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Why the Broncos need to Draft Clady or Baker

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  • #76
    Originally posted by jvw View Post
    That statement is arguable, yeah of course the offense was outstanding with TD and Elway but don't forget about Neil Smith or Keith Trayler or John Mobley or Ray Crockett or Steve Atwater, the list goes on. The defense was one of or if not the best in that two year run. Offence wins ball games but defense wins championships. Against the Jags in 96, I think our defense was as good as projected, it was a case of overlooking the weaker team. I'm not sure that the Broncos were ready for Bruenells scrambling ability, he had just as much if not more to do in the win than their running game. I believe the Packers offense was just as good as our beloved Broncos, it was the defense that went over the top won it for us. The Falcons, well, we were just a better team
    I won't disagree that the defense stepped it up against the Packers, but it was the offense that got them to the dance. Right now they don't have that kind of offense. The biggest reason for that is because they don't have that same high quality offensive line. The best way to get that kind of quality on the line again is to draft the most talented offensive linemen available. They have a chance to do that this year. They should absolutely take advantage of that opportunity, especially if they don't like any of the available linebackers or defensive tackles in the first round.

    As far as 1996 goes, it wasn't a matter of overlooking a weaker team. I remember one of the announcers, I believe it was Dan Dierdorf, said before the game that he believed the Jaguars could run successfully against the Broncos. He was right. The Broncos defense wasn't good against the run because they were a run stuffing defense. They were good against the run because they didn't have to face it very much because the other team was too busy trying to pass their way back into the game. The Broncos had a good defense, but their success was predicated on the success of the offense. They even said so themselves. It was the offense's abilities that enabled the defense to play so aggressively. If the offense wasn't capable of scoring so many points so quickly, the defense would have had to play a lot more conservatively.

    I can't imagine that Shanahan would intentionally try to turn the team's identity into it's defense. If that were the case, Bowlen might as well hire Brian Billick so he can do it by accident and have one of the best defenses in the league. I would think that Shanahan would want to reestablish the team's identity as a high power offense capable of scoring from anywhere on the field, but also capable of controlling the clock with the running game. Getting the best talent on the offensive line possible would go a long way in achieving that.
    My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
    You Mad Bro?
    Don’t Be A Mean Girl

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    • #77
      Clady might be overrated. I mean, he dominated in a weaker conference (the WAC), against DEs who have futures in something other than football. I've also read that he basically got owned in Boise State's bowl game against East Carolina, to put it subtly.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by JoRo View Post
        look at how our sack rates went when we lost Lepsis in 06... they jumped... due to Pears starting!
        Pears was a rookie then, by now, he ahas almost two years of starting experience, he have evolved. not all players are ready to start as a rookie, especially in a zone blocking system.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Max Power View Post
          Clady might be overrated. I mean, he dominated in a weaker conference (the WAC), against DEs who have futures in something other than football. I've also read that he basically got owned in Boise State's bowl game against East Carolina, to put it subtly.


          I agree... and, with all things considered... seems like Williams is the better bet. Probably even Baker.

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          • #80
            Everyone is forgetting the latter starters who have great potential to be elite zone blockers in the league...Clady is a bit overrated and he will not make an immediate impact, nor will Williams. Baker comes from a scheme that allows him to start faster, but I think he has too many flags to be a legit pick at 12, 15 or even 18...so with that said we look to those latter picks with first round talent, just either rawer or they really are underrated - Kirk Barton from Ohio St. could have easily been a first rounder if not for issues that in my mind are very similar to Baker's and the round difference is likely a 4th round pick compared to a late 1st? Tony Hills from Texas is a very athletic tackle, he is well graded but could fall as others fall and rise and he will likely fall into the 3rd to 4th rounds. Oniel Cousins is from a ZBS scheme where he manned the right side well, many think Baker will be a right side tackle, but Cousins is climbing and could be a 2nd rounder. Shawn Murphy from Utah is listed as a guard, he has started at both left tackle and left guard and he in my opinion was much better as a left tackle and could be the 'gem' of all the linemen and he will be a solid 5th round pick. Carlton Medder from Florida was a good tackle, he fits the scheme but he has a lot of question marks just like many other tackles and he will also be a 5th round pick. The point I am getting at is that those who fit the zone schemes tend to fall or be less noticed and Long is that kind of tackle, I also think Atlanta might take him because of that fact, but he will also fit in other schemes where as the latter tackles are pretty much better suited strictly for such offenses.

