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post-draft musings and ramblings, plus grades. . .

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  • #16
    Originally posted by topscribe
    Thanks, Dogfish. Your assessment was well thought out and a great effort. The only
    place where I would differ is that I would give the Thomas selection a solid "A."
    When you consider that he was regarded a top 15 prospect before his now well
    publicized troubles, the combination of what we gave up plus the 4th round choice
    did not match his true first-round value. Truly, were it not for Thomas' off-field
    problems, it seems Moss would have been selected after him. The bottom line is,
    Denver got away in essence with two first-round draft choices.

    As one who has been critical of Shanny's Drafting, I am highly pleased this year.

    -----
    I think Dogfish gave Thomas' drafting a B because of what we had to give up to get him.

    I do agree with you Top that we in essence got two first round picks. If Thomas had not made mistakes he did there is no way we get to draft him.
    John 11: 25-27

    My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



    Thanks Snk16

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ydave77
      Dogfish, as always great post. But I have to disagree with you, and all the others thinking the price we paid for Thomas is too great. I am not sure why everyone thinks we traded so much for him. I dont know if its bc it was 3 picks or what But in reality, we bascially traded a future 3rd pick, for a current 4th rd pck. Yes we added in a 6th and 7th, but they would likely end up camp fodder, with Sundquist already saying they were trying to trade away their late round picks bc there isnt room on the roster. Yes I know TD was a 6th rd pick, so I dont need to be reminded, but he is one of the exceptions. Not much of a change in talent between those late rds and UDFA. SO look at it as basically a future 3rd for a present 4th. Which I think at the very least is a very fair deal. No way would you be able to give up less.

      Then, evaluating what we did with our 4th rd pick. We got Marcus Thomas. Thomas in the 4th rd is a huge steal. He has so much potential, and as many have said if not for his disciplinary problems he would have been the 2nd DT off the board. I love the upside of this pick. If he ends up being a bust, so be it, he wont be the first. But at least we will go down swinging, being aggessive, trying to get a player with pro-bowl potential.
      I have to agree with this.

      How can anybody say that trading a 3rd round pick next year is giving up too much for a 4th rounder this year? The 6th and 7th round picks don't count!

      Sundquist has said that they didn't even have their 6th round guy making the team!

      It's just ridiculous to expect to draft a T.D. or Tom Brady in the 6th round. That might happen once a decade. If you went over all the 6th round picks of the entire 1980's how many Hall of Fame or even pro-bowl players would you find?

      There's T.D. in the 80's and Tom Brady in the 90's and that's it. Don't hold your breath.

      The only reason other GMs didn't take Thomas in the 2nd or 3rd round was that they were afraid to. They were afraid to take a chance and have their team criticized for taking a player with "off-field issues."
      sigpic

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Cugel
        I have to agree with this.

        How can anybody say that trading a 3rd round pick next year is giving up too much for a 4th rounder this year? The 6th and 7th round picks don't count!

        Sundquist has said that they didn't even have their 6th round guy making the team!

        It's just ridiculous to expect to draft a T.D. or Tom Brady in the 6th round. That might happen once a decade. If you went over all the 6th round picks of the entire 1980's how many Hall of Fame or even pro-bowl players would you find?

        There's T.D. in the 80's and Tom Brady in the 90's and that's it. Don't hold your breath.

        The only reason other GMs didn't take Thomas in the 2nd or 3rd round was that they were afraid to. They were afraid to take a chance and have their team criticized for taking a player with "off-field issues."
        I'm in agreement that the price wasn't to high. Although we don't know how he'll turn out it still looks like Shanahan was will give up quanity for quality.
        John 11: 25-27

        My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



        Thanks Snk16

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cugel
          I have to agree with this.

          How can anybody say that trading a 3rd round pick next year is giving up too much for a 4th rounder this year? The 6th and 7th round picks don't count!

          Sundquist has said that they didn't even have their 6th round guy making the team!

          It's just ridiculous to expect to draft a T.D. or Tom Brady in the 6th round. That might happen once a decade. If you went over all the 6th round picks of the entire 1980's how many Hall of Fame or even pro-bowl players would you find?

          There's T.D. in the 80's and Tom Brady in the 90's and that's it. Don't hold your breath.

          The only reason other GMs didn't take Thomas in the 2nd or 3rd round was that they were afraid to. They were afraid to take a chance and have their team criticized for taking a player with "off-field issues."
          Heck! The Broncos 2nd and 3rd round picks have a hard time sticking around for very long........

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cugel
            I have to agree with this.

            How can anybody say that trading a 3rd round pick next year is giving up too much for a 4th rounder this year? The 6th and 7th round picks don't count!

            Sundquist has said that they didn't even have their 6th round guy making the team!

            It's just ridiculous to expect to draft a T.D. or Tom Brady in the 6th round. That might happen once a decade. If you went over all the 6th round picks of the entire 1980's how many Hall of Fame or even pro-bowl players would you find?

