MindField Goes To Camp, Part II/Defense

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season, or more likely traded. There are many teams that need DTs, such as the Colts, and those teams won't be too picky, and we could probably fleece them. That said, our depth at DT is less than stellar, and Marcus Thomas can't be counted on as a long term answer quite yet, so we might be reluctant to part with any player that shows an ounce of talent.


I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried. Hopefully, he's given a fair shake because once Adams wears down mid-way through the year, I think he'll be our most consistent DT.


I hope they fix this white background soon, ugh.

[dogfish]

I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried.

the coaches got to see him play first-hand. . . remember the conversation we had in my TC preview thread where i predicted that mckinley would be fighting for the last DT spot on the team? so far that looks to be how it's playing out. . . though i still see him making the squad if we keep 5 DTs, i wouldn't be shocked to see us go with burton instead-- he's younger and cheaper, has more upside, and is a better fit as a pure DT for bates' scheme (although he's not as versatile, so it may depend on the exact role they have in mind for that spot). . .

i can't see us getting rid of warren this year, but if he doesn't step it up i think next year is when he'll really be in danger of getting the axe. . .


a word about engelberger. . . i said several times last year that i thought he was our most consistent DE against the run-- certainly not spectacular, but consistency is worth something to the coaches. . . as others have pointed out, he's a smart player who always knows his assignment. . . i saw ekuban overpursue badly and lose his containment responsibilities, leading to big outside gainers, on multiple occasions-- admittedly engelberger wasn't in for as many snaps, but it's something he rarely ever does. . . something else i noticed was that he was probably the best of our DEs at protecting his legs against cut blocks, and staying on his feet to protect the backside against cutback runs. . . he is disciplined and instinctive. . . and while he may not have as much base strength to hold the point as ekuban, he's scrappy and plays with good leverage. . . overall, he's pretty one-dimensional, and not a guy to get particularly excited about-- but he's solid at what he does. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .

[Hawgdriver]

Engleberger does an exceptional job of keeping his assignments and funnelling everything back toward the inside or making the play himself. He understands the importance of sealing the outside and makes plays by sealing and then 'richocheting' into the ball carrier.

What Iceman said, plus the fact that the coaches, who are closely watching
and evaluating the talent, are starting Engelberger. That's a pretty strong
argument, isn't it?
-----

It looks like Engelberger has generated some serious momentum. I think it seems like JE/EE will be on top of the chart. I'm a bit surprised, but I like the explanation.

Means What....Ever!

Btw, that's what I'm afraid of! Money losing out to Veal because he's freakin lazy! The Broncos need Warren, not some 288lb journeyman.....

TY for explaining.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season

I would be surprised. I'm not saying I think you are wrong; just that it would surprise me. I think Money will turn it up and tear it up when it's gametime. Many sourpuss TC wussies are actually pretty 'money' when it's showtime--I hope GW is one of them.

a word about engelberger. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .

That sounds very realistic. We might be putting too much credence into the depth chart, since I would think our packages will be always changing based on situation (duh).

[bleedbluorange]

the coaches got to see him play first-hand. . . remember the conversation we had in my TC preview thread where i predicted that mckinley would be fighting for the last DT spot on the team? so far that looks to be how it's playing out. . . though i still see him making the squad if we keep 5 DTs, i wouldn't be shocked to see us go with burton instead-- he's younger and cheaper, has more upside, and is a better fit as a pure DT for bates' scheme (although he's not as versatile, so it may depend on the exact role they have in mind for that spot). . .

i can't see us getting rid of warren this year, but if he doesn't step it up i think next year is when he'll really be in danger of getting the axe. . .


a word about engelberger. . . i said several times last year that i thought he was our most consistent DE against the run-- certainly not spectacular, but consistency is worth something to the coaches. . . as others have pointed out, he's a smart player who always knows his assignment. . . i saw ekuban overpursue badly and lose his containment responsibilities, leading to big outside gainers, on multiple occasions-- admittedly engelberger wasn't in for as many snaps, but it's something he rarely ever does. . . something else i noticed was that he was probably the best of our DEs at protecting his legs against cut blocks, and staying on his feet to protect the backside against cutback runs. . . he is disciplined and instinctive. . . and while he may not have as much base strength to hold the point as ekuban, he's scrappy and plays with good leverage. . . overall, he's pretty one-dimensional, and not a guy to get particularly excited about-- but he's solid at what he does. . . i honestly don't see him playing the majority of snaps at RDE even if he does end up as the nominal starter-- moss looks to be too talented a pass rusher to keep off the field consistently. . . on the other hand, i know i don't feel very comfortable with either him or elvis as a starter when LT or LJ is on the other side of the ball. . .

I'd be surprised if engleberger kept his first team status. Besides, Engleberger has been a standout in training camp before. I think Engleberger is simply showing our young ends how to play the position. As the season gets closer, I think he'll be overtaken by someone.

[!ceman]

I'd be surprised if engleberger kept his first team status. Besides, Engleberger has been a standout in training camp before. I think Engleberger is simply showing our young ends how to play the position. As the season gets closer, I think he'll be overtaken by someone.

Who? Midseason maybe...opener, probably not.

[MindField]

It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season, or more likely traded. There are many teams that need DTs, such as the Colts, and those teams won't be too picky, and we could probably fleece them. That said, our depth at DT is less than stellar, and Marcus Thomas can't be counted on as a long term answer quite yet, so we might be reluctant to part with any player that shows an ounce of talent.


I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried. Hopefully, he's given a fair shake because once Adams wears down mid-way through the year, I think he'll be our most consistent DT.


I hope they fix this white background soon, ugh.

Sorry, MUG, but I doubt Warren is going anywhere....the reports on him have actually been quite good. McKinley may be the player kept because he can play DT and DE at the expense of a Veal or a Kennedy...but who knows. Sometimes you can tell when a player is in serious contention for a job, and sometimes you just catch a practice when they are looking at different guys....we'll see.

I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.

[Dean]

I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.

. . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.

[MindField]

. . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.

Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...

[Dean]

Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...

Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

[MindField]

Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.

[topscribe]

Well . . .

Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

My sentiments, exactly. If the coaches say Engelberger is superior against the
run, then I believe them. No one can tell me that Lang's contract is any kind of
factor at all as to whether or not they are going to start, or even keep, him.
The emphasis is on winning. That's all. Nothing else. If Engelberger gives them
a better chance at winning, then he will start.

I doubt whether they're worried about arm chair quarterbacks to seem to
think they know more about player evalutation than they are.

Thanks once again for your superior analyses, Dean. :thumb:

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[CarolinaPanther]

I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.

Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.

[MindField]

Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.

Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

[topscribe]

Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

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[MindField]

Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

-----

He's not.

That will prove itself out over time.

Shanahan has not always been a personnel guru over his time here...he has made some curious decsions in the past. This just looks like another of those.

If a guy like Engelberger has not done a thing in his previous six years or so in the League, it's pretty naive to think he can just flip a switch and suddenly become a legit starter.

BTW, according to one observer, Lang had an outstanding practice today....it will be pretty funny if he comes back and takes Engelbergers job