Fixing the 4-3 D- What do you think?

[JoRo]

I honestly think that given the fact that Slow will be here next year the board would be a good deal more enjoyable if we talked about how we could possibly become better rather than whining about it. So I decided to post this with the idea of getting some posts on what you would want to do to fix the D if it was the 4-3 in the box set we used most of this season. The 3-4 is a different beast and if that IS what we end up running I'll make a new thread for it

If we plan on running the 4-3 eight in box set, this is what I'd like us to try and add:

A roamer safety, with 8 in the box you need the other safety to be able to have some range and "clean up" ability to take out anything that gets by the 8. This is why I want Taylor Mays of USC so bad, it's exactly what he played for the Trojan defense this year, a D that people are saying may be one of the best ever, as it allowed 7.8 points a game to this point, and I think allowed one pass over 30 yards?


That's pretty good.
Backup options include: Brian Dawkins (though he may want to go elsewhere... or resign)
Darren Sharper if he doesn't resign


I also think we need to upgrade our "in the box" safety: this is why if Roy Williams is released I want us to look into him, cuz that is what he does best. The safety in that scheme is basically a fourth mini linebacker, playing the run but also having some coverage responsibility.

Other players I like for this:

Rodney Harrison, though he may be done.
Lawyer Milloy- old though


One guy I realy have eye on that may be worth a risk is Oshiomogho Atogwe from the Rams, who was good in 07 year but wasn't as much this year. He however is playing on a D with no real help (much like ours actually so he may not be interested)

William Moore is kind of a hybrid from what I know, he lacks tremendous closing speed but has good instincts and size.

I'll be looking into the rest the D more now and prolly post again. Safeties have been what I was focusing on during the season cuz ours were just so bad.

[Nick]

I think the most important thing regardless of 4-3 and a 3-4 is we need a solid 2-gap DT. This will free up our linebackers. We also need a bigger DE on put him on the opposing teams blindside.

You add both of those... In which will give us decent depth at the front four and add either a OLB or MLB and a FS. This will change the look of our deffense.

I am all for getting a vet safety as a Bronco in free agency. It will be worth the money. As of right now the front 7 has to be a main priority.

[JoRo]

I think the most important thing regardless of 4-3 and a 3-4 is we need a solid 2-gap DT. This will free up our linebackers. We also need a bigger DE on put him on the opposing teams blindside.

You add both of those... In which will give us decent depth at the front four and add either a OLB or MLB and a FS. This will change the look of our deffense.

I am all for getting a vet safety as a Bronco in free agency. It will be worth the money. As of right now the front 7 has to be a main priority.

I disagree. I think our safeties have been so bad this season that it put additional pressure on the corners, which gave the DL less time to get there.

And playing 8 in the box puts more pressure on the safety sitting back, and when he is lousy.... you have my point.

I think the order of problems goes:

Safety
DL (not sure which is worse the DT's or DE's... prolly the ends)
and then Middle backer.


I do agree though that if the DL is fixed it will at least make our lousy safeties look a lil better.


Another problem I think we have (and I don't want to argue about this as it has been heated anytime it's brought up) is we have way too much money in two old slowing down players at the cornerback spots.

[ging]

One guy I realy have eye on that may be worth a risk is Oshiomogho Atogwe from the Rams, who was good in 07 year but wasn't as much this year. He however is playing on a D with no real help (much like ours actually so he may not be interested)

Im big on Atogwe. He still had 5 int's and 6 FF this year and 85 tackles.
Thats 11 turnovers on his own and almost as many as our entire defense.

[JoRo]

Im big on Atogwe. He still had 5 int's and 6 FF this year and 85 tackles.
Thats 11 turnovers on his own and almost as many as our entire defense.

The thing for him is... you'd think coming from one bad D he def. wouldn't want to go to ours which is imo worse. (FO stats prove so)


I like him though. Alot.

[7+6=2 Hall of Famers]

What the Broncos have to do is go out and get Julius Pepers. He can get Pressure on the QB and play the run. He willl start getting the double teams instead of Dumerville and they both will start getting sacks which helps the secondary out alot. Pending on Cap room i also think that Shanahan should go out and try to get Brian Dawkins to sure up the saftie spot with Josh Barrett or Bart Scott to make our front 7 the best in the league. Where mot going to get them both we might not get either but we should defenitly be in contract talks with both. If we dont get Scott Boss Bailey will likely start. He isn't the best LB but he is fast and is long so he can cover TE and that is a big plus in the AFC West(Gates, Gonzales, Miller).

