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  • Originally posted by Cugel
    All you Bronco fans ought to remember how horrible it was in the playoff game against the Ravens when Adams and Tony "Goose" Saragusa just completely shut down the run. I think we got about 60 yards rushing for the game or something and Ray Lewis ran all over the field.

    He could do that because nobody could get to him to block him. Goose and Adams made sure of that.

    If Adams is committed to getting in shape and his knee is 100% or close to it, he's just he player Denver needs to really have a chance to win a playoff game.

    I was concerned that despite the draft picks we've spent on DL there really wouldn't be that much immediate impact from rookies.

    And Veal and McKinley alternating as starting DTs opposite Warren just didn't inspire me with a whole lot of confidence in a division with LJ and LT!

    Now it's totally different. The Broncos now have 4 decent DTs in Warren, Thomas, McKinley and Adams. Then such scrubs as Antwon Burton and Veal can fill in where needed or in an emergency instead of being relied on as core contributors.

    It will make a HUGE difference!

    This actually gives Denver a good chance of winning a playoff game and advancing to the AFC Championship with the chance to play for the SB!

    Of course, most will depend on how Jay and the offense develop.

    But there is now NO weakness at all on defense and that just wasn't true a couple of months ago.

    The DL has gone from being a source of weakness that had to be overcome to a strength! And that's just great.

    Best of all, Adams doesn't have to play 30+ snaps. He just has to be in for maybe 25 plays or so to make a big impact.
    I do have a couple quibbles:

    1) I still think we're weak at MLB; even if D.J. transitions well it'll still be a big drop from him to Webster; I'd be a lot more comfortable if we picked up Randall Godfrey with him.

    2) Except in goal line situations your comparison to the Adams+Goose Ravens and observation we only need Adams for a few dozen plays aren't compatible. If we try to turn Adams+Warren into Adams+Goose our starting DTs will likely be unconscious on the sideline by December and we'll be hoping Thomas or McKinley can provide our new starting NT. I wanted Adams to rotate with Warren while McKinley rotates with Thomas since members of each pair play similar games, and if we do that I'll feel very good about our D. If we try to play both our cloggers a lot I'll be deeply concerned, because they won't be able to hold up to that all game all season.
    SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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    • Originally posted by Morambar
      I do have a couple quibbles:

      1) I still think we're weak at MLB; even if D.J. transitions well it'll still be a big drop from him to Webster; I'd be a lot more comfortable if we picked up Randall Godfrey with him.

      2) Except in goal line situations your comparison to the Adams+Goose Ravens and observation we only need Adams for a few dozen plays aren't compatible. If we try to turn Adams+Warren into Adams+Goose our starting DTs will likely be unconscious on the sideline by December and we'll be hoping Thomas or McKinley can provide our new starting NT. I wanted Adams to rotate with Warren while McKinley rotates with Thomas since members of each pair play similar games, and if we do that I'll feel very good about our D. If we try to play both our cloggers a lot I'll be deeply concerned, because they won't be able to hold up to that all game all season.
      You're hopes for Adams and Warren switching off with each other is probably just wishful thinking. Bates likes 2 big boys in the middle at the same time. Adams and Warren are most likely going to be playing side by side 28-30 plays a game. It could be more if Adams proves he can handle more.

      As far as MLB goes, we are not weak at the position. At least not if DJ is learning the position and doing well at it. The team has already stated that Holdman can play all three LB positions and the new DL could help Webster improve at the position as well. There is no need and probably no intention by the team to sign Godfrey.
      My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
      You Mad Bro?
      Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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      • If Adams and Warren have the endurance to go all game all season, great, but I just don't see how that's possible given their age, recent injury history and the physicality of the NT responsibility. Granted the significance of the last is reduced if they're both playing, but what I dread is the thought of entering fourth quarters with both our big boys gasping for air and having no one to spell them except smaller tackles whose strength is in agility and elusiveness rather than filling space and drawing doubles. With some version of Warren/McKinley and Adams/Thomas starting we have some flexibility and real depth, because if our starting UT or NT needs a break we have someone to sub for either without any real drop off in play. If Warren and Adams are in together and start to tire we don't really have anyone else who can do the things they do.