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            • #81
              I will say this:

              The odds that DEN will have another chance... to select the #2 RB in a draft class... will probably not happen again in the Cutler-Shanny era. This just might be a once in a lifetime opportunity. Ergo, JS/RM must be the choice... If we want a high OT... make a move to grab another 1st round pick.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by lancane View Post
                Everyone is forgetting the latter starters who have great potential to be elite zone blockers in the league...Clady is a bit overrated and he will not make an immediate impact, nor will Williams. Baker comes from a scheme that allows him to start faster, but I think he has too many flags to be a legit pick at 12, 15 or even 18...so with that said we look to those latter picks with first round talent, just either rawer or they really are underrated - Kirk Barton from Ohio St. could have easily been a first rounder if not for issues that in my mind are very similar to Baker's and the round difference is likely a 4th round pick compared to a late 1st? Tony Hills from Texas is a very athletic tackle, he is well graded but could fall as others fall and rise and he will likely fall into the 3rd to 4th rounds. Oniel Cousins is from a ZBS scheme where he manned the right side well, many think Baker will be a right side tackle, but Cousins is climbing and could be a 2nd rounder. Shawn Murphy from Utah is listed as a guard, he has started at both left tackle and left guard and he in my opinion was much better as a left tackle and could be the 'gem' of all the linemen and he will be a solid 5th round pick. Carlton Medder from Florida was a good tackle, he fits the scheme but he has a lot of question marks just like many other tackles and he will also be a 5th round pick. The point I am getting at is that those who fit the zone schemes tend to fall or be less noticed and Long is that kind of tackle, I also think Atlanta might take him because of that fact, but he will also fit in other schemes where as the latter tackles are pretty much better suited strictly for such offenses.
                Waiting for the 4th round or later defeats the purpose of getting the best talent available. Even the third round this year defeats that purpose. Getting the best talent available is always the better choice. Clady, Baker, Williams, and perhaps one or two others who have first or second round talent will be available to the Broncos. They can fit into the Broncos scheme and still protect Jay. Protecting the quarterback should always be job number one for the offensive line. That's something that our late round picks and undrafted players haven't been able to do. Get them into an obvious passing situation and the quarterback is almost always running for his life or getting sacked. This needs to stop. Getting the best talent on the line possible is the best way to fix the problem.
                My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                You Mad Bro?
                Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
                  I will say this:

                  The odds that DEN will have another chance... to select the #2 RB in a draft class... will probably not happen again in the Cutler-Shanny era. This just might be a once in a lifetime opportunity. Ergo, JS/RM must be the choice... If we want a high OT... make a move to grab another 1st round pick.
                  If the Broncos don't fix the offensive line, the Broncos could have a shot at whoever the best running back is in the draft in 2009.
                  My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                  You Mad Bro?
                  Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                    If the Broncos don't fix the offensive line, the Broncos could have a shot at whoever the best running back is in the draft in 2009.

                    WELL... valid point indeed! I would say Ellis is option number one... I then would say Williams-Phillips-RM/JS should be option number two.

                    YES, we need to fix the offensive line... BUT, DEN must take the BPA at #12, not draft based on need. BRONCOS CANNOT AFFORD TO DRAFT A BUST HERE!

                    It's wrong to think that Williams-Clady-whatever fixes the O-line.

                    What if Harris is the goods? What if Nalen-Hamilton return to form? And Kup-Myers-Pears-Holland are good enough?

