A possible hidden premium??

[Dean]

I know that this topic like zombies just keep rising from the dead but here goes one more time for old times' sake. My knock on the 3-4 in the past (I have been one of the strongest opponents) has been that we did not have the type players to run it. Times have changed.

With the acquisition of much larger D-tackles with experience in 2 gap D-line play and very fast but small D-ends, the Broncos have the personnel to throw opponents a change-up. If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses. I am not looking at a complete switch but rather just a series or two per game. This flexability offers the defense several of the advantages that the Patriots have taken advantage of the last few years of keeping the offense off-balance.

I realize that it hinges upon finding D-ends that have OLB abilities and a D-coordinator who could handle both front 7 alignments and their associated techniques. This year, for the first time in a decade, we may have both the personnel and the coaching to make it work.

What do you think? Do you see it as worthwhile? Flame away.

[D3N7ER 8r0I\I<05]

I'm all for it. Especially against the Colts - Peyton doesn't like the 3-4 defense.

That said, I don't think it could work. Sam Adams would be a good NT, but I don't think the ends would be big enough or good enough. How would Jarvis Moss work out as an OLB? and Dumervil for that matter? And Ian Gold is too small for LB in the 3-4, but could he play safety?

Really the only true 2 gap tackle we have is Adams. Warren doesn't like to play that style, Thomas is a one-gap penetrator. McKinley could work as a DE in the 3-4 I think though.

Here's to drafting a legit 2-gap tackle next year: Frank Okam!

[Dean]

I was thinking of Warren as the second D-end. McKinley has played a 2 gap D-end before and it is my understanding that all our tackles this year will be playing 2-gap whether we use 3-4 or not. Lang has played OLB though not exceptionally well and both Dumerville and our D-end draft picks have size and skills for 3-4 OLBs. Gold would have to come off the field most likely.

[jdhdiggs]

The only issue I see is that if we tried to play a 3-4 it would become a 5-2. Who are going to be the OLB's? Dumerville? Moss? They don't operate well in space. Gold? Too small to beat an O-lineman. It's an interesting idea, but we don't have the linebackers for it.

[topscribe]

Dean

Anytime I see your name ascribed to a post, I have to open it.

Anyway, it appears we have the personnel to switch off to 3/4 occasionally. However,
(and you're the coach, so correct me if I'm wrong), it would seem the 4-3 is the more
powerful, consistently . . . that is, if the personnel is there, also. And it is. I just
salivate at the thought of Warren and Adams lined up together on running downs,
then bringing Thomas beside Warren or Adams in on passing downs, at least initially.
With them collapsing the pocket and Moss and Dumervil streaking to the QB, the
linebackers have the option of covering over the middle, dropping, or popping a blitz
of their own. Meanwhile, the backfield has everything covered like a fresh coat of
paint.

Switch off occasionally, yes. Convert, no. IMHO.

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[broncolee]

I know that this topic like zombies just keep rising from the dead but here goes one more time for old times' sake. My knock on the 3-4 in the past (I have been one of the strongest opponents) has been that we did not have the type players to run it. Times have changed.

With the acquisition of much larger D-tackles with experience in 2 gap D-line play and very fast but small D-ends, the Broncos have the personnel to throw opponents a change-up. If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses. I am not looking at a complete switch but rather just a series or two per game. This flexability offers the defense several of the advantages that the Patriots have taken advantage of the last few years of keeping the offense off-balance.

I realize that it hinges upon finding D-ends that have OLB abilities and a D-coordinator who could handle both front 7 alignments and their associated techniques. This year, for the first time in a decade, we may have both the personnel and the coaching to make it work.

What do you think? Do you see it as worthwhile? Flame away.

I think using the 3-4 against certain teams might work. I don't think it would be wise to try to switch form one to the other during games. I like the idea of using the 3-4 against the Colts.

DE- Warren
NT- Adams
DE- McKinley
LOLB- Crowder
LILB- Holdman(or whoever is the SAM this year)
RILB- Williams
ROLB- Moss/Lang

I think if Bates commits to using the 3-4 for an entire game and spends the time prior to that game getting the players to understand their responsibilities, it could work. It's going to take the entire TC just to get the players proficient with his base defense. I don't think he should risk complicating things by throwing in a 3-4 wrinkle.

For those who doubt Moss could play OLB, there were several mock drafts that had him going to Pittsburgh as an OLB(future DE for when Tomlin inserts the 4-3). I believe there were even some that had Dallas taking him as an OLB. There was definitely talk of him being converted to OLB.

All that being said, I doubt we use the 3-4 at all this year or any other year, unless we get a DC that likes the 3-4.

[underrated29]

at times it would be killer

jsut imagine we dont show anything for the 3 4. (although shanny said last year we would do it at times). teams gameplan around us fronting the 4 3. we play the 4 3 until we get to indy, then we show up and line the 3 4. i could see it totally throwning them off. after that, if it works teams would have to gameplan for our 3 4 or 4 3.

i think a 70/30 ratio of 4 3 to 3 4 could really work well.

[gyldenlove]

Come on now people, firstly Bates is not a proponent of the 3-4 front, he plays 4-3. Secondly we lack the personnel to play 3-4, we would need to get at least 3 new players and probably more to be really efficient. Thirdly, with so many new faces on defense as well as a new scheme, the last thing we need is to make things much more complicated by adding a brand new formation.