            There's T.D. in the 80's and Tom Brady in the 90's and that's it. Don't hold your breath.

            The only reason other GMs didn't take Thomas in the 2nd or 3rd round was that they were afraid to. They were afraid to take a chance and have their team criticized for taking a player with "off-field issues."
            Umm...TD-90's and Brady-00's

            Comment


            • #21
              thanks for the responses, guys. . .






              a few more points. . . if you re-read my initial post, i never said that we gave up too much for marcus thomas, nor did i intend to imply that. . . that pick was actually my favorite of our whole draft! however i will stick by my opinion that we gave up a lot-- IMO 3 picks is always a high price to pay for one, especially when one of them will end up being a higher pick than the one we received. . . thomas' value really doesn't change the equation IMO. . .

              also. . . though i've got as much homer in me as the next guy, i at least TRY to be objective when writing analysis, and i just don't think that any discussion of marcus thomas is complete or entirely accurate without mention of his supposed character concerns. . . every single team passed on this guy with 1st round talent at least 2-3 times, so it's tough for me to think that there isn't some legit cause for concern. . . remember, thomas was kicked off of his college team, and was actually out of football for most of the year! as i said before, you sometimes have to take risks to get the big payoff, and i'm definitely glad that we did-- but i'm not willing to simply sweep his past problems under the rug and pretend that they never happened. . . he's gotten his second chance, now it's up to him to make the most of it. . . but i won't call him a steal until he proves it. . . given that teams can now be held accountable for the actions of "bad" characters whom they draft, i think this is the most prudent course of action. . . if he gets busted again and is cut before training camp, no one will be celebrating what a great value pick he was. . . every pick has a level of risk of course, but thomas clearly brings a higher level of risk than your typical player-- hopefully it will work out. . .


              i wondered whether anyone would take issue with the term "saturation". . . fan in exile makes some good point, and i definitely see where he's coming from. . . of course, if you want to get technical, you could also say that drafting three corners wasn't saturation, either-- teams can have as many as four or even five of them on the field at one time! you could easily argue that we were hoping to get one starting corner plus a nickel back and a dime back/return specialist. . .

              ultimately, it's just semantics. . . i'm looking at it in terms of units rather than individual positions, and can just as easily see where others would take the other view. . . as to the underlying point i was getting at-- i hope that in the future, we are more pro-active and effective with our drafting, and that we don't ignore one unit to the point where we HAVE to spend most of our draft there. . .

              for example. . . i'm not particularly unhappy that we didn't draft a safety (past the top four, i really don't think any of the available guys would have been much of an upgrade over what we've got), but i sure hope that we get one next year. . . as opposed to, say, waiting until 2009, and suddenly you're in a position where lynch and ferguson have both retired, and brandon is at the end of his contract-- then you're desperate, and you have to draft 2-3 safeties, whether they be free safeties or strong safeties. . . IMO it's just NOT the best way to approach it. . . i'd rather look ahead a little bit, draft for needs BEFORE they become desperate when at all possible, and give the young guys a year or so to learn before they're tossed in the fire as our only options at the position. . . that also tends to save you money because you're not looking for quick fixes in free agency all the time. . . we've generally done a good job of keeping the OL stocked this way-- hopefully we can do so with more positions in the future. . .


              broncosinindy also makes a good point about thomas. . . i was remiss to use the term "run-stuffer"-- i should have stuck to calling him a big body, and it was indeed something we needed badly. . . it's correct that he's supposed to be at his best as a penetrator rather than a space-eater, although i have seen a fair bit of discrepency as to whether he's CAPABLE of being a nosetackle. . . he does project best as an undertackle, but with a 6'3" 315 pound frame, he certainly has the bulk to play NT if he can continue to build his strength. . . PFW says that he's a solid weight-room worker who needs to play with a broader base to translate his strength to the field (i know he didn't impress with his bench press reps, but upper-body strength probably isn't AS important as core strength). . .

              no doubt rushing the passer is thomas' game, but i have to wonder. . . did we go after him merely to play in our nickel and dime packages? maybe, but i suspect that they think he can be developed into an effective two-gapper with some work on his strength and technique. . . it's certainly not impossible, but it's a bit tough for me to think we gave up three picks for a guy who we don't envision as an eventual starter. . . after going after dre bly and jarvis moss (ideal fits for bates scheme), it seems that he is intending to play the same type of D he has in the past, and thomas won't start if he can't learn to control two gaps. . . we'll see what happens, but as someone previously pointed out, he will be quite valuable just adding some badly needed interior push to collapse the pocket. . .



              my ultimate sentiments regarding this draft. . .





              draft defensive linemen?


              BRILLIANT!!
              Officially Objectified by the GPA

              rest in peace, darrent williams and damien nash-- you will be missed!!

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