RFA Discussion thread (Possibly EVERYTHING you wanted or not wanted to know about RFA

[BroncosTX77]

I have been doing quite a bit of research and asking the "Experts" to no avail the rules regarding Restricted Free Agents.

From what I have gathered there seem to be a few misconceptions about RFA's on the Denver Broncos.

As of right now, until I get my questions answered this is how I see RFA working out.

As it stands right now, any player with 3-5 years of accrued time and expiring contract, destined for Free Agency is now considered a restricted free agent.

That means these important players on the Denver Broncos are RFA

WR Brandon Marshall
TE Tony Scheffler
OG Chris Kuper
LB Elvis Dumervil
K Matt Prater

DB Josh Bell is ERFA which means only current team can offer a contract or just release the player.

The above 5 players must be tendered as an RFA. The Broncos must tender the player with a Restricted Free Agent RFA tender in order to secure its rights to the player. Another team can sign the RFA to a Restricted Free Agent (RFA) offer sheet. If so, the original team has 7 days to match that offer sheet and retain the player under the terms of that offer sheet. If the team chooses not to match, they may receive compensation based on the level of the Restricted Free Agent (RFA) tender offered to the player.

This is straight from the NFLPA website regarding RFA

"RFA tenders are one-year offers that must be made on or before the last day of the year in which the player’s contract expires."

"Each RFA has from the first day of the league year until a week before the NFL Draft in April to sign an offer sheet with a new club. If an offer sheet is agreed to, then the player’s prior club has seven days to match the offer. If the offer is not matched, the club would receive the applicable draft choice compensation described above."

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$927,000 for the prior club to retain the right of first refusal (ROFR) without any draft choice compensation;

$927,000 for ROFR* or the club receives draft choice compensation equal to the draft round at which the player originally entered the league if they chose not to match an offer;

$1,417,000 for ROFR* or the club receives one second-round draft pick if the offer is not matched;

$2,017,000 for ROFR* or the club receives one first-round pick; or

$2,562,000 for ROFR* or the club receives one first round and one third-round pick.


*Right Of First Refusal
============================

Knowing this about Restricted Free Agents lets smash some these myths.

1. "No team will give Denver a 2nd round pick for Tony Scheffler"

2. "No team will give a 1st and 3rd for Brandon Marshall"

============================

Let's deal with Tony Scheffler but this could also apply to Brandon Marshall too.

Tony Scheffler was drafted in the 2nd round of the draft. If Denver wants any compensation for Tony Scheffler they have 3 options open to them.

1. Franchise Tag Tony Scheffler, then trade him away for whatever compensation to any team that wants him, and the other team can offer him a contract of their choosing.

Sound familiar? This is exactly what Bill Belicheat did with Matt Cassel last year. He franchised Matt, then traded him to Kansas City Chiefs for the 34th pick in the draft. A lot less than the determined 1st and 3rd pick for Franchise player.

If Denver went this route, to franchise a TE, Scheffler would earn roughly $4.46 million which puts him with Kellen Winslow. Would a team want to pay Tony Scheffler that much money just not to have to fork over a 2nd round pick or an opportunity to negotiate a deal?
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2. RFA Low Tender of ~$927k, that nets Denver a 2nd round pick, since Tony Scheffler was drafted in the 2nd round. What I am not sure about and have not found any variations to the rules as I did with Franchise Tag. Any team that has signed an RFA from another team has given up the compensation outlined. I am still waiting of answers if it is possible to deviate from the outline compensation or if it is possible to trade a player while RFA Tendered. What this means then is if Denver tenders Tony Scheffler, the rules state that Denver will be compensated with a 2nd round pick if any team shows interest in him.

