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  • rcsodak
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    We know that because that's why he was run out of Cleveland. He just wasn't comfortable or effective. Warren and Ekuban the same. They didn't like that defense and Warren has said he doesn't intend to play on a team that uses it. He'd be very unhappy having to play it any significant amount of time.
    To be fair, though, Warren wasn't wanting to play in the 3-4 ALL OF THE TIME!
    Plus, he said he didn't want to play the NT, if I remember correctly.

    Seems to many, here, that he could thrive at the DE, though. He loves to attack, which would open up an outside lane for a 'backer.


    And again.....



    ...it'd be only in certain situations, per game.

    Leave a comment:


  • rcsodak
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean
    I was thinking of Warren as the second D-end. McKinley has played a 2 gap D-end before and it is my understanding that all our tackles this year will be playing 2-gap whether we use 3-4 or not. Lang has played OLB though not exceptionally well and both Dumerville and our D-end draft picks have size and skills for 3-4 OLBs. Gold would have to come off the field most likely.
    I coulda swore some quotes of Bates' were posted.....



    ...that said the DT's play 1-gap.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dream
    replied
    Throwing in a 3-4 look every now and then would on'y be effective if the players we had fit the scheme. Some people seem to think since we brought in a bunch of guys, we're can do this sort of thing. Crowder and Moss are not OLB, they were drafted as defensive ends. These players were brought in to fit Jim Bates' 4-3 defense. The two-gap DT's, and the athletic players who can line up wide and get after the quarterback and win their assignments. No to the 3-4, 4-4 and 5-2.

    Leave a comment:


  • AZ Snake Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by JRWIZ
    In sense most teams have to prepare for the 3-4 also as many other teams are stating to employ it. I don;t think htere would be that much confusion factor unless we were to have it ready to go say the week after our free week.
    --- If the Broncos lined up in a 4-3 on one down and a 3-4 the next, I think it would cause the opponents some confusion.

    --- If not a time out, at the very least they would have to call an audible.



    --- Throwing in a 3-4 look a few times a game would be effective.

    --- And why wait until after the bye-week ?

    --- Between now and pre-season, the D should be able to run a few 3-4 formations.



    --- Keep them on their heels !



    ---



    .

    Leave a comment:


  • boxcar
    replied
    Hybrid Defenses(incorporates 3-4 and 4-3 fronts) are the future in the NFL.

    The Ravens and Patriots, and I believe the Dolphins all ran hybrid d's last year with great success. And for what its worth the Cardinals will be running a hybrid d this year.

    The way I see it is it can only benefit Denver to at least explore their options with running the 4-3 with the occasional 3-4 to confuse opposing offenses.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by boxcar; 06-10-2007, 06:45 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JRWIZ
    replied
    Originally posted by AZ Snake Fan
    --- If the Broncos could throw in the 3-4 occasionally, on a random basis, it would terrify the opponents OCs !!!

    --- They would have to prepare for both D-schemes and they would never know when the 3-4 would be thrown in.

    --- Can you imagine the confusion it would cause to the opponent's offense ?


    --- Just showing the look would force them to waste a time out !

    --- Then the D could line back up as a 4-3 ---



    --- Great thread Coach !!!




    .

    In sense most teams have to prepare for the 3-4 also as many other teams are stating to employ it. I don;t think htere would be that much confusion factor unless we were to have it ready to go say the week after our free week.

    Leave a comment:


  • AZ Snake Fan
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean
    IMO, the problems with installing a 3-4 is not going to be the offensive line. D-ends in a 3-4 are glorified tackles. When you look at Adams, Warren, Kennedy, McKinley, Thomas, and Veal (what I see as the most likely DT for the Broncos to keep) we can fill the nose and both DE positions with ease. There is enough talent at LB with our new acquistions to fill the 2 ILB spots (in a 3-4 they don't have to be exceptionally large but bigger than Ian Gold of coarse). These players have to be able to run to the football and cover the middle of the field.

