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  • #16
    I don't blame Pears for his suckage though he was an UDRFA...

    Glad some other people see that though... it makes me sick to hear that "our Tackles were ok" this past year... there was a reason Graham got no catches... he kept staying in to help Pears...


    If we don't go OT in the first Dream whatcha thinking for there? and how would that affect the rest of the draft...?

    curious as always! I wouldn't mind Williams though in the least and I have a feeling he would win a spot... but I dunno if they are willing to say "we need another LT" badly enough to "give up" on Harris there...

    What kind of RT prospects are there in the draft that would fit Denver?
    Bronco fan from Packer Land.
    Lefty Writer on The Sports Show with Woody Paige and Les Shapiro
    Tweet me @JoRo_5551

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    • #17
      Originally posted by JoRo View Post
      I don't blame Pears for his suckage though he was an UDRFA...

      Glad some other people see that though... it makes me sick to hear that "our Tackles were ok" this past year... there was a reason Graham got no catches... he kept staying in to help Pears...


      If we don't go OT in the first Dream whatcha thinking for there? and how would that affect the rest of the draft...?

      curious as always! I wouldn't mind Williams though in the least and I have a feeling he would win a spot... but I dunno if they are willing to say "we need another LT" badly enough to "give up" on Harris there...

      What kind of RT prospects are there in the draft that would fit Denver?

      I'll chip in my thoughts to your questions and we'll see if Dream agrees.


      *If* we stay at #12 and we *dont* go OT, I only see a handful of possible selections in terms of both draft value and team needs:


      1) WR DeSean Jackson, whom would give us a premier return ace along with a deep threat. He becomes increasingly more likely if Walker is dealt or released.

      2) RB Jonathan Stewart, whom would give us an elite calibur battering ram with speed and hands. He'd fit really well in a platoon role with Selvin Young. And he becomes increasingly more likely if Henry is released.

      3) LB Dan Connor, whom is a great coverage player that would fit in nicely as a WILL in our scheme. LBs are almost always instant contributers as well. I don't think Keith Rivers really fits our scheme as he struggles in coverage and would probably have to be a MIKE in our defense. And I think DJ Williams stays at MIKE. If Ian Gold is released, this pick becomes likely.

      4) SS Kenny Phillips, whom should be an instant contributor also. I'm not buying the hype that he's not a 1st round talent. At least not yet. However, Shanahan has historically undervalued the Safety position in the draft, so I'm not too sure this is our pick even if Philips is considered value at #12 Overall.



      As for OT, I think we'll just simply pick up a Free Agent to compete. One of the Carolina guys (Gross or Wharton) makes an awful lot of sense. Both are young and fit our scheme. We may draft one in the 4th or 5th rounds out of the following guys:

      Kirk Barton, Ohio State
      Duane Brown, Virginia Tech
      Tony Hills, Texas
      Pedro Sosa, Rutgers

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      • #18
        I would be so happy if this was our off-season... I would be stoked!

        My one thing would be: I doubt DEN drafts a WR in the 2nd AND 4th rounds. We have too many needs to do this... WR is a position where we could use help/depth... but only one pick would be spent on WR this draft.

        We need OL, DT, FS, RB, LB & WR... I would think OL, DT, LB would be better spent on multiple picks... Especially since LBs help right away on special teams.

        I think getting a BIG WR is a luxury... Would make sense. BUT, I think DEN takes a gamble on a KR/WR type and goes in other directions with the picks.

        I do agree that we must grab another 2 picks... We have 8 now... We could use a 2nd and a 3rd... Make moves and see what can happen... As you suggest... we could trade down and deal a FOX to grab a 2nd or a 3rd... We could also package a 4th, 5th and something to grab another 3rd...

        I do think we need 6 picks from rounds 1-4. We currently have 4. AND, more so than needing one or two HR type selections... we need 6 solid, productive players...

        a LB (Lofton, Henderson, Mayo, Goff)
        a RB (Mendenhall, Stewart, Smit, Choice)
        a DT (Okam, Sims, Laws)
        a FS (Barret or guy from Michigan)
        a WR (HArdy, Royal, whatever)
        OL help (ANY)


        I think we need playuers like this... from this pool. I would prefer... TWO OL guys... An OT, G/C... then a LB, RB, DT, FS, WR... AND, like you said... Grab a punter with our final pick in the 7th.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JoRo View Post
          I don't blame Pears for his suckage though he was an UDRFA...