2a. Tony Scheffler would have until 1 week before the NFL Draft to sign with another team then he has to wait 45 days before he can try again. This would screw the Broncos out of any draft picks for the 2010 draft. Once the 45 days are up Tony can only sign his tender given by Denver. He has until June 1st to sign his tender. If he doesn't then Denver has 2 weeks to decide if they re-tender Tony or pull the Tender and making Tony Scheffler a free agent. If Scheffler does not sign after re-tender then he will play under a 1 year contract that pays him 110% of his previous salary or his applicable minimum whichever is greater.

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3. Give long term contract and trade.

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Long and confusing I know, but if you take the time to read it and understand it, the information speaks for itself.

This offseason is going to be full of headaches with all the Restricted Free Agents and I hope this bit of information can help. Again this may not be entirely accurate, but is based off deductive reasoning with all the research I have gotten from NFL insiders as well as NFLPA web site.

[Den615]

I'm sure Kyle Orton is a RFA as well. Or am I seriously misinformed?

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

I'm sure Kyle Orton is a RFA as well. Or am I seriously misinformed?

You are correct, he is a RFA.


Also, there is a 4th option in regards to your trade scenario. We did it with Chris Myers if I recall correctly. We did not tender him, Houston signed him to an offer sheet which we had right of first refusal, and instead we came to an agreement where we simply traded him to Houston for a 6th Round pick.

[IronFootball]

2010 Denver Mock Draft

1. WR Dez Bryant - Oklahoma State
2. DT Arthur Jones - Syracuse
3. CB Alterraun Verner - UCLA
4. OC Eric Olsen - Notre Dame
6. ILB Joe Pawelek - Baylor
7. P Matt Dodge - East Carolina

This thread made me think about your sig mock draft.

I believe that marshal would get the 2.5 mil (1st and 3rd) rd tender compensation because its a win win for us. Either we get to keep him (a top 5 receiver) for 2.5 mil or we get to get compensated a 1st and 3rd rounder to let him go bother another team.

I'm assuming your mock draft is replacing Brandon and assuming he is gone. We'd at least get a 1st and 3rd pick for him leaving (no matter the reason because of the tender right???) If this is the case then you may want to include these in your Mock Draft.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

This thread made me think about your sig mock draft.

I believe that marshal would get the 2.5 mil (1st and 3rd) rd tender compensation because its a win win for us. Either we get to keep him (a top 5 receiver) for 2.5 mil or we get to get compensated a 1st and 3rd rounder to let him go bother another team.

I'm assuming your mock draft is replacing Brandon and assuming he is gone. We'd at least get a 1st and 3rd pick for him leaving (no matter the reason because of the tender right???) If this is the case then you may want to include these in your Mock Draft.

Actually, no. I've had this mock draft for a few months now. I just think Dez Bryant is the Best Available Player when we select, and we could certainly use another offensive threat across from Marshall. As well as insurance should Marshall get suspended for 8-16 games.

Also, as far as the tender question, it's not always as simple as that. Could we 1st and 3rd tender him, hope a team signs him, and refuse to match, thus receiving those selections? Yes. Is that likely to happen? No. Teams know we are desperate to unload him, and they also know Marshall's risk. A good example is the Tampa Bay beat writer saying today there is no chance Tampa would take a financial risk on a troublemaker like Marshall. So, what will likely happen is that we work out a trade with another team for compromise value. I believe two 2nd rounders, or maybe an early pick this year and another in 2011.

[Al Wilson 4 Mayor]

Actually, no. I've had this mock draft for a few months now. I just think Dez Bryant is the Best Available Player when we select, and we could certainly use another offensive threat across from Marshall. As well as insurance should Marshall get suspended for 8-16 games.

Also, as far as the tender question, it's not always as simple as that. Could we 1st and 3rd tender him, hope a team signs him, and refuse to match, thus receiving those selections? Yes. Is that likely to happen? No. Teams know we are desperate to unload him, and they also know Marshall's risk. A good example is the Tampa Bay beat writer saying today there is no chance Tampa would take a financial risk on a troublemaker like Marshall. So, what will likely happen is that we work out a trade with another team for compromise value. I believe two 2nd rounders, or maybe an early pick this year and another in 2011.