In the Draft, trade down!!!! Get to the 22-30 range and another early second rounder. Get B.J. Raji out of Boston College who will eat up linemen to free up the linebackers. With the second pick get Brandon Spikes out of Flordia, a big linebacker that like to hit. In the mid and late rounds get CB that can come in and learn from Champ and play in the nickel for a year or two until there ready to start. If we are not able to land Dawkins we should draft Michael Hamlin out of Clemson, He is 6'3" so he will be able to put on some weight so he could be that 8th man in the box were looking for but he can still run a 4.5 so he could come in and make and impact.

2009 Starters
RE: Jullius Peppers
DT: Marcus Thomas
DT: B.J. Raji
LE: Elvis Dumerville
WLB: D.J. Williams
MLB: Brandon Spikes
SLB: Bart Scott/Boss Bailey
CB: Champ Bailey
CB: Dre Bly
FS: Brian Dawkins/Micheal Hamlin
SS: Josh Barrett

[ging]

The thing for him is... you'd think coming from one bad D he def. wouldn't want to go to ours which is imo worse. (FO stats prove so)


I like him though. Alot.

true. But money has a way to persuade people. Its worth looking into at least

[Rockies24]

What the Broncos have to do is go out and get Julius Pepers. He can get Pressure on the QB and play the run. He willl start getting the double teams instead of Dumerville and they both will start getting sacks which helps the secondary out alot. Pending on Cap room i also think that Shanahan should go out and try to get Brian Dawkins to sure up the saftie spot with Josh Barrett or Bart Scott to make our front 7 the best in the league. Where mot going to get them both we might not get either but we should defenitly be in contract talks with both. If we dont get Scott Boss Bailey will likely start. He isn't the best LB but he is fast and is long so he can cover TE and that is a big plus in the AFC West(Gates, Gonzales, Miller).

In the Draft, trade down!!!! Get to the 22-30 range and another early second rounder. Get B.J. Raji out of Boston College who will eat up linemen to free up the linebackers. With the second pick get Brandon Spikes out of Flordia, a big linebacker that like to hit. In the mid and late rounds get CB that can come in and learn from Champ and play in the nickel for a year or two until there ready to start. If we are not able to land Dawkins we should draft Michael Hamlin out of Clemson, He is 6'3" so he will be able to put on some weight so he could be that 8th man in the box were looking for but he can still run a 4.5 so he could come in and make and impact.

2009 Starters
RE: Jullius Peppers
DT: Marcus Thomas
DT: B.J. Raji
LE: Elvis Dumerville
WLB: D.J. Williams
MLB: Brandon Spikes
SLB: Bart Scott/Boss Bailey
CB: Champ Bailey
CB: Dre Bly
FS: Brian Dawkins/Micheal Hamlin
SS: Josh Barrett

I doubt we will be able to sign Scott, Peppers, and Dawkins considering Peppers will be franchised and Dawkins wants to finish his career with Philly.

I think you are on to something about trading down though. Suppose we trade down to around 25, and grab the best DT available (Raji could still be there, but guys like Sen'Derrick Marks and Peria Jerry are possibilitys). Once we grab that DT, we should have enough picks to get back into the first round and grab Brandon Spikes.

This year is unusual in the sence that I would be completely willing to sacrafice picks in 2010 so we can get 2 or 3 diffrence makers on defense in the draft this year. We need our defense to be at least mediocre as our offense peaks, so we should pounce right now.

[Warhawk]

I honestly think that given the fact that Slow will be here next year the board would be a good deal more enjoyable if we talked about how we could possibly become better rather than whining about it.

While I understand what you're trying to say, it's pretty hard to ignore the elephant in the room. Making moves that supposedly suit Slowik's / Shanny's scheme just puts us another year in the hole. I'm usually pretty excited about the draft, but the apparent status quo on the defensive side of things is really taking a lot of the enjoyment out of being a Bronco fan right now.

Okay, enough griping...

