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MindField Goes To Camp, Part II/Defense

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  • Javalon
    replied
    Originally posted by dogfish View Post
    i've been complaining about the freakin' browncos for years, including mckinley when we acquired him-- i sure as hell won't be shedding any tears to see any of them go!
    You know, I'm not generally a big critic of Shanny & Co.'s personnel decisions but I do think they screwed up here. Not so much because they acquired all the Browncos but rather because they had to acquire them.

    I don't point fingers at Shanny for any mistakes he made in regards to who drafted. Instead, I was frustrated at what positions he was drafting or, more accurately, what positions he wasn't drafting. If the Broncos had just sunk a 1st to 3rd round pick on a defensive linemen every other year, we probably wouldn't have been in the pickle we were in. But from '98 through '06 we spend exactly two 3rd-rounders and one 2nd-rounder (who never played a down) on defensive linemen.

    I'm a big believer in the philosophy that success in football starts with both lines. I understand that our unique requirements for offensive linemen allows us to find gems (for us) later in the draft. But we have always had the same requirements for defensive linemen as the rest of the league. Thus the lack of attention in the draft paid to such a crucial area completely mystified me.

    This past draft people were endorsing the idea that we trade away the entire draft (and a 1st and 2nd next year) to trade up and draft Calvin Johnson. I can't tell you how that would have ripped my guts to pieces. The emphasis on the defensive line this past draft is exactly what this team has been needing for a very long time. And if one or two of the new guys don't work out we've still got our 1st and 2nd next year to try to make amends.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dean
    replied
    [QUOTE=MindField;1891751]He's not.

    That will prove itself out over time.

    Yes, time will tell one way or the other. However Bates must make these decissions soon and based upon what he believes to be in the best interests of the Broncos' defense

    Shanahan has not always been a personnel guru over his time here...he has made some curious decsions in the past. This just looks like another of those.

    I could be wrong but it looks to me like the front office is pretty leaving the defense in Bates' capable hands.

    If a guy like Engelberger has not done a thing in his previous six years or so in the League, it's pretty naive to think he can just flip a switch and suddenly become a legit starter.

    In terms of number of plays that he participated in last year he outplayed Lang in terms of stopping the run

    BTW, according to one observer, Lang had an outstanding practice today....it will be pretty funny if he comes back and takes Engelbergers job

    . . . and several other days it has been reported that Engelberger was playing the run much better than Lang. It depends upon the day and the observer. The job belongs to whoever can take it from the rest. It isn't just granted to someone. [QUOTE]
    Last edited by Dean; 08-09-2007, 11:04 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarolinaPanther
    replied
    The fact is Engelberger won't be cut at the expense of Lang.

    Our season was cut short because we couldn't stop the run, not because of the lack of pass rush.

    If we could have stopped LT, LJ and Frank Gore, we would have been in the playoffs. The fact is, late in the game, teams would run over us to come back, and they did it successfully.

    Leave a comment:


  • dogfish
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

    Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

    No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

    The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

    McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

    They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.
    i've been complaining about the freakin' browncos for years, including mckinley when we acquired him-- i sure as hell won't be shedding any tears to see any of them go!

    Leave a comment:


  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post

    They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.
    I would have to say that Shanny's camps ARE about competition. He plays whoever puts us, in his and the coaches' opinions, in the best position to win. Rod Smith - undrafted, TD - 6th round.... this list goes on for a long time.

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Originally posted by topscribe View Post
    Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
    enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

    -----
    He's not.

    That will prove itself out over time.

    Shanahan has not always been a personnel guru over his time here...he has made some curious decsions in the past. This just looks like another of those.

    If a guy like Engelberger has not done a thing in his previous six years or so in the League, it's pretty naive to think he can just flip a switch and suddenly become a legit starter.

    BTW, according to one observer, Lang had an outstanding practice today....it will be pretty funny if he comes back and takes Engelbergers job

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

    Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

    No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

    The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

    McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

    They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.
    Who cares if Engelberger wasn't a starter before this year? If he's good
    enough this year, then he's good enough this year. *shrugs*

    -----

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Originally posted by CarolinaPanther View Post
    Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.
    Well, if he was or is so great, why hasn't he been a starter before now?

    Why the need to aquire Lang last year at all? I mean, after all, Engelberger was already here...