The Tampa writer also went on to say he thought the statement from the Buc's would not hurt the Broncos ability to get value for him when March comes.

I saw a previous article, yesterday I believe, in which another writer (Denver Post?) stated he thought that Brandon being benched did not hurt his value. Mutliple teams will come calling.

I agree with you in that his illustrious track record hurts his value, but I also think that with 4 or 5 teams inquiring about him, one of them is very probable to overpay and give us a 1st and a 3rd.

[fullcollapse]

I think tag and trade will be the name of the game this offseason.
Making it really hard to speculate about what's going to happen in FA.

Barriers to trade are no fun when you're the guy with
the commodity that's rotting in your inventory.

[IronFootball]

Actually, no. I've had this mock draft for a few months now. I just think Dez Bryant is the Best Available Player when we select, and we could certainly use another offensive threat across from Marshall. As well as insurance should Marshall get suspended for 8-16 games.

He may be the best available player but for whose team?? If you watched the season this year I'd hope you see that our problems lie more on the offensive line and interior D (NT, DT, ILB). Our receivers are probably one of our strongest position on the team, Marshal/Royal with Gaffney, Stokley, and Loyd making plays this year. We would need to look at our actual serious problems on the team before we even consider a WR (maybe 4 round and later) unless we got compensation for marshal. So no, I have to strongly voice that a WR round 1 would be a terrible choice.

Also, as far as the tender question, it's not always as simple as that. Could we 1st and 3rd tender him, hope a team signs him, and refuse to match, thus receiving those selections? Yes. Is that likely to happen? No. Teams know we are desperate to unload him, and they also know Marshall's risk. A good example is the Tampa Bay beat writer saying today there is no chance Tampa would take a financial risk on a troublemaker like Marshall. So, what will likely happen is that we work out a trade with another team for compromise value. I believe two 2nd rounders, or maybe an early pick this year and another in 2011.

And yeah, it could turn into a sign and trade for a compromised value but I don't think McDaniel's will give him up for less than a first round when he is restricted for at least one year where we could get compensated for his talent (which i agree with AlWilson) will get value just by the pure stats he has produced.

We can tender him, he gets no offers because of his so called value drop (unlikely), and we get him for cheap one year contract. Unlikely, someone will want him, only one team wins the bowl.

We can tender him, he gets an offer and we let him go getting a first and third draft pick. Very likely in my mind with his talent and ability shown by stats (Tied for 3rd in completions).

Or, we can tender him, a team gives him an offer, we say **** it and match it as long as there isn't a poison pill in the contract. It would be funny to see if he'd be happy he finally got paid, or just pissed he couldn't get out of Denver and is stuck here even longer.

The only other option that could happen is if (like you said) we downgraded compensation for an unbelievably talented athlete in a sign and trade. Again, I don't think McDaniel will let him go without a strong compensation when we get him for cheap. At least, I would think that would be a poor idea.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

He may be the best available player but for whose team?? If you watched the season this year I'd hope you see that our problems lie more on the offensive line and interior D (NT, DT, ILB). Our receivers are probably one of our strongest position on the team, Marshal/Royal with Gaffney, Stokley, and Loyd making plays this year. We would need to look at our actual serious problems on the team before we even consider a WR (maybe 4 round and later) unless we got compensation for marshal. So no, I have to strongly voice that a WR round 1 would be a terrible choice.

We differ in opinion then. I saw Ron Fields play very well as our starting NT. I also saw Andra Davis and DJ Williams play very well as our ILBs. I saw terrible play from all of our DEs except Vonnie Holliday. I saw solid CB play from our starters, but acknowledge we need depth. I saw excellent Safety play from everyone. That's our strongest position by a mile.