        I'd be thrilled if Webster became a premiere MLB for us, but I see no indication of that. I'm glad Sundquist feels Holdman can play all three spots, but the fact is we only have one guy with pro MLB experience: Webster, who left me distinctly underwhelmed at the end of last season. I hope D.J. transitions well and stays healthy all year, but the fact is in any 4-3 the MLB spot is as physically demanding as any kind of DT spot, and analyses I've seen of Bates' defensive philosophy indicate it's even more so in his 4-3. So unless we're willing to depend on D.J. playing well and staying healthy into January (or, hopefully, February) we need someone to insure there's not a big drop off in play if and when, heaven forbid, he misses some time. Godfrey would provide that ability in addition to instantly resolving the question of who starts at SLB. However, we've added a lot of free agents, and I have no idea how our cap looks. I don't think Godfrey would have a high price tag so close to retirement, but "cost doesn't matter if you can't afford it".

        In my perfect world Vaughn makes a quantum leap in this training camp and HE'S backing up D.J., but experience in a position that has to read the offense is still an issue.
        SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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        • Originally posted by Morambar
          I do have a couple quibbles:

          1) I still think we're weak at MLB; even if D.J. transitions well it'll still be a big drop from him to Webster; I'd be a lot more comfortable if we picked up Randall Godfrey with him.

          2) Except in goal line situations your comparison to the Adams+Goose Ravens and observation we only need Adams for a few dozen plays aren't compatible. If we try to turn Adams+Warren into Adams+Goose our starting DTs will likely be unconscious on the sideline by December and we'll be hoping Thomas or McKinley can provide our new starting NT. I wanted Adams to rotate with Warren while McKinley rotates with Thomas since members of each pair play similar games, and if we do that I'll feel very good about our D. If we try to play both our cloggers a lot I'll be deeply concerned, because they won't be able to hold up to that all game all season.
          Nate filled in well for Wilson last season.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam24
            Nate filled in well for Wilson last season.
            No he didn't. The SF game was one of the worst performances by a linebacker I've ever seen. So many missed tackles...



            Too soon, D-Will, too soon.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Morambar
              If Adams and Warren have the endurance to go all game all season, great, but I just don't see how that's possible given their age, recent injury history and the physicality of the NT responsibility. Granted the significance of the last is reduced if they're both playing, but what I dread is the thought of entering fourth quarters with both our big boys gasping for air and having no one to spell them except smaller tackles whose strength is in agility and elusiveness rather than filling space and drawing doubles. With some version of Warren/McKinley and Adams/Thomas starting we have some flexibility and real depth, because if our starting UT or NT needs a break we have someone to sub for either without any real drop off in play. If Warren and Adams are in together and start to tire we don't really have anyone else who can do the things they do.

              I'd be thrilled if Webster became a premiere MLB for us, but I see no indication of that. I'm glad Sundquist feels Holdman can play all three spots, but the fact is we only have one guy with pro MLB experience: Webster, who left me distinctly underwhelmed at the end of last season. I hope D.J. transitions well and stays healthy all year, but the fact is in any 4-3 the MLB spot is as physically demanding as any kind of DT spot, and analyses I've seen of Bates' defensive philosophy indicate it's even more so in his 4-3. So unless we're willing to depend on D.J. playing well and staying healthy into January (or, hopefully, February) we need someone to insure there's not a big drop off in play if and when, heaven forbid, he misses some time. Godfrey would provide that ability in addition to instantly resolving the question of who starts at SLB. However, we've added a lot of free agents, and I have no idea how our cap looks. I don't think Godfrey would have a high price tag so close to retirement, but "cost doesn't matter if you can't afford it".