          Glad some other people see that though... it makes me sick to hear that "our Tackles were ok" this past year... there was a reason Graham got no catches... he kept staying in to help Pears...


          If we don't go OT in the first Dream whatcha thinking for there? and how would that affect the rest of the draft...?

          curious as always! I wouldn't mind Williams though in the least and I have a feeling he would win a spot... but I dunno if they are willing to say "we need another LT" badly enough to "give up" on Harris there...

          What kind of RT prospects are there in the draft that would fit Denver?
          Jordan Gross, they need a veteran at RT, imo, because the chances are good they'll be starting a very young player at LT.

          I know the word is that the Broncos will not be footloose and fancy-free with free agent money, but if Carolina (Who is going to have to save money to re-sign Peppers, re-sign their LT and find help for Steve Smith) has a hard time keeping Gross, the Broncos should do everything they can to get him.

          He'll get a big contract, but he'll be worth it.

          In the draft, Jake long will be a better RT than a LT, imo......You've watched him for four years, JoRo, do you think he'd better better of at RT? A perfect RT for the Broncos, imo, and I think he'll drop out of the top10. Then, hopefully after the 1st round, there is always Duane Brown.

          Btw, does anybody know if this Dragosavich can handle kickoffs......
          Last edited by stnzed; 01-28-2008, 11:23 AM.

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          • #20
            If Jake Long slips... FOR SURE... He's my first choice!

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            • #21
              If we stay at twelve and don't go offensive tackle:

              Jonathan Stewart or Rashard Mendenhall could be options. Kenny Phillips obviously. Keith Rivers as well. DeSean Jackson and Malcom Kelly are the other two.

              My darkhorse is Reggie Smith. I don't know, but he just screams "Broncos pick." for some reason.

              Comment


              • #22
                Long would be a very good right tackle, and in our scheme I think that would be where he ended up... not sure but he just seems like it to me. I think in some schemes he would be a better LT but I dunno for us... not sure really.. (I wanna see how he works out before I make my choice)

                If he slips I would not mind him at all...


                Otherwise good job guys was a good read


                If we go Gross I wouldn't complain as he would be a good fit... would be expensive though... how much is a RT worth you think? Cuz he may be able to play LT in a pinch but it isn't as good a spot for him... Carolina tried it in the past.
                Bronco fan from Packer Land.
                Lefty Writer on The Sports Show with Woody Paige and Les Shapiro
                Tweet me @JoRo_5551

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                • #23
                  I LOVE your Pre Combine Mock from top to bottom including the FA's although i like Earl Bennet at 44# only based on chemistry with Cutler. Other then that excellent

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dream View Post
                    If we stay at twelve and don't go offensive tackle:

                    Jonathan Stewart or Rashard Mendenhall could be options. Kenny Phillips obviously. Keith Rivers as well. DeSean Jackson and Malcom Kelly are the other two.

                    My darkhorse is Reggie Smith. I don't know, but he just screams "Broncos pick." for some reason.
                    Reggie Smith wouldn't be bad. He has experience at both safety and corner. If we draft him, he would probably play safety, specifically FS. Actually, in terms of coverage, he is probably the best safety in the draft. I've seen him stick to Limas Sweed downfield and jump high in the air for the INT. The icing on the cake is the fact he was an explosive punt returner too.

                    As you can see by this youtube video, he covers a lot of ground and can hit:

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOjZU...eature=related

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Max Power View Post
                      Reggie Smith wouldn't be bad. He has experience at both safety and corner. If we draft him, he would probably play safety, specifically FS. Actually, in terms of coverage, he is probably the best safety in the draft. I've seen him stick to Limas Sweed downfield and jump high in the air for the INT. The icing on the cake is the fact he was an explosive punt returner too.

                      As you can see by this youtube video, he covers a lot of ground and can hit:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOjZU...eature=related

                      He's a good player for sure, but I think his future will be as a Cover-2 CB in the NFL. He and Aqib Talib are very similar players. I keep bouncing the two of them between Buffalo at Pick 11 and Detroit at Pick 15. Speed will be the key factor though and I don't have speed numbers on either. But, if I had to guess, I think Smith will be faster and will go to the Bills at 11th Overall.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Seeing as how Mel Kiper has Jake Long 3rd on his big board it's difficult to see how he falls to #12.