You claim WR is a team strength. It is not. We had zero deep threat or presence until Week 17. Marshall is a slow WR that can't get down field in time to be a consistent deep threat. He's also not very agile. When is the last time we've ever seen him make dynamic diving catches? And if the pass is misthrown just a tad, he's flat out terrible on making adjustments unless his one-handed stab technique can be used. He's a #2 WR in the NFL as a possession and YAC guy. Royal was crushed at the line this year, knocked off his routes all the time, and has never been a deep threat in his life. Not here, not at Virginia Tech. His best deep year was last year with Cutler when he caught a grand total of 4 passes over 20 yards. And that's with Cutler passing the ball a record amount of times. If you want to know why we never threw deep, it was because these two were starting for us. We put Gaffney and Lloyd in as starters, and holy crap, we can throw deep.

The problem there is that Lloyd might not be retained. Gaffney isn't exactly a difference making WR, though I suspect he'd be a quality #2. Stokes probably doesn't return. McKinley hasn't shown much, but he was just a rook.

You see a talented WR corps, I do not. I see a great short yardage, possession WR (Marshall), I see a returner/slot WR masquerading as an outside WR (Royal), a serviceable #2 WR (Gaffney), a 5th Round Rookie (McKinley), and two old vets that nobody else really wants (Stokley, Lloyd). Looking at the dynamic of the Pats offense, we are missing Randy Moss. That electric WR that can make plays on the deep ball and take it to the house with every catch. That's why we need Dez Bryant. He's a big WR, that is absolutely elite at the deep pass, he's extremely agile and elusive, and he's an awesome return specialist.

Also, who else at #10 Overall, would you take? There are no interior O-linemen to take at that point. There are no 3-4 DEs to take at that point. So, you could trade down, but you would lose an elite talent. Or, you could stay put and draft a difference maker. I think you take the elite player, especially when you need one.

And yeah, it could turn into a sign and trade for a compromised value but I don't think McDaniel's will give him up for less than a first round when he is restricted for at least one year where we could get compensated for his talent (which i agree with AlWilson) will get value just by the pure stats he has produced.

We can tender him, he gets no offers because of his so called value drop (unlikely), and we get him for cheap one year contract. Unlikely, someone will want him, only one team wins the bowl.

We can tender him, he gets an offer and we let him go getting a first and third draft pick. Very likely in my mind with his talent and ability shown by stats (Tied for 3rd in completions).

Or, we can tender him, a team gives him an offer, we say **** it and match it as long as there isn't a poison pill in the contract. It would be funny to see if he'd be happy he finally got paid, or just pissed he couldn't get out of Denver and is stuck here even longer.

The only other option that could happen is if (like you said) we downgraded compensation for an unbelievably talented athlete in a sign and trade. Again, I don't think McDaniel will let him go without a strong compensation when we get him for cheap. At least, I would think that would be a poor idea.

Whom is going to offer us a 1st Round pick for a #2 WR in Marshall, whom wants to be paid Top 5 money (8-10 million per year), is a massive prima donna and known woman beater, and is one mistake from being suspended a minimum of 8 games?

Especially when they know he's a locker room cancer for us, the veterans want him off the team, and the coach is clearly exasperated with his antics? We might just pay someone to take him at this point (sarcasm). Hell, Shanahan won't even touch him and the Redskins need WR help. That says alot there.

When Randy Moss was a malcontent in Oakland, did he fetch 1st and 3rd draft picks? He was clearly more talented than Marshall.

When Terrell Owens was a malcontent with every one of his teams, did he fetch 1st and 3rd round picks? He was clearly more talented than Marshall.

Did teams pass on DeSean Jackson in the draft, knowing he was a dynamic WR, simply because they didn't want a moody, problem child? Yes. It took until the middle of the 2nd round before someone drafted a Top 15 talent.