                    HEY... if Williams steps in and is like Joe Thomas... If he's our starting LT for the next 10 years. I would be behind this selection 1000 percent. Williams-Kup would be the left side protecting Cutler. GREAT.

                    Let's leave this to the scouts and professionals! I hope DEN doesn't draft based on what they hope someone to turn out to be... Take the safest bet. We have many needs!

                    This is why I think RB in 1st round and LB in the second round... Based on where we pick, and who is expected to be on the board... I think these represent BPA... best worth... and something DEn needs.


                    NOW... would I be upset if we draft OT in the 1st? NO WAY... I would support it.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                      Waiting for the 4th round or later defeats the purpose of getting the best talent available. Even the third round this year defeats that purpose. Getting the best talent available is always the better choice. Clady, Baker, Williams, and perhaps one or two others who have first or second round talent will be available to the Broncos. They can fit into the Broncos scheme and still protect Jay. Protecting the quarterback should always be job number one for the offensive line. That's something that our late round picks and undrafted players haven't been able to do. Get them into an obvious passing situation and the quarterback is almost always running for his life or getting sacked. This needs to stop. Getting the best talent on the line possible is the best way to fix the problem.
                      No it doesn't - Shannan Sharpe, Terrell Davis, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil to name a few were not first round picks...hell Lepsis was an undrafted tight end, not a left tackle! The average starting offensive linemen in the NFL were drafted between the 2nd and 4th rounds. The average of drafting a great offensive lineman in the 1st is one in three, that means if we draft one and he is another Foster we just drafted and basically will pay him more money then we pay any current offensive lineman give maybe Nalen and he could be a bust, the same is for any position...the draft is a lottery.
                      Mark Schlereth, remember him? He was a freaking 10th round pick, not 3rd and not 1st...Gary Zimmerman was a 1st round pick, Tony Jones...remember him as well? He was undrafted like Lepsis! Nalen was a 7th round pick, Brian Habib was a 10th round pick and Dan Neil was a 3rd round pick...you do know I just named our entire offensive line from our championship years and only one of them was a 1st round pick!

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by lancane View Post
                        No it doesn't - Shannan Sharpe, Terrell Davis, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil to name a few were not first round picks...hell Lepsis was an undrafted tight end, not a left tackle! The average starting offensive linemen in the NFL were drafted between the 2nd and 4th rounds. The average of drafting a great offensive lineman in the 1st is one in three, that means if we draft one and he is another Foster we just drafted and basically will pay him more money then we pay any current offensive lineman give maybe Nalen and he could be a bust, the same is for any position...the draft is a lottery.
                        Mark Schlereth, remember him? He was a freaking 10th round pick, not 3rd and not 1st...Gary Zimmerman was a 1st round pick, Tony Jones...remember him as well? He was undrafted like Lepsis! Nalen was a 7th round pick, Brian Habib was a 10th round pick and Dan Neil was a 3rd round pick...you do know I just named our entire offensive line from our championship years and only one of them was a 1st round pick!
                        Yeah, the only one that will be in the Hall of Fame.

                        I'm not claiming that Clady or Baker or Williams will be a Hall of Famer, but the Broncos can not rule out taking offensive linemen in the first round just because they might find some good ones in the later rounds. Get the guys with the talent and you increase your chances of building a line that will protect your quarterback. How good did the line do this season in protecting Jay in obvious passing situations? Not very good. How dominant was the running game? Not very dominant. Getting better talent on the line will give them a better chance to regaining their dominance on the ground and still protect Jay.

                        Not every lineman has to be a first rounder or even a 2nd or 3rd rounder, but when they have the opportunity to get guys that can fit their scheme and still protect the quarterback in the first two or three rounds, they should consider taking advantage of that opportunity.
                        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                        You Mad Bro?
                        Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                          Yeah, the only one that will be in the Hall of Fame.

