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  • #16
    Originally posted by jhns
    OK, I am sure he does know how it runs. Do you really think he has plays written up and a scheme to use in a 3-4? That is what I was talking about him having to do. Just understanding how it works isn't enough, you have to be able to coach it and adjust it to work with your personel. No two teams run the exact same defense in this league.
    Ummm . . . Dean is a coach.

    A defensive coach.

    He would be a good one to ask about it.

    -----

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Dean
      I would consider Dumervil for one of those OLB positions.

      To run a 3-4 would require implimentation during preseason. There is not enough time during the game week to install a new defense. As for using it during only parts of various games, the unpredictability of when or if you are going to align in it it one of its greatest values. It gives your defense a change-up. The more options you have to choose from the more difficult for the offense to combat. Once teams know that you can run a 4-3 and a 3-4, you can cause considerable confussion in blocking rules (O-line) and point of aim (backs) by aligning in one but actually shifting to and playing the other.

      The more unsure blockers are of where the defense is going to be the greater the defense's advantage.

      I haven't seen our D-ends in practice and have no idea how many, or if any, could play the role of 3-4 OLB but there are some possibilities that this present.
      Then I would wait until next year to install the 3-4 scheme. I don't think Bates should add something like that while his players are still learning the base defense. The only thing about waiting until next year is that Adams will probably be gone and that would mean playing Warren in a position he really will hate. Maybe he won't mind if he knows that most of the time he will be playing a 4-3 DT.

      Like I said before though, I don't think we will see the 3-4 at all unless we get a DC that likes to run it as the base defense.
      My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
      You Mad Bro?
      Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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      • #18
        Originally posted by broncolee
        Then I would wait until next year to install the 3-4 scheme. I don't think Bates should add something like that while his players are still learning the base defense. The only thing about waiting until next year is that Adams will probably be gone and that would mean playing Warren in a position he really will hate. Maybe he won't mind if he knows that most of the time he will be playing a 4-3 DT.

        Like I said before though, I don't think we will see the 3-4 at all unless we get a DC that likes to run it as the base defense.
        Well, that's one thing I remember about Warren. He said in advance that he would
        refuse to play NT in a 3-4. I don't think that would necessarily apply in a switch-off
        situation during games, though.

        But you may be right about doing it this year, while the players are learning a new
        defense. However, in pro football, what is "new"? How different are these guys
        really going to have to think? Does it take all that long to learn anything anymore?
        What do you think, Dean?

        -----

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        • #19
          Originally posted by topscribe
          Ummm . . . Dean is a coach.

          A defensive coach.

          He would be a good one to ask about it.

          -----
          Is he an NFL coach would be my question to that. If not, I highly doubt he has the experience of scheming against someone like Tony Dungy (or any other NFL offensive genius). It isn't like you can just take a few plays here and there from other coaches playbooks and expect them to work. You have to figure out what your players can do in that formation and then you have to be able to call those plays at the correct times so that they are effective. Considering Bates hasn't been on a 3-4 team, that would probably take some time to figure out.

          As I was saying, I just don't see it happening this season.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jhns
            Is he an NFL coach would be my question to that. If not, I highly doubt he has the experience of scheming against someone like Tony Dungy (or any other NFL offensive genius). It isn't like you can just take a few plays here and there from other coaches playbooks and expect them to work. You have to figure out what your players can do in that formation and then you have to be able to call those plays at the correct times so that they are effective. Considering Bates hasn't been on a 3-4 team, that would probably take some time to figure out.

            As I was saying, I just don't see it happening this season.
            Somehow, I was expecting that response.

            The point is, he is a coach. I am not, and odds are you aren't, either.

            If you and I think we can sit here and figure it out, how much more can he?

            -----

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jhns
              OK, I am sure he does know how it runs. Do you really think he has plays written up and a scheme to use in a 3-4? That is what I was talking about him having to do. Just understanding how it works isn't enough, you have to be able to coach it and adjust it to work with your personel. No two teams run the exact same defense in this league.
              Yeah, I think he has attended clincs on it. Spent many an hour in conversation and with video picking up the finer points. He has compiled information on personnel, necessary adjustments, and any/all information he can glean on the topic.

              When you quit learning in football you become inflexable and are replaced. No matter how good your system is it will have weaknesses. Coaches see where and how others have beaten you.

              Soon you must adapt. Maybe you just alter when and how a certain segment (say defensive ends) reacts to a play. Maybe you have to go back to the drawing boards. Let's face it if the offense knows how you will react to alignment, motion, and what your keys are they are more than smart enough to beat you.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by D3N7ER 8r0I\I<
                I'm all for it. Especially against the Colts - Peyton doesn't like the 3-4 defense.

                That said, I don't think it could work. Sam Adams would be a good NT, but I don't think the ends would be big enough or good enough. How would Jarvis Moss work out as an OLB? and Dumervil for that matter? And Ian Gold is too small for LB in the 3-4, but could he play safety?