As for players, we only have 1 player who can be a solid MLB in a 3-4 system and that is DJ. We have no outside linebackers with experience in 3-4, whilest Dumervil and Moss both have the size and pass rushing skills of a 3-4 OLB none of them do well in coverage or takles well enough in open spaces. McKinley was cut from the Browns because he is no good at 3-4 DE, so why try to put him there? The only player I can see play a 3-4 DE currently on the roster is Demetrin Veal.

I think it is a horrible idea at the current point in time, I am not against it in the longer term, but we will need to bring in several players for the idea to feasable.

[Dean]

I think using the 3-4 against certain teams might work. I don't think it would be wise to try to switch form one to the other during games. I like the idea of using the 3-4 against the Colts.

DE- Warren
NT- Adams
DE- McKinley
LOLB- Crowder
LILB- Holdman(or whoever is the SAM this year)
RILB- Williams
ROLB- Moss/Lang

I think if Bates commits to using the 3-4 for an entire game and spends the time prior to that game getting the players to understand their responsibilities, it could work. It's going to take the entire TC just to get the players proficient with his base defense. I don't think he should risk complicating things by throwing in a 3-4 wrinkle.

For those who doubt Moss could play OLB, there were several mock drafts that had him going to Pittsburgh as an OLB(future DE for when Tomlin inserts the 4-3). I believe there were even some that had Dallas taking him as an OLB. There was definitely talk of him being converted to OLB.

All that being said, I doubt we use the 3-4 at all this year or any other year, unless we get a DC that likes the 3-4.

I would consider Dumervil for one of those OLB positions.

To run a 3-4 would require implimentation during preseason. There is not enough time during the game week to install a new defense. As for using it during only parts of various games, the unpredictability of when or if you are going to align in it it one of its greatest values. It gives your defense a change-up. The more options you have to choose from the more difficult for the offense to combat. Once teams know that you can run a 4-3 and a 3-4, you can cause considerable confussion in blocking rules (O-line) and point of aim (backs) by aligning in one but actually shifting to and playing the other.

The more unsure blockers are of where the defense is going to be the greater the defense's advantage.

I haven't seen our D-ends in practice and have no idea how many, or if any, could play the role of 3-4 OLB but there are some possibilities that this present.

[Dream]

I'm fairly confident that Bates will never run the 3-4 here.

[topscribe]

Come on now people, firstly Bates is not a proponent of the 3-4 front, he plays 4-3. Secondly we lack the personnel to play 3-4, we would need to get at least 3 new players and probably more to be really efficient. Thirdly, with so many new faces on defense as well as a new scheme, the last thing we need is to make things much more complicated by adding a brand new formation.

As for players, we only have 1 player who can be a solid MLB in a 3-4 system and that is DJ. We have no outside linebackers with experience in 3-4, whilest Dumervil and Moss both have the size and pass rushing skills of a 3-4 OLB none of them do well in coverage or takles well enough in open spaces. McKinley was cut from the Browns because he is no good at 3-4 DE, so why try to put him there? The only player I can see play a 3-4 DE currently on the roster is Demetrin Veal.

I think it is a horrible idea at the current point in time, I am not against it in the longer term, but we will need to bring in several players for the idea to feasable.

It seems to me Webster would be a suitable MLB in a 3-4. He has some size and a
lot of speed. No, I go along with Dean that we have suitable personnel for an
occasional shift into the 3-4. If it happened, for instance, right along about the
second quarter, that could confuse the heck out of an opposing offense.

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[Dream]

Whether we have the players or not, Bates doesn't run it. So it's really out of the question.

[jhns]

We don't have the best players for a 3-4 and I highly doubt we see anything like that this year. As one poster stated above, we are already installing a new scheme and I doubt Bates wants to learn how to run a 3-4 and teach it to the team as he is trying to teach them all of his current playbook.

I wouldn't mind seeing it though. It could really help with our problems against the Colts. They seem to not play well against 3-4 defenses. I just can't imagine Bates wanting to learn how to run it this year with all of the other things on his plate at this time.

[Dean]

Do you honestly think that a man that has coached as a defensive coordinator the last decade doesn't understand a 3-4 defense? True, he may not choose to run it but saying he would have to learn the defense. I doubt that. If there is one thing that all successful football coaches are adept at is taking what works for another coach and implementing it into their system.

If Bates feels that the defense is picking up his system well enough to beat anyone on our schedule, he won't change and he shouldn't. If he has questions as to how sound the D will be, he will have alternate choices available. They will involve putting his personnel in positions to maximize their chances of success. That's what coaching is.

[jhns]

Do you honestly think that a man that has coached as a defensive coordinator the last decade doesn't understand a 3-4 defense? True, he may not choose to run it but saying he would have to learn the defense. I doubt that. If there is one thing that all successful football coaches are adept at is taking what works for another coach and implementing it into their system.

If Bates feels that the defense is picking up his system well enough to beat anyone on our schedule, he won't change and he shouldn't. If he has questions as to how sound the D will be, he will have alternate choices available. They will involve putting his personnel in positions to maximize their chances of success. That's what coaching is.

OK, I am sure he does know how it runs. Do you really think he has plays written up and a scheme to use in a 3-4? That is what I was talking about him having to do. Just understanding how it works isn't enough, you have to be able to coach it and adjust it to work with your personel. No two teams run the exact same defense in this league.