                          I'm not claiming that Clady or Baker or Williams will be a Hall of Famer, but the Broncos can not rule out taking offensive linemen in the first round just because they might find some good ones in the later rounds. Get the guys with the talent and you increase your chances of building a line that will protect your quarterback. How good did the line do this season in protecting Jay in obvious passing situations? Not very good. How dominant was the running game? Not very dominant. Getting better talent on the line will give them a better chance to regaining their dominance on the ground and still protect Jay.

                          Not every lineman has to be a first rounder or even a 2nd or 3rd rounder, but when they have the opportunity to get guys that can fit their scheme and still protect the quarterback in the first two or three rounds, they should consider taking advantage of that opportunity.
                          When the opportunity comes we have drafted well, most of our linemen have gone on if we do not keep them to start for other teams: Habib, Carlisle and Neil...fact is simple that everyone is overrating the top tackles just a bit, could they improve us, yes...could they hurt us? Very much so and not just on the field but fiscally. I would rather draft a 2nd round or later tackle and maybe even one in the 7th and add some undrafted free agents then go after one in the first who could bust us in more then one way...but that is just me, one thing is that Shanahan usually believes that as well.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by lancane View Post
                            When the opportunity comes we have drafted well, most of our linemen have gone on if we do not keep them to start for other teams: Habib, Carlisle and Neil...fact is simple that everyone is overrating the top tackles just a bit, could they improve us, yes...could they hurt us? Very much so and not just on the field but fiscally. I would rather draft a 2nd round or later tackle and maybe even one in the 7th and add some undrafted free agents then go after one in the first who could bust us in more then one way...but that is just me, one thing is that Shanahan usually believes that as well.
                            Habib was a free agent signing from the Vikings, the same year we got Zimmerman, from the Vikings.

                            The whole point in taking any player, especially those in the first round, is to improve the team. It doesn't matter what position is selected. If Clady, Baker, Williams, or some other tackle with first round talent can make the team better, the Broncos should consider that player. There is always a risk with whichever position is selected. If Jarvis Moss doesn't pan out, they will take a hit fiscally as well. It might not be as much because he wasn't picked as high as the Broncos are picking this year, but it's still a financial risk that the Broncos had to take in order to get the player they wanted. That's just part of the business. Of course Shanahan will have to decide if it's worth the risk in order to protect his young franchise quarterback to get an offensive tackle in the first round. I happen to think it is. If he doesn't, I hope he addresses the front seven on the defense by getting Keith Rivers.
                            My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                            You Mad Bro?
                            Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                              Habib was a free agent signing from the Vikings, the same year we got Zimmerman, from the Vikings.

                              The whole point in taking any player, especially those in the first round, is to improve the team. It doesn't matter what position is selected. If Clady, Baker, Williams, or some other tackle with first round talent can make the team better, the Broncos should consider that player. There is always a risk with whichever position is selected. If Jarvis Moss doesn't pan out, they will take a hit fiscally as well. It might not be as much because he wasn't picked as high as the Broncos are picking this year, but it's still a financial risk that the Broncos had to take in order to get the player they wanted. That's just part of the business. Of course Shanahan will have to decide if it's worth the risk in order to protect his young franchise quarterback to get an offensive tackle in the first round. I happen to think it is. If he doesn't, I hope he addresses the front seven on the defense by getting Keith Rivers.
                              And that is your given right to believe that...I do not, I think Shanahan will go offensive with our two first picks because he and Bowlen are both tired of a mediocre offense, even if we keep Henry with a cheaper contract...I sincerely think they want to fix the offense. I think Bates asked for more defensive players to make his defense work and it irritated Shanahan, instead Shanahan thought a heavy defensive draft last year should have been good enough, Slowik will get the team as is and with what Shanahan wants to give him...just like he has done to Coyer before. Walker is likely history cause of him unwilling to change his contract...

                              I stick by my draft as of now...Mendenhall with the first pick and Bennett with the second pick, we will fix the offensive line and defense from that point out...



                              Postnote - I knew Habib was from Minnesota, he was still a 10th round pick as was Schlereth!

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