1. We need bigger, stronger players on the DL.

Watching Dumervil get blown out repeatedly, leaving a massive hole in the B-gap is simply too much to stomach. It causes us to overplay the point of attack, leaving the team ridiculously susceptible to the cutback/misdirection. Strength along the DL also helps protect the LB's from marauding OL looking to crush someone downfield.

2. We need well-rounded LB's

So, where's the discipline? How about instincts? Hmm, perhaps we could shed some blocks. No? My, that certainly makes things difficult...

Too much freelancing, too many idiots (yes, Webster and Winborn, this means you). Woodyard and Larsen were steps in the right direction, but we need more.

3. We need two starting-quality safeties

We've got an array of garbage in the secondary, definitely time for an upgrade. I really think one needs to be an established veteran to help lead the defense, the other could be a draft pick. Both need to be able to cover effectively.

[AC1]

I honestly think that given the fact that Slow will be here next year the board would be a good deal more enjoyable if we talked about how we could possibly become better rather than whining about it. So I decided to post this with the idea of getting some posts on what you would want to do to fix the D if it was the 4-3 in the box set we used most of this season. The 3-4 is a different beast and if that IS what we end up running I'll make a new thread for it

If we plan on running the 4-3 eight in box set, this is what I'd like us to try and add:

A roamer safety, with 8 in the box you need the other safety to be able to have some range and "clean up" ability to take out anything that gets by the 8. This is why I want Taylor Mays of USC so bad, it's exactly what he played for the Trojan defense this year, a D that people are saying may be one of the best ever, as it allowed 7.8 points a game to this point, and I think allowed one pass over 30 yards?


That's pretty good.
Backup options include: Brian Dawkins (though he may want to go elsewhere... or resign)
Darren Sharper if he doesn't resign


I also think we need to upgrade our "in the box" safety: this is why if Roy Williams is released I want us to look into him, cuz that is what he does best. The safety in that scheme is basically a fourth mini linebacker, playing the run but also having some coverage responsibility.

Other players I like for this:

Rodney Harrison, though he may be done.
Lawyer Milloy- old though


One guy I realy have eye on that may be worth a risk is Oshiomogho Atogwe from the Rams, who was good in 07 year but wasn't as much this year. He however is playing on a D with no real help (much like ours actually so he may not be interested)

William Moore is kind of a hybrid from what I know, he lacks tremendous closing speed but has good instincts and size.

I'll be looking into the rest the D more now and prolly post again. Safeties have been what I was focusing on during the season cuz ours were just so bad.

I think if we are keeping Slowik and sticking to the 4-3, we ought to find a defensive version of Jeremy Bates, who is a good defensive play-caller.

Secondly, I believe we really need to find a pass-rusher from somewhere, and one that is also stout against the run. I don't see any of the top tier DEs in the draft playing that role, so I would want to see us get into the bidding for Peppers or failing that, trade for Justin Tuck.

Thirdly, we need a stud at MLB. I would spend our first-rounder here.

Finally we need two safeties, of which atleast one ought to have above-average coverage skills.

At a bare minimum, I think this is what we need to get the 4-3 defense back to some respectability. An interior pass-rusher at LDT, a good SLB and a power end that is stout against the run would help considerably as well, but aren't glaring needs at this point (we are getting by with Robertson, Boss/Winborn, and Ekuban) and can be drafted the following offseason.

[JoRo]

War- I wasn't saying I was happy with Slow. I want to go in a dif. direction but I doubt we will since Shanny stated he is ok with him.


AC- there is no flipping way we get Tuck. We tried when we wanted to dump Al to the Giants and they said "no flipping way". They won't now.

[AC1]

War- I wasn't saying I was happy with Slow. I want to go in a dif. direction but I doubt we will since Shanny stated he is ok with him.


AC- there is no flipping way we get Tuck. We tried when we wanted to dump Al to the Giants and they said "no flipping way". They won't now.

I think we have to figure out a way. If DJ Williams gets us Tuck, I would say do it. The lack of that elite pass-rusher really bites us when we load up to stop the run and the QB steps back to throw. We have seen time and again, and not just this season that with 2 CBs and 1 safety in coverage, the QB just picks us apart. Every scheme has a weakness and the weakness of the 8-man-box is weakened coverage. Having a guy who could win his 1-on-1 consistently and hurry the QB into the throw is IMO as essential as the NT is to the 3-4.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

I think if we are keeping Slowik and sticking to the 4-3, we ought to find a defensive version of Jeremy Bates, who is a good defensive play-caller.

