Fixing the 4-3 D- What do you think?

[elevation INC]

Why would the Giants trade us Tuck just cuz we throw Williams on there?

Even if your playing Madden (which you must be) Williams isn't near the player Tuck is


MUG-

What all do you think for Safeties past the first? I know Moore and Mays the best, and I know FA has been a good route if you take a "good" safety (not the crap we been picking up) because they don't cost near as much as a top flight linemen on the FA market... but in the draft what all is there?

Rolle is likely going to be a doctor, so I gotta start informing myself

Good post otherwise

i know this is isnt meant for me but i like alot of guys later on


Peagues, rashad johnson, louis delmas, otis wiley, cj spillman, david bruton, michael hamlin, chris clemons, lendy jones, sherod martin, chung, chip vaugh, nic harris to name a few.


Free Agency---- FS sean jones, SS yeremiah bell are good guys as well.

[JoRo]

i know this is isnt meant for me but i like alot of guys later on


Peagues, rashad johnson, louis delmas, otis wiley, cj spillman, david bruton, michael hamlin, chris clemons, lendy jones, sherod martin, chung, chip vaugh, nic harris to name a few.


Free Agency---- FS sean jones, SS yeremiah bell are good guys as well.

I meant it for anyone, just felt like asking MUG.

I just didn't wanna hear about "Julius PEPPERS RAWR!!!!" or those people... it gets old after awhile kids, go play madden

So fill me in on some of them Elev

[AC1]

I don't see a need for a stud MLB. If you draft one, then DJ Williams is at WILL and Wesley Woodyard is on the bench. That just makes rebuilding our team take another season. Woodyard needs to be starting at WILL, which moves DJ back to MIKE, where I believe his physical skills just fit better. A SAM LB would be nice, but I thought Winborn was at least average, and Larson might be able to play there as well. I think we have the LBs to succeed on our team right now, we just need to play them at the right positions.

I would consider DJ Williams a stud Mike. Whether it is by moving DJ or by drafting a top-tier guy, we need an upgrade to Webster. Not only does the visual evidence suggest it, every time an expert breaks down our defense, I hear things like "poor gap control, not reading keys correctly etc." which screams to poor LB play.

As for the SAM, I realize that it is one of the more ignored positions on a 4-3 defense and often with good reason. However, considering our emphasis on stopping the run, the lack of a truly elite power end, and the fact that we play in a division with 2 exceptional tight ends (and a very good one in Miller), should Sam be a slightly more important position to us? I'm not saying we draft one in the first two rounds. But is Winborn's average play (I thought he was good at times, but got victimised on too many big plays) enough on a defense that is average in many other places? I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on this one, just raising a question.

I also don't see a DT being drafted early. Robertson is guaranteed 10 million next season, so he's starting as we can't cut him. Marcus Thomas is our best interior D-lineman and needs to continue to develop. Kenny Peterson will likely be resigned and was an effective rotational DT, and then we also have Carlton Powell, Jr. coming back, whom Shanahan is very high on. Those are our top 4 DTs. You *might* dress a 5th DT on gamedays, but we tend to just scoot a DE inside instead, regardless, a 5th DT is where a need might be at, but you don't draft a 5th DT in the first 4 rounds. Our DT rotation, whether we fans like it or not, is set in stone for next season. Personally, I don't think DT is a problem area. I think the problems are at DE, lack of safety versatility, and DJ Williams' poor blitzing ability off the edge. (i.e. no pass rush at all).

I agree with this for the most part, which is why I don't believe a DT is a glaring need at this point if we stay in the 4-3. I do feel however that we get very little pass-rush from the inside. But a pass-rusher at DT is a nice-to-have at this point, not a must-have.

I think Tyson Jackson is a Power End that offers pass rushing potential. He'd be worth our 1st round pick. We have nobody at LDE. We also need a starting calibur Rush End. Dumervil has proven he's a pass rush guy only that is horrid against the run. Jarvis Moss is non-existant and can't be counted on. Ekuban is a free agent, but average at best, and probably is best as a backup Power End. Brian Orakpo would make sense if he drops. He's not really that small, and he's insanely strong. He just likely won't be around. Greg Hardy from Mississippi, whom should come out, is a complete DE as well. He might be the best in this entire draft when its all said and done.

I'd be quite happy if we picked Tyson jackson. A power end with pass-rushing abilities would be more than welcome. If we can't get him, I would hope that we look at Mitch King or Derek Walker on the second day as potential power ends (though neither of them is in Jackson's league).

I was concerned about the versatility of the DEs available in the first round, but if Orakpo and Hardy are as well-rounded as you say they are, they could helps us as well.

As for the Safeties, no argument here. Definitely one of our biggest needs, along with two starting calibur DEs.