The NFL is a business, and like any decent businessperson knows, you buy low and sell high. Marshall's value is at a low, I agree, so it's time to buy. However, you're suggesting market price. That's not buying low. That's not good business. Nobody is going to take this problem child and pay him all the guaranteed money in the world while ignoring his risk. Baltimore is the only team that might even give it a thought. What a team will do is say they will take Marshall off our hands at a discounted rate. A 2nd and a 3rd, or two 2nds, or 2 3rds. And we will say yes. I do not believe, and I could be wrong, but I do not believe McD will want the headaches that come with Marshall if we keep him here another year for "cheap".

[spcdlee02]

Looking at all the arguements in this thread, everyone makes good sense. What I see happening is that we will tender Marsh for the 1st and 3rd value. There could be a couple teams that may bite. I just don't see that many teams biting though. Alot of teams this year that looked like they may have probs at WR had some 1st and 2nd year guys step up and play pretty well. Given that it will reduce the pool of teams.

I still think the Bucs are in the mix regardless of what was reported. Teams will never come out and say, especially right now with the uncertainty of the CBA, yeah we want this guy. They know he is going to be a RFA so they won't come out now and say it. We would obviously sign him to the 1st and 3rd tender at that point knowing someone is already very interested. They, along with every team in the league, will wait to see what tenders come out on all RFA's before we see any real dealing happen anywhere.

There is too much uncertainty right now for ANY team to show their hand just yet.

I think that all the speculation on this offseason should really wait until after Mar 1st to see what happens with the CBA. Then we can go nuts on these boards with wild speculations!!!!

[Buenacolt11]

Looking at all the arguements in this thread, everyone makes good sense. What I see happening is that we will tender Marsh for the 1st and 3rd value. There could be a couple teams that may bite. I just don't see that many teams biting though. Alot of teams this year that looked like they may have probs at WR had some 1st and 2nd year guys step up and play pretty well. Given that it will reduce the pool of teams.

I still think the Bucs are in the mix regardless of what was reported. Teams will never come out and say, especially right now with the uncertainty of the CBA, yeah we want this guy. They know he is going to be a RFA so they won't come out now and say it. We would obviously sign him to the 1st and 3rd tender at that point knowing someone is already very interested. They, along with every team in the league, will wait to see what tenders come out on all RFA's before we see any real dealing happen anywhere.

There is too much uncertainty right now for ANY team to show their hand just yet.

I think that all the speculation on this offseason should really wait until after Mar 1st to see what happens with the CBA. Then we can go nuts on these boards with wild speculations!!!!

Good take and I completely agree.
Al, I dont neccessarily agree with you on the subject of the deep ball. I think Orton plays a large role in all that and it isnt simply a function of WR's not being able to get downfield. I will agree that the WR corp is pedestrian at best and Ive never understood everyone's fascination with the group, outside of Marshall. I like Eddie Royal and I think he can be a productive slot guy, or maybe a viable number 2 with some time and technique, but beyond that there is nuttin to get geeked about. That being said, I dont think Bryant or any other WR is the is the #1 selection for the Broncos. I was looking at the Patriots draft history to attempt to get a flavor of how McD will approach. A lot of defensive focus in the early rounds, by and large. So, if McClain is there, I think he gets drafted. He will not only be a need pick but I believe BPA at that point.

[agentj007]

Excellent post! I think Shanahan and what he does with RFA Campbell will greatly effect the draft and Denver. Oh and if Shany wants Marshall or not.

[samparnell]

This is ...

... an excellent thread, one of the best discussions in a long while. :clap:

Wish I had cps for everyone. :salute!:

Kudos to Broncos TX77 for starting it off! :thumb:

[EddieMac]

We differ in opinion then. I saw Ron Fields play very well as our starting NT. I also saw Andra Davis and DJ Williams play very well as our ILBs. I saw terrible play from all of our DEs except Vonnie Holliday. I saw solid CB play from our starters, but acknowledge we need depth. I saw excellent Safety play from everyone. That's our strongest position by a mile.