                        The top 10 tend to be consensus picks, the ones everybody would make. It's tough to get those very far wrong, so I'd say Long is gone in the top 5 at least.

                        Historically, the top OT in the draft has invariably been a top 5 pick.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                          It was a well written update and I agree with a vast majority of it. It was a very good read, but here are my critiques (opinions):

                          1) I think Ian Gold played well this season. He's a VERY good blitzer when allowed to blitz. I think he fits what Slowik wants to do and will be our starter this season. Infact, I think all our LBs played pretty well. I put everything on the defensive line (rookies) and ineffective scheme. I'm not sure of the situation with Warrick Holdman, but with Webster and Winborn under contract, I think we are solid at both SAM and MIKE in terms of starters and depth. I think if we do go after a LB in Free Agency or the draft, it will be the typical undersized WILL LB and probably later in the draft, though if Adibi or Highsmith are available at our 2nd round choice, that might be too good of value to pass up. I do expect Highsmith to still be there.

                          2) I think Chris Williams is going to be drafted by the Bears or Lions at #14 or #15 Overall. Both teams' primary need is at OT, and both teams really need a LT and RT. Both need a RT to start immediately and a LT to groom for aging starters. The Bears prefer medium O-linemen, such as Williams, the Lions seem to have a preference for size, such as Otah. And with Alex Gibbs just being hired by Houston, and their lack of a LT, they'll almost certainly be looking in that direction at 18th Overall, specifically Williams or Sam Baker.

                          3) I still maintain that Wheeler is a pure MIKE in the NFL. I think he'll actually be an ILB in the 3-4 defense. He's the prototypical size, along with Beau Bell, that Bill Parcels will be looking to draft. It's also worth noting the 49ers and Jets both need starting ILBs this season to pair with Harris and Willis. Point being, I will not be surprised if Wheeler is gone before we even pick at the top of the 2nd, though I don't currently expect that. I also don't believe in moving DJ Williams to WILL, and with the aforementioned depth we have at MIKE and SAM, I don't really see a need for Wheeler with so many other more glaring needs.

                          4) Obviously I would love an Okam selection, but I don't think he fits into our defensive scheme. I wish he did. I also don't believe Marcus Thomas can play the 3 in our likely new scheme. I think Thomas is the Nose along with McKinley. I believe we need to find a pair of penetrating 3 techniques this offseason. Corey Williams would be one. Someone like Trevor Laws would be another though I think we'd have to spend a 2nd rounder on him now. I think Derek Lokey, Okam's partner at Texas, could be a very viable fifth round selection for us. Also, I still think Okam goes before the 4th round, specifically late 2nd or the 3rd. But I am a bit bias there as I think very highly of him.

                          5) At this point, I don't think Matt Forte or Tashard Choice get out of the early 3rd round. Infact, I'd almost go so far as to guarantee that. It's even possible that one or both could go in the early/mid 2nd. Obviously, they are behind McFadden, Stewart, Jones, and Mendenhall, whom all should be 1st rounders. But Forte and Choice could be the next two backs off the board. The teams that value speed over inside running will likely rank Jamaal Charles next but he's very raw. Chris Johnson refuses to run between the tackles and, and along with Steve Slaton, is some form of a quasi-RB to be used like Reggie Bush. And I think both Forte, and especially Choice, are much better then Ray Rice and Mike Hart.

                          6) Chevis Jackson is a high/mid 2nd round pick for a Cover 2 defense, of which there are many. I personally have him going to the Bills at the top of the 2nd. Perhaps that's a bit high, but he's not going to be available in the 4th round, he'll go in the 2nd. He's just too good and his speed can be masked in a Cover 2.



                          Overall though, you demonstrate a very sound mastery of the Denver needs and talent evaluation as usual. I doubt I could have written such an excellent article and summary. So, I invested some time into making a detailed response here with my thoughts. I'm pretty confident with my listed opinions above, though I could certainly see and understand the rebuttal against Ian Gold and our other LBs. So, very confident in points 2-6, less so with point 1, but I still believe it.
                          Dude, I have never seen someone so insistant on praising a group, such as our LB's, for playing well, that actually never do anything.

                          Go ahead, name a play....a forced fumble, a pick, a sack...anything that DJ Williams or Ian Gold did to earn their keep as starters this last year....instead, you take the easy way out and simply blame the DT's and the scheme....well the scheme was only in place for one year, and the Broncos changed their DT's more than some people change their socks...and what about the other years under Coyer? They never produced squat then either.