              In my perfect world Vaughn makes a quantum leap in this training camp and HE'S backing up D.J., but experience in a position that has to read the offense is still an issue.
              Well, one day later and your post has been overtaken by events!

              With the addition of Jimmy Kennedy, the Broncos now have an addition "beef package" to rotate at DT:

              Warren/Kennedy
              Adams/McKinley/Thomas or Adams/Thomas/McKinley.

              I fully expect that Thomas will be starting by season's end. We'll see how that goes.

              Demetrin Veal and Burton are now gone. :wave:
              I think Engleberger is also history and none too soon! :wave:

              I also don't think MLB is a concern. The same "drop-off" existed LAST year and the year BEFORE between Al Wilson and his backups. Only Wilson rarely came off the field. I see no reason why D.J. should be any different.

              D.J.'s younger than Al was and is perfectly healthy. Why would he need to take plays off? He'd better learn to be a warrior in there just like Al was if he wants to stick around! This is a big season for him and the Broncos are counting on him to really step into some big shoes. If he can't it'll be time next year to start looking at using a #1 pick on a top MLB.

              But, I doubt that'll be necessary.
              sigpic

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              • Originally posted by Cugel

                I also don't think MLB is a concern. The same "drop-off" existed LAST year and the year BEFORE between Al Wilson and his backups. Only Wilson rarely came off the field. I see no reason why D.J. should be any different.

                D.J.'s younger than Al was and is perfectly healthy. Why would he need to take plays off? He'd better learn to be a warrior in there just like Al was if he wants to stick around! This is a big season for him and the Broncos are counting on him to really step into some big shoes. If he can't it'll be time next year to start looking at using a #1 pick on a top MLB.

                But, I doubt that'll be necessary.

                offtopic, but i think this is a make-or-break year for DJ in denver. . . he's going to be given every opportunity to shine (including a D-line in front of him that should be FAR better than most of the ones al wilson ever had to work with)-- hopefully, this will be the year that he can finally realize some of that potential that everyone's always talking about. . . if he doesn't play at a consistently high level, i fully expect us to make a serious push for someone like james laurinaitis or rey maualuga next year. . .
                Officially Objectified by the GPA

                rest in peace, darrent williams and damien nash-- you will be missed!!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by dogfish
                  offtopic, but i think this is a make-or-break year for DJ in denver. . . he's going to be given every opportunity to shine (including a D-line in front of him that should be FAR better than most of the ones al wilson ever had to work with)-- hopefully, this will be the year that he can finally realize some of that potential that everyone's always talking about. . . if he doesn't play at a consistently high level, i fully expect us to make a serious push for someone like james laurinaitis or rey maualuga next year. . .
                  As I said, I not only agree with you, I think that's a given. Shanahan expects great things from D.J. and he'll have to deliver. But, then he has every chance of doing so and no reason so far to doubt he will.

                  As you say, this defense around him is better than any Denver has had since the SB years. When you look over all the positions, with the exception of safety where Lynch is good but not to the level of Steve Atwater, I'd say this defense is probably better overall than the SB teams (mainly because Ian Gold and Dre Bly are all pro-bowl caliber players) and there never was a defensive player nearly as good as Champ is now.

                  Of course, defense is not why those teams won, unfortunately, so that doesn't mean much. Cutler isn't Elway and probably never will be (no insult there), Graham isn't Shannon Sharpe and will never come close, and there's no Eddie Mac (yet, although Brandon Marshall has potential, while Rod and Stokely could provide that spark this season) and there's certainly no Hall of Fame LT like Gary Zimmerman and no current RB remotely approaches T.D.

                  But, defensively, this is a great team (at least so far on paper).
                  Last edited by Cugel; 06-08-2007, 09:35 PM.
                  sigpic

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                  • Originally posted by Cugel
                    Well, one day later and your post has been overtaken by events!

                    With the addition of Jimmy Kennedy, the Broncos now have an addition "beef package" to rotate at DT:

                    Warren/Kennedy
                    Adams/McKinley/Thomas or Adams/Thomas/McKinley.