    The question is, do we have the 250- 270 lb OLB types? As mentioned previously, Dumervil and both this year's drafted DEs have the size, agility, and speed to be strong possibilities. Can they fill the bill? I don't have the definative answer but a strong possibility now exists that wasn't there before. They all worked out at the combine with all three going through the LB drills and none of them were rated poorly. Lang has already played 1 year as OLB for the Browns with mixed reviews. I wouldn't expect them to play this for every series of every game.

    Again my original premise was not for the Broncos to go 3-4 on an every down basis. I am not asking that only our present ends to be considered as DEs in the 3-4 nor that only our present LBs be considered to play OLB in the 3-4. I am not saying the Bates will take this action. I am only asking that we discuss it as a possibility to change-up our defensive front to gain an advantage. Could Denver effectively play the 3-4 on a part time basis this year? Would it give us any kind of advantage and if so against whom?

    It appears to me at least that our personnel changes this year allow us the ability to align in the 3-4 if Bates chooses to do that. That choice wasn't there in the past. Could it be done? Would it help?

    --- If the Broncos could throw in the 3-4 occasionally, on a random basis, it would terrify the opponents OCs !!!

    --- They would have to prepare for both D-schemes and they would never know when the 3-4 would be thrown in.

    --- Can you imagine the confusion it would cause to the opponent's offense ?


    --- Just showing the look would force them to waste a time out !

    --- Then the D could line back up as a 4-3 ---



    --- Great thread Coach !!!




    .

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by topscribe
    Yes, I thought of that after my post. Doesn't sound as if Kennedy would be the ideal
    NT. Adams is the one who has the reputation for being "immovable." I was thinking
    of Adams' reputed lightning-quick first step that would be suitable for end, but that
    would also be suitable for NT, too, coupled with his strength.

    Nonetheless, this is all hypothetical, unless they just switched off occasionally, as I
    mentioned before, because it doesn't sound like Adams would want to play that
    defense anymore than Warren has indicated he wouldn't.

    -----
    Hopefully Bates can get Kennedy to understand how important his job will be even though it means he wont get much in the way of glamour.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by SM19
    Ram fans will tell you that Kennedy has hardly been "immovable" in his time on the team. Rotating him with Adams might be enough to keep them both fresh, though. I think 350-pound Sam Adams would be far better suited for nose tackle than end anyway -- if anything, of the two players Kennedy would be the better end.
    Yes, I thought of that after my post. Doesn't sound as if Kennedy would be the ideal
    NT. Adams is the one who has the reputation for being "immovable." I was thinking
    of Adams' reputed lightning-quick first step that would be suitable for end, but that
    would also be suitable for NT, too, coupled with his strength.

    Nonetheless, this is all hypothetical, unless they just switched off occasionally, as I
    mentioned before, because it doesn't sound like Adams would want to play that
    defense anymore than Warren has indicated he wouldn't.

    -----

    Leave a comment:


  • CasualFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    We know that because that's why he was run out of Cleveland. He just wasn't comfortable or effective. Warren and Ekuban the same. They didn't like that defense and Warren has said he doesn't intend to play on a team that uses it. He'd be very unhappy having to play it any significant amount of time.
    Lang did play it for a year. Just not terribly well. So the tradeoff is whether his deficiencies in the scheme are a bigger problem for us than the element of surprise and resulting confusion is for the opposing offense. He might be able to play it quite well for an occasional play here and there against an opposing offense that wasn't expecting it.

    Also, when Warren says he didn't want to play a 3-4, did he mean that he didn't want to play a 3-4 as a nose tackle or play a 3-4 as either a NT or an end? I would think Warren playing it as an end is a significantly different proposition than playing it as a nose. He gets double-teamed a lot as it is in his current position in the 4-3.

    Leave a comment:


  • Broncosinindy
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean
    IMO, the problems with installing a 3-4 is not going to be the offensive line. D-ends in a 3-4 are glorified tackles. When you look at Adams, Warren, Kennedy, McKinley, Thomas, and Veal (what I see as the most likely DT for the Broncos to keep) we can fill the nose and both DE positions with ease. There is enough talent at LB with our new acquistions to fill the 2 ILB spots (in a 3-4 they don't have to be exceptionally large but bigger than Ian Gold of coarse). These players have to be able to run to the football and cover the middle of the field.