    No, Lang was placed with the third team before TC ever started. The decsion on him was made and for whatever reason, the Broncos look like they will be moving on without him.

    The reality is, Engelberger plays some ST's, and Lang does not. Crowder is the future, so they really just need to keep that LDE seat warm for a year, if that. I think the Broncos made the decision to move on without Lang after they drafted Crowder, and that is it. This would not be the first time this sort of decsion has been made about a veteran player.

    McKinley is another vet player that looks to be on his way out...

    They say Camp is all about competiton, but the reality is, that is not always the case.

    Leave a comment:


  • CarolinaPanther
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

    Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

    Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

    Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.
    Engelberger had the best run defense metrics on the team and was almost on par to Courtney Brown's numbers. He had a 2.6 yards per attempt rating which was very good. Engelberger plays great run containment.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Well . . .

    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

    His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.
    My sentiments, exactly. If the coaches say Engelberger is superior against the
    run, then I believe them. No one can tell me that Lang's contract is any kind of
    factor at all as to whether or not they are going to start, or even keep, him.
    The emphasis is on winning. That's all. Nothing else. If Engelberger gives them
    a better chance at winning, then he will start.

    I doubt whether they're worried about arm chair quarterbacks to seem to
    think they know more about player evalutation than they are.

    Thanks once again for your superior analyses, Dean. :thumb:

    -----

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

    His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.
    I thought Lang played OK last year....that's my opinion. Engelberger, to me, is useless. He has never produced anything, and he is not anymore stout against the run at the 252lb he weighs than Lang is, and he is not the pass rusher Lang is.

    Now, we are not talking about next year, or when Moss and/or Crowder develops....we are talking about right now, and Lang is a better player than Engelberger, period. His history says so, and if the Broncos think otherwise, I believe it is a move to a) cut Lang and his veteran salary, and b) because they think Crowder can take over the starters job this season from Engelberger.

    Whatever, they can start and play Engelberger, but he will not produce jack.

    Like Nate Jackson and Mike Leach and a few others that seem to annually make the team, Engelberger and Co. never seem to do much to justify their roster spots.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dean
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...

    Lang was a starting defensive end last year. He had 29 tackles (terrible), 7 sacks (okay), 1 pass defensed, and 1 forced fumble. This is not the things that dreams are made of.

    His tackle numbers or more accurately his lack of them illustrates his ineffectiveness in stopping the run. Though 6 sacks aren't bad, the Broncos drafted young players to fill that defensive niche. IMO the roster spots must be reserved for players who can produce at a higher level against either the run or the pass. It is my deduction that Bates feels that Engelberger (24 tackles in very limited play) can do a better job versus the run while Dumervil and Moss can handle the pass rush.

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Originally posted by Dean View Post
    . . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.
    Actually, compared to Engelberger's, yes it does...

    Leave a comment:


  • Dean
    replied
    Originally posted by MindField View Post
    I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.

    . . . and this is based upon what? Surely not Lang's play last year.

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
    It wouldn't surprise me to see Warren cut this pre-season, or more likely traded. There are many teams that need DTs, such as the Colts, and those teams won't be too picky, and we could probably fleece them. That said, our depth at DT is less than stellar, and Marcus Thomas can't be counted on as a long term answer quite yet, so we might be reluctant to part with any player that shows an ounce of talent.


    I'm not entirely sure what is going on with Mckinley. He's a good player, and while obviously the pick-up of Sam Adams hurts his play time, it's hard for me to understand him being stuck on the 3rd team unless he showed up to camp overweight or did something to get in Shanahan's dog house. The fact that we gave him a large contract suggests something happened to cause him to be buried. Hopefully, he's given a fair shake because once Adams wears down mid-way through the year, I think he'll be our most consistent DT.


    I hope they fix this white background soon, ugh.
    Sorry, MUG, but I doubt Warren is going anywhere....the reports on him have actually been quite good. McKinley may be the player kept because he can play DT and DE at the expense of a Veal or a Kennedy...but who knows. Sometimes you can tell when a player is in serious contention for a job, and sometimes you just catch a practice when they are looking at different guys....we'll see.

    I just can't stand the idea of John Engleberger starting. I don't care what Shanahan or anyone else thinks, Kenard Lang is a better player on Sundays, which is all that counts.

    Leave a comment:

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