                Really the only true 2 gap tackle we have is Adams. Warren doesn't like to play that style, Thomas is a one-gap penetrator. McKinley could work as a DE in the 3-4 I think though.

                Here's to drafting a legit 2-gap tackle next year: Frank Okam!
                I coudl see it like this. Sam Adams and Gerrad Warren at NT. LDE could Be mckinley and thomas. RDE in Ekuban and Crowder.

                i dont know how it would work for the LB's but i could see it going down like that on the line
                The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                While he sits by his hearth at home.
                Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                That he knows nothing at all.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dean
                  I know that this topic like zombies just keep rising from the dead but here goes one more time for old times' sake. My knock on the 3-4 in the past (I have been one of the strongest opponents) has been that we did not have the type players to run it. Times have changed.

                  With the acquisition of much larger D-tackles with experience in 2 gap D-line play and very fast but small D-ends, the Broncos have the personnel to throw opponents a change-up. If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses. I am not looking at a complete switch but rather just a series or two per game. This flexability offers the defense several of the advantages that the Patriots have taken advantage of the last few years of keeping the offense off-balance.

                  I realize that it hinges upon finding D-ends that have OLB abilities and a D-coordinator who could handle both front 7 alignments and their associated techniques. This year, for the first time in a decade, we may have both the personnel and the coaching to make it work.

                  What do you think? Do you see it as worthwhile? Flame away.
                  leave to you to start this again.

                  If Adams were 5 years younger no problem but unless it is done occasionally it is not for me.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JRWIZ
                    leave to you to start this again.

                    If Adams were 5 years younger no problem but unless it is done occasionally it is not for me.
                    I don't know if you caught it but that's exactly what Dean was saying.
                    John 11: 25-27

                    My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                    Thanks Snk16

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                    • #25
                      I'd love to see it...

                      but don't expect it to happen. If we had the kind of personnel we'd need to come up with a minimum of 3 quality 3-4 OLBs I wouldn't spend every night praying D.J. stays healthy as our only first class MLB. We've got guys who can provide the pass rushing abilities of OLBs, and may even have two viable NTs (though IIRC you were the one who pointed out to me Warren left Cleveland because he didn't want to be a 3-4 NT) but I don't know we have guys to provide the pass coverage abilities the OLBs would need. Unless we just had the ILBs sell out on pass coverage every down, but that kind of eliminates the ability to disguise who's blitzing and who's playing pass coverage. On the other hand, if we went after a couple OLBs next year Veal might have some real use as a 3-4 DE.

                      In the mean time, however, I still think of a 3-4 as a system with two MLBs on the outside and two WLBs on the inside, and right now I'm concerned about our ability to fill the MLB spot once, let alone twice. Greg Ellis is 270+; right now our biggest LB is D.J. at 242, and most are under 240. I can't see us running a 3-4 with that. I wanted us to do it this year, but that was when 1) we still had Al and 2) had some draft picks to go after LBs in this past draft. Neither of those things are true now, which is really too bad, but on the other hand we've got a MUCH better 4-3, provided D.J. stays healthy. Or we pick up Randall Godfrey; that would change a lot of things, IMHO, especially since he's coming from a 3-4 (though as an ILB, not an OLB).
                      Last edited by Morambar; 06-07-2007, 07:28 PM.
                      SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jhns
                        Is he an NFL coach would be my question to that. If not, I highly doubt he has the experience of scheming against someone like Tony Dungy (or any other NFL offensive genius). It isn't like you can just take a few plays here and there from other coaches playbooks and expect them to work. You have to figure out what your players can do in that formation and then you have to be able to call those plays at the correct times so that they are effective. Considering Bates hasn't been on a 3-4 team, that would probably take some time to figure out.

                        As I was saying, I just don't see it happening this season.
                        Tony Dungy is many things, but I don't think "an offensive genius" is one of them. One thing I'll give Manning is he's a pretty good play caller, which is probably really good for the Colts; Dungy was brought to Indy because they had a spectacular offense and a defense that was simply a spectacle. Their D hasn't really gotten much better under Dungy; it's better than it was, but only relatively. I still think they're mediocre champions of a mediocre League, the team with the least holes in a League where everyone had some. That's part of what has me so psyched about 2007; we don't have many holes left, and IMHO that automatically vaults us into Super Bowl contention in the current League. If we had two solid MLBs instead of one possible one in D.J. we'd be my favorite for next year, but the fact we don't is why I wouldn't want to see us try to run a 3-4 right now. We've got the linemen for it, but I don't think we have the backfield.
                        SIGN RANDALL GODFREY FOR SLB AND BACKUP MLB NOW!!!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SM19
                          I'm usually one of the people offering a heavy dose of reality to anyone who suggests we use the 3-4, but this makes a lot more sense than it did before the draft. We'd still have to sub out Ian Gold if we used this package, but looking back at Mat'hir Uth Gan's posts on the pre-draft lineman workouts, Crowder did reasonably well in linebacker drills and Moss stood out. I like McKinley-Adams-Warren or even Thomas-Adams-Warren for an occasional 3-4 line, and whoever wins the SLB spot could play a little ILB.