Secondly, I believe we really need to find a pass-rusher from somewhere, and one that is also stout against the run. I don't see any of the top tier DEs in the draft playing that role, so I would want to see us get into the bidding for Peppers or failing that, trade for Justin Tuck.

Thirdly, we need a stud at MLB. I would spend our first-rounder here.

Finally we need two safeties, of which atleast one ought to have above-average coverage skills.

At a bare minimum, I think this is what we need to get the 4-3 defense back to some respectability. An interior pass-rusher at LDT, a good SLB and a power end that is stout against the run would help considerably as well, but aren't glaring needs at this point (we are getting by with Robertson, Boss/Winborn, and Ekuban) and can be drafted the following offseason.

I don't see a need for a stud MLB. If you draft one, then DJ Williams is at WILL and Wesley Woodyard is on the bench. That just makes rebuilding our team take another season. Woodyard needs to be starting at WILL, which moves DJ back to MIKE, where I believe his physical skills just fit better. A SAM LB would be nice, but I thought Winborn was at least average, and Larson might be able to play there as well. I think we have the LBs to succeed on our team right now, we just need to play them at the right positions.

I also don't see a DT being drafted early. Robertson is guaranteed 10 million next season, so he's starting as we can't cut him. Marcus Thomas is our best interior D-lineman and needs to continue to develop. Kenny Peterson will likely be resigned and was an effective rotational DT, and then we also have Carlton Powell, Jr. coming back, whom Shanahan is very high on. Those are our top 4 DTs. You *might* dress a 5th DT on gamedays, but we tend to just scoot a DE inside instead, regardless, a 5th DT is where a need might be at, but you don't draft a 5th DT in the first 4 rounds. Our DT rotation, whether we fans like it or not, is set in stone for next season. Personally, I don't think DT is a problem area. I think the problems are at DE, lack of safety versatility, and DJ Williams' poor blitzing ability off the edge. (i.e. no pass rush at all).

I think Tyson Jackson is a Power End that offers pass rushing potential. He'd be worth our 1st round pick. We have nobody at LDE. We also need a starting calibur Rush End. Dumervil has proven he's a pass rush guy only that is horrid against the run. Jarvis Moss is non-existant and can't be counted on. Ekuban is a free agent, but average at best, and probably is best as a backup Power End. Brian Orakpo would make sense if he drops. He's not really that small, and he's insanely strong. He just likely won't be around. Greg Hardy from Mississippi, whom should come out, is a complete DE as well. He might be the best in this entire draft when its all said and done.


As for the Safeties, no argument here. Definitely one of our biggest needs, along with two starting calibur DEs.

[ging]

I think we have to figure out a way. If DJ Williams gets us Tuck, I would say do it. The lack of that elite pass-rusher really bites us when we load up to stop the run and the QB steps back to throw. We have seen time and again, and not just this season that with 2 CBs and 1 safety in coverage, the QB just picks us apart. Every scheme has a weakness and the weakness of the 8-man-box is weakened coverage. Having a guy who could win his 1-on-1 consistently and hurry the QB into the throw is IMO as essential as the NT is to the 3-4.

I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

[JoRo]

I think we have to figure out a way. If DJ Williams gets us Tuck, I would say do it. The lack of that elite pass-rusher really bites us when we load up to stop the run and the QB steps back to throw. We have seen time and again, and not just this season that with 2 CBs and 1 safety in coverage, the QB just picks us apart. Every scheme has a weakness and the weakness of the 8-man-box is weakened coverage. Having a guy who could win his 1-on-1 consistently and hurry the QB into the throw is IMO as essential as the NT is to the 3-4.

Why would the Giants trade us Tuck just cuz we throw Williams on there?

Even if your playing Madden (which you must be) Williams isn't near the player Tuck is


MUG-

What all do you think for Safeties past the first? I know Moore and Mays the best, and I know FA has been a good route if you take a "good" safety (not the crap we been picking up) because they don't cost near as much as a top flight linemen on the FA market... but in the draft what all is there?

Rolle is likely going to be a doctor, so I gotta start informing myself

Good post otherwise