    The question is, do we have the 250- 270 lb OLB types? As mentioned previously, Dumervil and both this year's drafted DEs have the size, agility, and speed to be strong possibilities. Can they fill the bill? I don't have the definative answer but a strong possibility now exists that wasn't there before. They all worked out at the combine with all three going through the LB drills and none of them were rated poorly. Lang has already played 1 year as OLB for the Browns with mixed reviews. I wouldn't expect them to play this for every series of every game.

    Again my original premise was not for the Broncos to go 3-4 on an every down basis. I am not asking that only our present ends to be considered as DEs in the 3-4 nor that only our present LBs be considered to play OLB in the 3-4. I am not saying the Bates will take this action. I am only asking that we discuss it as a possibility to change-up our defensive front to gain an advantage. Could Denver effectively play the 3-4 on a part time basis this year? Would it give us any kind of advantage and if so against whom?

    It appears to me at least that our personnel changes this year allow us the ability to align in the 3-4 if Bates chooses to do that. That choice wasn't there in the past. Could it be done? Would it help?

    Ok i am still learning. Could someone please fill me. on what the response ability of a 3-4 end. I am assumeing they are asked to play a 2 gap? and a NT is a three technique?

    Leave a comment:


  • Broncosinindy
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    Say What?

    None of those guys has ever played LB (so far as I know), it's a totally different skill set! You can take a DE from college and teach him to be a 3-4 LB if he's got the right size & speed as well as talent for it, but you can't just line up guys who've never played it before and have them be any good at it!

    But, I'm not even looking at that! I'm just focusing on who's going to play DEs!

    To play end in a 3-4 you have to take on OTs who tend to weigh around 320 or so. If you're 250 or so, they're generally going to blow you off the line!

    I didn't even discuss who's going to play inside at LILB and RILB. With all the new LBs I'm not really sure about who might fit there.

    But, it's damn clear that although there are now some fatties at DT who might be able to play DE in a 3-4 not one of Denver's DEs would be able to line up at DE for that formation.

    Ekuban we KNOW for an absolute fact can't do it, because 1) he didn't want to do it, 2) the Browns released him (along with Lang and all the other Browncos) specificially because they DIDN'T fit into a 3-4 scheme the team was adopting!

    The Browns were so horrible, that coach Crennel came in and essentially let their entire DL go and brought in new players and instituted a totally new scheme. That probably caused some of their problems in Cleveland on defense the last couple of years! But, what was the point of continuing as they had in the past? They sucked, they might as well try something new they thought might work!

    So, they instituted a 3-4 (with somewhat indifferent results). But, really which Broncos DE does anybody think could take on double-teams and hold their ground?

    I mentioned Ekuban, because he's at least 275 or so. The others are even lighter.

    Take a look at the Chargers and who they have to play the 3-4!

    LDE -- Luis Castillo, 6'3", 290
    NT -- Jamal Williams, 6'4", 350 (an elite NT)
    RDE -- Igor Olshansky, 6'6" 309

    Or look at the Patriots:

    LDE -- Ty Warren, 6'5", 300
    NT -- Vince Wilfork, 6'2" 330 (another elite NT)
    RDE -- Richard Seymour, 6'6", 310 (pro-bowl RDE).

    Take a look at the Steelers or any other team that runs the 3-4 well. They've got some seriously big strong guys at the DEs!

    Now, maybe some of the new DTs would play DE, but they mostly can't or don't want to (like Gerrard Warren who has stated that he doesn't want to play in a 3-4, he would hate it -- another reason he's not in Cleveland today)!

    Meanwhile, most of Denver's LBs are not really a good fit (as far as I can tell, they've got some new guys I haven't focused on, so if some body tells me that D.D. Lewis, or T.J. Hollowell or Warwick Holdman would be great LBs in a 3-4 I'd have to listen, because I'm not familiar enough with them to know). But, I tend to doubt it at this point.