I agree on the DEs as well. I do feel we need two starters.

Why would the Giants trade us Tuck just cuz we throw Williams on there?

Even if your playing Madden (which you must be) Williams isn't near the player Tuck is

I'm not suggesting that getting Tuck or Peppers or any other elite DE for that matter is going ot be easy, nor am I suggesting that a straight-up trade for DJ will get it done. I'm saying that, no matter what it takes, we need to find a way to get an established DE that can rush the passer while being stout against the run. There isn't a more important position for our scheme than DE and seeing as we can't draft them, I'm leery of taking another chance in the draft (but I'm not against it, since that's the best way to get quality linemen on either side).

[JoRo]

I would consider DJ Williams a stud Mike. Whether it is by moving DJ or by drafting a top-tier guy, we need an upgrade to Webster. Not only does the visual evidence suggest it, every time an expert breaks down our defense, I hear things like "poor gap control, not reading keys correctly etc." which screams to poor LB play.

As for the SAM, I realize that it is one of the more ignored positions on a 4-3 defense and often with good reason. However, considering our emphasis on stopping the run, the lack of a truly elite power end, and the fact that we play in a division with 2 exceptional tight ends (and a very good one in Miller), should Sam be a slightly more important position to us? I'm not saying we draft one in the first two rounds. But is Winborn's average play (I thought he was good at times, but got victimised on too many big plays) enough on a defense that is average in many other places? I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on this one, just raising a question.



I agree with this for the most part, which is why I don't believe a DT is a glaring need at this point if we stay in the 4-3. I do feel however that we get very little pass-rush from the inside. But a pass-rusher at DT is a nice-to-have at this point, not a must-have.




I'd be quite happy if we picked Tyson jackson. A power end with pass-rushing abilities would be more than welcome. If we can't get him, I would hope that we look at Mitch King or Derek Walker on the second day as potential power ends (though neither of them is in Jackson's league).

I was concerned about the versatility of the DEs available in the first round, but if Orakpo and Hardy are as well-rounded as you say they are, they could helps us as well.



I agree on the DEs as well. I do feel we need two starters.



I'm not suggesting that getting Tuck or Peppers or any other elite DE for that matter is going ot be easy, nor am I suggesting that a straight-up trade for DJ will get it done. I'm saying that, no matter what it takes, we need to find a way to get an established DE that can rush the passer while being stout against the run. There isn't a more important position for our scheme than DE and seeing as we can't draft them, I'm leery of taking another chance in the draft (but I'm not against it, since that's the best way to get quality linemen on either side).

Standout post. Honestly. And I agree with you on the end, I just thought you were a Tuck homer at first bro.


I'm going to be looking into Jackson more now with the bringing him up. To this point I had really locked on certain players, and it's now that I start doing my stuff...

I also agree on the TE thing, though a good SLB may or may not be the answer, if you get a great coverage safety you can stick'em like that as well ALA the Big Nickel of Coyer days.


In the end though, I think End and Safety are by far, BY FAR our biggest needs... we need safety help so less pressure in the secondary, and if we get a decent end: we can actually put a lil pressure on the QB...

[fraguela09]

AMEN!

I would LOVE Taylor Mays. It just makes too much sense.

1- MLB: there are a few quality f/a (Vilma, Peterson, Thomas); plus we might already have our MLB (If we keep Woodyard as the SLB, DJ is the MLB).

NOW, we could convert Woody into a SS... Mays-Woody... WOW. If we do this, just sign Mike Peterson to play MLB.

2- Landry, Atogwe... some quality f/a FS out there; but if we draft Mays, we can focus on other free agents.

SO... sign a Peppers, Haynesworth or Suggs. Sign a Peterson or Vilma,

AND... to round this all out.

Draft Mays and SIGN NNAMDI. Look, I would love Peppers, Haynesworth or Suggs. BUT, if we strike out... Plan-B must be Nnamdi... even if we have to pay.

Champ & Dre aint getting younger. Bell might develop into something. I'm not high on Williams and Pahmah could leave. We need a CB. A guy lie Nnamdi doesn't come along often.

Mays-Nnamdi would really help. Put them with Champ & Bly. Put Peterson with DJ, and throw Woody in there somewhere. That's it.

I mean, if we fail to sign Peppers, Suggs or Hayneworth.

ALSO, if we fail to land a top DL free agent, we must deal some 2010 picks and snag an extra first rounder. Draft BJ Raji.

THEN, draft a RB in the 2nd... THEN, draft 3 DT and 3 DE!


Mays, Raji (draft)
Nnamdi, Peterson (free agents)
Sprinkle in Woody, hope Powell is something and prey Crowder-Elvis-Moss develop.

This injects talent into our defense... Give me Peppers to this mix and now we're talking SuperBOwl!