                    I fully expect that Thomas will be starting by season's end. We'll see how that goes.

                    Demetrin Veal and Burton are now gone. :wave:
                    I think Engleberger is also history and none too soon! :wave:

                    I also don't think MLB is a concern. The same "drop-off" existed LAST year and the year BEFORE between Al Wilson and his backups. Only Wilson rarely came off the field. I see no reason why D.J. should be any different.

                    D.J.'s younger than Al was and is perfectly healthy. Why would he need to take plays off? He'd better learn to be a warrior in there just like Al was if he wants to stick around! This is a big season for him and the Broncos are counting on him to really step into some big shoes. If he can't it'll be time next year to start looking at using a #1 pick on a top MLB.

                    But, I doubt that'll be necessary.
                    Indeed, that acquisition does certainly seem to indicate we're going for an all beef middle. I'd still like to see Adams rotate with Warren because I have concerns about the formers ability to be an every down player, but with Kennedy thrown into the mix there's a lot more flexibility; we could even start him and Warren and have Adams alternate relief of both. I also agree that McKinley and Thomas don't leave a lot more room for DTs; Burton looks like the most logical choice if we have a sixth one, but who can say at this point?

                    And yes, there was a significant drop when Al left last year: Because he was replaced by Webster, which is the same situation currently. Al's not a young guy, but he's not really old either, and I don't think age caused the injury that probably ended his career; playing MLB did. Why would D.J. need to take off some plays? Because Al did, and because Bates' D emphasizes the MLB even more than Coyers; where Coyer expected more pass rush and run stopping from his line, Bates expects more of both from his LBs in general and his MLB in particular. We'll see what happens, but while it's my only big concern at this point, it's still a BIG concern.
                    SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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                    • Originally posted by Cugel
                      Well, one day later and your post has been overtaken by events!

                      With the addition of Jimmy Kennedy, the Broncos now have an addition "beef package" to rotate at DT:

                      Warren/Kennedy
                      Adams/McKinley/Thomas or Adams/Thomas/McKinley.

                      I fully expect that Thomas will be starting by season's end. We'll see how that goes.

                      Demetrin Veal and Burton are now gone. :wave:
                      I think Engleberger is also history and none too soon! :wave:

                      I also don't think MLB is a concern. The same "drop-off" existed LAST year and the year BEFORE between Al Wilson and his backups. Only Wilson rarely came off the field. I see no reason why D.J. should be any different.

                      D.J.'s younger than Al was and is perfectly healthy. Why would he need to take plays off? He'd better learn to be a warrior in there just like Al was if he wants to stick around! This is a big season for him and the Broncos are counting on him to really step into some big shoes. If he can't it'll be time next year to start looking at using a #1 pick on a top MLB.

                      But, I doubt that'll be necessary.
                      Remember that DJ has really only played 1-2nd downs for most of his career in DEN, on passing downs he came off the field most of the time.

                      This kid should be ready to rock and roll, If they will help him with the calls there is little doubt in my mind he can be a super star.

                      I know everyone loved Al but I just never have seen that he was much a of a hitter if he would have wrapped up those hits he had made, his tackle counts would have been much higher.

                      Comment


                      • Injuries are impossible to predict, and the MLB takes a pounding. I hope D.J. has a Pro Bowl year and never gets an owwie, but I'm not willing to count on it. Especially after what happened to Al last year in a system that didn't use the MLB as much as Bates supposedly does. I know we can't have Pro Bowlers at every spot, but I'm much more willing to compromise on depth for our #2 CB or TE than I am for our QB or MLB.
                        SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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                        • Today is Sam Adams birthday
                          (\__/)
                          (='.'=)
                          (")_(") <-------Post Peach in your sig if you want world domination

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                          • "Many Happy Returns!" Sam. Welcome to Denver; don't forget to turn off LJ and Tomlinsons lights before you leave the field....
                            SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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