                          Frankly, that's why it's sometimes hard to take you seriously, because you never seem to be able to admit when you are wrong, and continue to manipulate stats and spin their results as favorable. Perhaps it's a good thing you are in Law school, and you can use that education for politics, because your take on Williams/Gold is spin control at it's finest.

                          Ian Gold and DJ Williams CANNOT be absolved of the Defensive struggles. It is absolutely impossible. You can't be 26th or whatever against the run, and have great LB play. That just does not happen.

                          Our LB's are part of the overall problem. The fact that they get a free pass from so many is an absolute joke.
                          Last edited by MindField; 01-28-2008, 05:04 PM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MindField View Post
                            Dude, I have never seen someone so insistant on praising a group, such as our LB's, for playing well, that actually never do anything.

                            Go ahead, name a play....a forced fumble, a pick, a sack...anything that DJ Williams or Ian Gold did to earn their keep as starters this last year....instead, you take the easy way out and simply blame the DT's and the scheme....well the scheme was only in place for one year, and the Broncos changed their DT's more than some people change their socks...and what about the other years under Coyer? They never produced squat then either.

                            Frankly, that's why it's sometimes hard to take you seriously, because you never seem to be able to admit when you are wrong, and continue to manipulate stats and spin their results as favorable. Perhaps it's a good thing you are in Law school, and you can use that education for politics, because your take on Williams/Gold is spin control at it's finest.

                            Ian Gold and DJ Williams CANNOT be absolved of the Defensive struggles. It is absolutely impossible. You can't be 26th or whatever against the run, and have great LB play. That just does not happen.

                            Our LB's are part of the overall problem. The fact that they get a free pass from so many is an absolute joke.

                            A mere two seasons ago, our LBs were considered one of the best trio's ever assembled. The NFL Network and ESPN did piece after piece on how our overall defense might be one of the best in NFL history. We crashed and burned after about 9 games, but for the start of that season, we were Godly.

                            I will also offer you the Baltimore Ravens. With Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott, and Ray Lewis, they were arguably one of the top LB trio's in history as well. But when they lost all their D-linemen, the Ravens top notch D was run over. The next year, they draft Haloti Ngata and add more depth to the D-line, and the LB play becomes elite again.


                            I will ask that you please know what the hell you are talking about before you aggressively criticize my opinions. Ian Gold *won* us the Pittsburgh game this season when he knocked Rothlisburger's pass into the air when they were driving late and DJ Williams snagged it. Ian Gold cemented the Tennessee game when he picked up an errant pass late in the game. DJ Williams was one of the most productive LBs in the NFL all season. Nate Webster put up 100 tackles from SAM, which is practically unheard of.


                            The problem was we had a defensive line full of undersized players and rookies. We had no scheme at all. The scheme the team worked on all offseason was scrapped after 5 games. We had nothing.


                            So, yeah, based on history, and hard evidence, and my own eyes, and my own football knowledge, I'll blame the damn scheme and rookies over our elite LBs, which still played extremely well. Baltimore did the same thing and returned to glory the next year, and all they did was draft a guargantuan NT. They didn't fire their LBs.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan View Post
                              A mere two seasons ago, our LBs were considered one of the best trio's ever assembled. The NFL Network and ESPN did piece after piece on how our overall defense might be one of the best in NFL history. We crashed and burned after about 9 games, but for the start of that season, we were Godly.

                              I will also offer you the Baltimore Ravens. With Adalius Thomas, Bart Scott, and Ray Lewis, they were arguably one of the top LB trio's in history as well. But when they lost all their D-linemen, the Ravens top notch D was run over. The next year, they draft Haloti Ngata and add more depth to the D-line, and the LB play becomes elite again.


                              I will ask that you please know what the hell you are talking about before you aggressively criticize my opinions. Ian Gold *won* us the Pittsburgh game this season when he knocked Rothlisburger's pass into the air when they were driving late and DJ Williams snagged it. Ian Gold cemented the Tennessee game when he picked up an errant pass late in the game. DJ Williams was one of the most productive LBs in the NFL all season. Nate Webster put up 100 tackles from SAM, which is practically unheard of.


                              The problem was we had a defensive line full of undersized players and rookies. We had no scheme at all. The scheme the team worked on all offseason was scrapped after 5 games. We had nothing.