[AC1]

Standout post. Honestly. And I agree with you on the end, I just thought you were a Tuck homer at first bro.


I'm going to be looking into Jackson more now with the bringing him up. To this point I had really locked on certain players, and it's now that I start doing my stuff...

I also agree on the TE thing, though a good SLB may or may not be the answer, if you get a great coverage safety you can stick'em like that as well ALA the Big Nickel of Coyer days.


In the end though, I think End and Safety are by far, BY FAR our biggest needs... we need safety help so less pressure in the secondary, and if we get a decent end: we can actually put a lil pressure on the QB...

Thanks. Ideally, nothing can be better for our defense than Moss and Crowder living up to their potential and taking up the rush end and power end positions respectively, leaving Dumervil as a nickel pass-rusher. Since we can't really depend on that happening, we might have some moves to make.

An all-round DE and a coverage safety is the bare minimum we need. Hope Shanahan and Goodman can make it happen.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

Why would the Giants trade us Tuck just cuz we throw Williams on there?

Even if your playing Madden (which you must be) Williams isn't near the player Tuck is


MUG-

What all do you think for Safeties past the first? I know Moore and Mays the best, and I know FA has been a good route if you take a "good" safety (not the crap we been picking up) because they don't cost near as much as a top flight linemen on the FA market... but in the draft what all is there?

Rolle is likely going to be a doctor, so I gotta start informing myself

Good post otherwise

You know JoRo, last year I argued with Mindfield about the Safety class being one of the deepest in history, and that has proven to be correct. This year, Mindfield argued that same argument for this draft and I disagreed, but now, I'm starting to think he might be on to something.

I don't think this draft is as deep as last years, but I think there are *alot* of potential studs. Basically, I think you have the two superstars, a potential superstar, and then a bunch of 5-10 year studs. After that, you have crap on a stick.

Here's how *I* rate the Safety position as of now:

Tier 1 (Franchise Guys)
1) William Moore (Playmaker)
2) Taylor Mays (Workout warrior)

Tier 2 (Potential Franchise Guys)
3) Emmanuel Cook (Flawless all-around player, but with size issues)

Tier 3 (Potential Pro Bowl Players)
4) Vontae Davis (if moved)
5) Michael Hamlin (Flawless, but not quite elite)
6) Derek Pegues (Ballhawk)
7) David Bruton (Pure stud)

Boom or Bust (Guys that could fit in the Top 3 tiers, or nowhere at all)
8) Myron Rolle (School)
9) Louis Delmas (Durability)
10) Rashad Johnson (Likely switch to CB)
11) Nic Harris (Speed?)
12) Kam Chancellor (raw raw raw)
13) Otis Wiley (Oozes potential)

Tier 4 (Solid, but not Spectacular Pros)
14) Patrick Chung (Above average all-around, never great)
15) Curtis Taylor (Solid)
16) Courtney Greene (Above average)
17) Chip Vaughn (Solid)
18) Troy Nolan (Sometimes playmaker)

[elevation INC]

You know JoRo, last year I argued with Mindfield about the Safety class being one of the deepest in history, and that has proven to be correct. This year, Mindfield argued that same argument for this draft and I disagreed, but now, I'm starting to think he might be on to something.

I don't think this draft is as deep as last years, but I think there are *alot* of potential studs. Basically, I think you have the two superstars, a potential superstar, and then a bunch of 5-10 year studs. After that, you have crap on a stick.

Here's how *I* rate the Safety position as of now:

Tier 1 (Franchise Guys)
1) William Moore (Playmaker)
2) Taylor Mays (Workout warrior)

Tier 2 (Potential Franchise Guys)
3) Emmanuel Cook (Flawless all-around player, but with size issues)

Tier 3 (Potential Pro Bowl Players)
4) Vontae Davis (if moved)
5) Michael Hamlin (Flawless, but not quite elite)
6) Derek Pegues (Ballhawk)
7) David Bruton (Pure stud)

Boom or Bust (Guys that could fit in the Top 3 tiers, or nowhere at all)
8) Myron Rolle (School)
9) Louis Delmas (Durability)
10) Rashad Johnson (Likely switch to CB)
11) Nic Harris (Speed?)
12) Kam Chancellor (raw raw raw)
13) Otis Wiley (Oozes potential)

Tier 4 (Solid, but not Spectacular Pros)
14) Patrick Chung (Above average all-around, never great)
15) Curtis Taylor (Solid)
16) Courtney Greene (Above average)
17) Chip Vaughn (Solid)
18) Troy Nolan (Sometimes playmaker)

i think Sean smith who will be a FS in the nfl and sherrod martin should be on your list to MUG.

smith is a 2nd rd Cb prospect but his skills fit best as a FS and he is a player, sherrod martin played for try but he is also a very good safety prospect