    And we KNOW that guys like Kenard Lang can't do it! That's why he's here and not in Cleveland!
    I am aware that Dumervil could not play play LB he does not work well in space. hes not considered fast for a OLB with a 4.75 he has the size but not ideal height.

    Moss i think COULD play in a 3-4 at linebacker. and its a no brainer he does not fit the scheme at DE being that he is way to light and does not have good strength. but i could see him playing in a 4-3 end in bates system due to the fact that they are gonna ask him to rush the passer.

    Lang last year played LDE the strong side did a decent job of rushing the passer but was a absoloute flop at playing the run. he does not fit a 3-4 backer due to his skill limitations in a 4-3 he does not impress me as a LDE he needs to play the RDE spot as that for him is the only fit i see.


    Thomas i think could make the transition to a 3-4 end

    Denver does not have the players strong suits on the d line to play the system.

    Kennedy for being so large from the sounds of it does not have good ideal strength to play nose tackle. sounds like he was blown off the ball alot last year.

    I think denver should FOCUS On getting one scheme right instead of throwing a bunch at them. let them become proficient at one and then a year or so down the line when we have a couple of guys that fit the scheme and dont mind playing the position then you could throw

    I am not a big fan of the 3-4 i like the 4-3 i would like to see denver keep there base defense as the 4-3 and aquire players that want to play the system, or fit it. then if once our guys have learned bates way of game then you could impiliment the occassional 3-4

    you started out saying that OUR GUYS do not have the weight to playin the 3-4 and i simply pointed out they do have the size. i never said they would excell at it just that they did have the sizwe

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  • Cugel
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean
    IMO, the problems with installing a 3-4 is not going to be the offensive line. D-ends in a 3-4 are glorified tackles. When you look at Adams, Warren, Kennedy, McKinley, Thomas, and Veal (what I see as the most likely DT for the Broncos to keep) we can fill the nose and both DE positions with ease. There is enough talent at LB with our new acquistions to fill the 2 ILB spots (in a 3-4 they don't have to be exceptionally large but bigger than Ian Gold of coarse). These players have to be able to run to the football and cover the middle of the field.

    The question is, do we have the 250- 270 lb OLB types? As mentioned previously, Dumervil and both this year's drafted DEs have the size, agility, and speed to be strong possibilities. Can they fill the bill? I don't have the definative answer but a strong possibility now exists that wasn't there before. They all worked out at the combine with all three going through the LB drills and none of them were rated poorly. Lang has already played 1 year as OLB for the Browns with mixed reviews. I wouldn't expect them to play this for every series of every game.

    Again my original premise was not for the Broncos to go 3-4 on an every down basis. I am not asking that only our present ends to be considered as DEs in the 3-4 nor that only our present LBs be considered to play OLB in the 3-4. I am not saying the Bates will take this action. I am only asking that we discuss it as a possibility to change-up our defensive front to gain an advantage. Could Denver effectively play the 3-4 on a part time basis this year? Would it give us any kind of advantage and if so against whom?

    It appears to me at least that our personnel changes this year allow us the ability to align in the 3-4 if Bates chooses to do that. That choice wasn't there in the past. Could it be done? Would it help?
    Theoretically, it could be done. I understood that you weren't advocating a shift to the 3-4 but merely to change up the defense from time to time. Bates doesn't prefer the 3-4 so a total changeover's not happening anyway.

    But, the question is -- can the OLB in that scheme rush the passer. Before you answer "yes" the question is "can they rush the passer from the OLB position!" And I don't know the answer to that. They have speed, but it's a new position and I haven't any idea if they'd be effective.

    But, it sure wouldn't be a surprise if teams saw Denver trotting out Adams, Kennedy and Warren to line up at the same time, while bringing on both Dumervil and Moss or something to play OLB. And those teams would instantly call a pass play unless they were convinced the ends could rush effectively from the LB positions.

    And it's not a given. Lang has good speed and is considered a good pass-rusher for an end. He had 6 sacks last year, which wasn't awful. But, he can't play OLB in a 3-4 defense.