                              So, yeah, based on history, and hard evidence, and my own eyes, and my own football knowledge, I'll blame the damn scheme and rookies over our elite LBs, which still played extremely well. Baltimore did the same thing and returned to glory the next year, and all they did was draft a guargantuan NT. They didn't fire their LBs.
                              Well, it's funny how those same 'experts' that praised our LB's (which just proves they have always been over-rated) now say that our LB's need to be replaced (in the case of Gold), or change positons (in the case of Williams).

                              The truth is, all you need to know about Williams is that he has no true position, as evidenced by the fact he is likely to be moved yet again (the fourth time in his five year career) back to the weakside, and Gold is likely to be playing elsewhere next year...and what about the pairing of Marcus Thomas and Alvin McKinely at DT for the last 3rd of the season, which I believe you advocated? What was it then? Poor DT play, poor LB play, or more likely, a combination of both.

                              God help the Broncos if these two stiffs remain at LB for the Broncos next year, because they are part of the problem, not the solution. Your insistance on some sort of fantasy about their play does not make it so.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MindField View Post
                                Well, it's funny how those same 'experts' that praised our LB's (which just proves they have always been over-rated) now say that our LB's need to be replaced (in the case of Gold), or change positons (in the case of Williams).

                                The truth is, all you need to know about Williams is that he has no true position, as evidenced by the fact he is likely to be moved yet again (the fourth time in his five year career) back to the weakside, and Gold is likely to be playing elsewhere next year...and what about the pairing of Marcus Thomas and Alvin McKinely at DT for the last 3rd of the season, which I believe you advocated? What was it then? Poor DT play, poor LB play, or more likely, a combination of both.

                                God help the Broncos if these two stiffs remain at LB for the Broncos next year, because they are part of the problem, not the solution. Your insistance on some sort of fantasy about their play does not make it so.
                                *I've* always believed DJ Williams was strictly a MIKE, so I was excited to see him moved there last season. And I was very excited with his play and he should only get better. So, I would argue he finally was used in his natural position. I would be very disturbed to see us move him to WILL, where I don't think he fits whatsoever.

                                I really liked Webster at SAM. I was very skeptical at first, but I thought he played very well there. His natural position is MIKE as well, so I found it very telling that when Ian got hurt, they didn't move DJ to WILL and Nate to MIKE. Remember that by that point, Coyer's scheme was scrapped and they were running Slowik's version of things. I see no reason why that would change now.

                                I freely admit that Gold has limitations at WILL, specifically with tackling bigger players. But, with two very strong tacklers at MIKE and SAM, as well as playing Lynch up in the box, I think Gold's coverage versatility trumps his shortcomings in tackling. And I still think he tackles at worst, average. But he does miss a few, and unfortunately, they are usually very obvious. His play in zone coverage is less so.



                                At Defensive Tackle, I made the pre-season prediction that Alvin McKinley was the best DT on our roster. I've always liked him at Cleveland, so that was kind of a homer prediction, but it turned out to be true, debateable at worst. I don't think anyone wanted Marcus Thomas to start since he had basically missed a full year of football and was a rookie. He was more of an exciting pick for the future. The fact that we cut/traded our Top 4 DTs (depth chart wise) in the first few weeks was mind-blowing. And that's the reason our season tanked.

                                Everything starts up front in the trenches on both sides of the ball. Our D-line was completely ineffective against the Run, and lackluster in pass rushing. The LBs have to read their keys, and with pulling OGs, FBs, and TEs (because our D-line did not require double teams) they had to fight through trash just to attempt to make a play.

                                I really think that our defense will improve dramatically just as a matter of course this season. All the rookies will be much better due to experience and a year of strength training at the professional level. I think all we need are either NT's to try and clog inside, or else penetrating 3-techiques to try and be a high pressure defense. We need 2 of either, and one of which must be a veteran to start now.



                                But to answer your post, I think our LBs are a team strength. I think our secondary is a team strength. But we need to fix the D-line to see that talent shine. I really believe, just like Baltimore, we are only an elite DT away from being a Top 10 Defense again. Hopefully we can draft/sign one that can be instantly as effective as Ngata was. The lack of a scheme and the lack of either an elite Nose Tackle or an Elite 3-technique is why I believe our defense faltered last season. Having two Quasi-Nose Tackles starting side by side, one of which was a raw rookie, is like leaving the portcullis up when someone is raiding your castle.
                                Last edited by Mat'hir Uth Gan; 01-28-2008, 07:50 PM.

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