT worthy of the name, so I'm hoping Thomas keeps his nose clean and lives up to his hype. I still have concerns about depth though, in part because we wisely rotate linemen in the middle as well as the ends. Mainly though it's because to have a solid middle all year we need all but one of the following:

                              1) Thomas to justify his pick,

                              2) McKinley to justify his signing,

                              3) Harris (Steven, that is) to justify HIS signing or

                              4) Burton, Gordon or Veal to justify keeping them.

                              Otherwise we may have Warren and a couple good undertackles, and while they can spell each other, they can't help Warren much. It was asking him to be an every down dominator I think hurt us so badly last year.

                              After our LB issues with D.J. moving to Defensive QB for the first time in his pro career and the need for a SLB who can cover and run stop this is my biggest concern. I'd like to have seen us draft another DT and a good MLB prospect, but the front office seemed to think DE was our biggest need. Hopefully they're basing that on more than complaints from the fan base and putting DT and LB second will be OK. A lot depends on how Holdman and Lewis perform; the front office seems to like Holdman, so fingers crossed. I like a lot of what we've done, even if I feel like they caved a little picking DE twice off the top.

                              Again, hoping for Crowder, Thomas, Warren and Ekuban, with Moss and Dumervil taking turns coming in on DE (OK, your LT doesn't suck; how's your RT...?) Unless Crowder really can be a killer pass rusher and run stopper, in which case Ekuban gives us some scary run stoppers and Dumervil a scary pass rush. Where that leaves Lang and Moss I'm not sure; like I said, I would've drafted 2 DTs and an end, if I drafted any ends at all. Hopefully McKinley can back Warren and Harris (the DT, not the OT) can back Thomas or we still have depth issues inside, despite the explosion of talent at end. I thought our ends were good last year, but with only one decent tackle and him hurt a lot as a result there were blockers free to deal with them. Things look better now, but that and LB remain concerns (though they're my only real concerns).
                              Last edited by Morambar; 05-10-2007, 07:10 PM.
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