    We know that because that's why he was run out of Cleveland. He just wasn't comfortable or effective. Warren and Ekuban the same. They didn't like that defense and Warren has said he doesn't intend to play on a team that uses it. He'd be very unhappy having to play it any significant amount of time.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    Arrrgh! Oh, the humanity and all the innocent bandwith!





    You have a point though. But, I think the key sentence is "If at least two of our 250-270 pound defensive ends can play an adequate OLB, we could show a 3-4 look to opposing offenses."

    It doesn't look like any of Denver's DEs are really 3-4 material. Ekuban is here because Cleveland switched to the 3-4 and he couldn't cope. Dumervil, Moss and Lang are out-- too light.

    Crowder is a rookie, but he might make the transition -- eventually, but you certainly don't want to try that with him his rookie year. Talk about frying the rookie's brain!

    I doubt that they try it any more this year than last -- unless somehow they can use Marcus Thomas as RDE in a 3-4, and I don't know that he's ever done that or could. I just threw that out in desperation, because we know the others can't!
    The present DEs would not be DEs in a 3-4. The DTs would be. The DEs would
    play OLB in such a scheme. In that, we have the talent. Moss, Crowder, and
    Dumervil have the range and speed to do it. The same for the DE position in the
    3-4. Thomas would be terrific in such a role, IMO. He has size, speed, and
    explosiveness. On the other side, Warren and Adams have the size and quickness
    to do it. And Kennedy would be an "immovable" NT.

    The problem is, as I mentioned in another post, several of them don't want to play
    the 3-4. However, I am sure it would be fine with them as an occasional switch-off.

    -----

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean
    IMO, the problems with installing a 3-4 is not going to be the offensive line. D-ends in a 3-4 are glorified tackles. When you look at Adams, Warren, Kennedy, McKinley, Thomas, and Veal (what I see as the most likely DT for the Broncos to keep) we can fill the nose and both DE positions with ease. There is enough talent at LB with our new acquistions to fill the 2 ILB spots (in a 3-4 they don't have to be exceptionally large but bigger than Ian Gold of coarse). These players have to be able to run to the football and cover the middle of the field.

    The question is, do we have the 250- 270 lb OLB types? As mentioned previously, Dumervil and both this year's drafted DEs have the size, agility, and speed to be strong possibilities. Can they fill the bill? I don't have the definative answer but a strong possibility now exists that wasn't there before. They all worked out at the combine with all three going through the LB drills and none of them were rated poorly. Lang has already played 1 year as OLB for the Browns with mixed reviews. I wouldn't expect them to play this for every series of every game.

    Again my original premise was not for the Broncos to go 3-4 on an every down basis. I am not asking that only our present ends to be considered as DEs in the 3-4 nor that only our present LBs be considered to play OLB in the 3-4. I am not saying the Bates will take this action. I am only asking that we discuss it as a possibility to change-up our defensive front to gain an advantage. Could Denver effectively play the 3-4 on a part time basis this year? Would it give us any kind of advantage and if so against whom?

    It appears to me at least that our personnel changes this year allow us the ability to align in the 3-4 if Bates chooses to do that. That choice wasn't there in the past. Could it be done? Would it help?
    I believe a lot of people are missing the intent of your thread. As I understand it,
    you are not asking whether the Broncos should change to a 3-4. You are asking
    only for a discussion as to whether the talent is now there. Am I correct?

    I also infer that you believe, as I do, that if the Broncos were to play a 3-4, it
    would be only as an occasional switch to confuse the offense. This is what I would
    advocate because I do not believe we have the personnel for a full-time 3-4, but
    it would be fine for the occasional switch. The main reason I believe this is
    because of the assertion by Warren and a couple others that they do not want to
    play in that type of scheme.

    Regarding Gold, I might add that Tom Jackson was about the same size of Gold,
    and Jackson was fabulously successful. However, Jackson also was magnificently
    talented, probably much more so than Gold.

    Anyway, that's my 2¢.

    -----

    Leave a comment:

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