                          It's not something we'd want to make a major part of our defense, but we could definitely use it to throw teams off and not lose too much in terms of talent on the field.
                          As a way of throwing something different at the offense I think its a great idea.
                          John 11: 25-27

                          My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                          Thanks Snk16

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                          • #28
                            Arrrgh! Oh, the humanity and all the innocent bandwith!





                            You have a point though. But, I think the key sentence is "If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses."

                            It doesn't look like any of Denver's DEs are really 3-4 material. Ekuban is here because Cleveland switched to the 3-4 and he couldn't cope. Dumervil, Moss and Lang are out-- too light.

                            Crowder is a rookie, but he might make the transition -- eventually, but you certainly don't want to try that with him his rookie year. Talk about frying the rookie's brain!

                            I doubt that they try it any more this year than last -- unless somehow they can use Marcus Thomas as RDE in a 3-4, and I don't know that he's ever done that or could. I just threw that out in desperation, because we know the others can't!
                            Last edited by Cugel; 06-08-2007, 09:54 PM.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cugel
                              Arrrgh! Oh, the humanity and all the innocent bandwith!





                              You have a point though. But, I think the key sentence is "If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses."

                              It doesn't look like any of Denver's DEs are really 3-4 material. Ekuban is here because Cleveland switched to the 3-4 and he couldn't cope. Dumervil, Moss and Lang are out-- too light.

                              Crowder is a rookie, but he might make the transition -- eventually, but you certainly don't want to try that with him his rookie year. Talk about frying the rookie's brain!

                              I doubt that they try it any more this year than last -- unless somehow they can use Marcus Thomas as RDE in a 3-4, and I don't know that he's ever done that or could. I just threw that out in desperation, because we know the others can't!
                              By your logic of weight all three of the guys mentioned above could play OLB in a 3-4 as there weights are all above 250
                              The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
                              While he sits by his hearth at home.
                              Quickly finds when questioned by others .
                              That he knows nothing at all.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Broncosinindy
                                By your logic of weight all three of the guys mentioned above could play OLB in a 3-4 as there weights are all above 250
                                Say What?

                                None of those guys has ever played LB (so far as I know), it's a totally different skill set! You can take a DE from college and teach him to be a 3-4 LB if he's got the right size & speed as well as talent for it, but you can't just line up guys who've never played it before and have them be any good at it!

                                But, I'm not even looking at that! I'm just focusing on who's going to play DEs!

                                To play end in a 3-4 you have to take on OTs who tend to weigh around 320 or so. If you're 250 or so, they're generally going to blow you off the line!

                                I didn't even discuss who's going to play inside at LILB and RILB. With all the new LBs I'm not really sure about who might fit there.

                                But, it's damn clear that although there are now some fatties at DT who might be able to play DE in a 3-4 not one of Denver's DEs would be able to line up at DE for that formation.

                                Ekuban we KNOW for an absolute fact can't do it, because 1) he didn't want to do it, 2) the Browns released him (along with Lang and all the other Browncos) specificially because they DIDN'T fit into a 3-4 scheme the team was adopting!

                                The Browns were so horrible, that coach Crennel came in and essentially let their entire DL go and brought in new players and instituted a totally new scheme. That probably caused some of their problems in Cleveland on defense the last couple of years! But, what was the point of continuing as they had in the past? They sucked, they might as well try something new they thought might work!

                                So, they instituted a 3-4 (with somewhat indifferent results). But, really which Broncos DE does anybody think could take on double-teams and hold their ground?

                                I mentioned Ekuban, because he's at least 275 or so. The others are even lighter.

                                Take a look at the Chargers and who they have to play the 3-4!

                                LDE -- Luis Castillo, 6'3", 290
                                NT -- Jamal Williams, 6'4", 350 (an elite NT)
                                RDE -- Igor Olshansky, 6'6" 309

                                Or look at the Patriots:

                                LDE -- Ty Warren, 6'5", 300
                                NT -- Vince Wilfork, 6'2" 330 (another elite NT)
                                RDE -- Richard Seymour, 6'6", 310 (pro-bowl RDE).

                                Take a look at the Steelers or any other team that runs the 3-4 well. They've got some seriously big strong guys at the DEs!

                                Now, maybe some of the new DTs would play DE, but they mostly can't or don't want to (like Gerrard Warren who has stated that he doesn't want to play in a 3-4, he would hate it -- another reason he's not in Cleveland today)!

                                Meanwhile, most of Denver's LBs are not really a good fit (as far as I can tell, they've got some new guys I haven't focused on, so if some body tells me that D.D. Lewis, or T.J. Hollowell or Warwick Holdman would be great LBs in a 3-4 I'd have to listen, because I'm not familiar enough with them to know). But, I tend to doubt it at this point.

                                And we KNOW that guys like Kenard Lang can't do it! That's why he's here and not in Cleveland!
                                Last edited by Cugel; 06-09-2007, 04:38 AM.
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