You claim WR is a team strength. It is not. We had zero deep threat or presence until Week 17. Marshall is a slow WR that can't get down field in time to be a consistent deep threat. He's also not very agile. When is the last time we've ever seen him make dynamic diving catches? And if the pass is misthrown just a tad, he's flat out terrible on making adjustments unless his one-handed stab technique can be used. He's a #2 WR in the NFL as a possession and YAC guy. Royal was crushed at the line this year, knocked off his routes all the time, and has never been a deep threat in his life. Not here, not at Virginia Tech. His best deep year was last year with Cutler when he caught a grand total of 4 passes over 20 yards. And that's with Cutler passing the ball a record amount of times. If you want to know why we never threw deep, it was because these two were starting for us. We put Gaffney and Lloyd in as starters, and holy crap, we can throw deep.

The problem there is that Lloyd might not be retained. Gaffney isn't exactly a difference making WR, though I suspect he'd be a quality #2. Stokes probably doesn't return. McKinley hasn't shown much, but he was just a rook.

You see a talented WR corps, I do not. I see a great short yardage, possession WR (Marshall), I see a returner/slot WR masquerading as an outside WR (Royal), a serviceable #2 WR (Gaffney), a 5th Round Rookie (McKinley), and two old vets that nobody else really wants (Stokley, Lloyd). Looking at the dynamic of the Pats offense, we are missing Randy Moss. That electric WR that can make plays on the deep ball and take it to the house with every catch. That's why we need Dez Bryant. He's a big WR, that is absolutely elite at the deep pass, he's extremely agile and elusive, and he's an awesome return specialist.

Also, who else at #10 Overall, would you take? There are no interior O-linemen to take at that point. There are no 3-4 DEs to take at that point. So, you could trade down, but you would lose an elite talent. Or, you could stay put and draft a difference maker. I think you take the elite player, especially when you need one.






Whom is going to offer us a 1st Round pick for a #2 WR in Marshall, whom wants to be paid Top 5 money (8-10 million per year), is a massive prima donna and known woman beater, and is one mistake from being suspended a minimum of 8 games?

Especially when they know he's a locker room cancer for us, the veterans want him off the team, and the coach is clearly exasperated with his antics? We might just pay someone to take him at this point (sarcasm). Hell, Shanahan won't even touch him and the Redskins need WR help. That says alot there.

When Randy Moss was a malcontent in Oakland, did he fetch 1st and 3rd draft picks? He was clearly more talented than Marshall.

When Terrell Owens was a malcontent with every one of his teams, did he fetch 1st and 3rd round picks? He was clearly more talented than Marshall.

Did teams pass on DeSean Jackson in the draft, knowing he was a dynamic WR, simply because they didn't want a moody, problem child? Yes. It took until the middle of the 2nd round before someone drafted a Top 15 talent.


The NFL is a business, and like any decent businessperson knows, you buy low and sell high. Marshall's value is at a low, I agree, so it's time to buy. However, you're suggesting market price. That's not buying low. That's not good business. Nobody is going to take this problem child and pay him all the guaranteed money in the world while ignoring his risk. Baltimore is the only team that might even give it a thought. What a team will do is say they will take Marshall off our hands at a discounted rate. A 2nd and a 3rd, or two 2nds, or 2 3rds. And we will say yes. I do not believe, and I could be wrong, but I do not believe McD will want the headaches that come with Marshall if we keep him here another year for "cheap".

You forget the opposite side of the coin. Roy Williams + 7th for a 1st, 3rd and 6th. He was no where near as productive as Marshall and a whiner too.

Someone will bite if we do it. I think Baltimore if they don't go far in the playoffs or Washington. Remember a playoff team is giving up a whole lot less for Marshall if thier pick is in the bottom 10 of the first round. That makes him a bargain.

[Mat'hir Uth Gan]

You forget the opposite side of the coin. Roy Williams + 7th for a 1st, 3rd and 6th. He was no where near as productive as Marshall and a whiner too.

Someone will bite if we do it. I think Baltimore if they don't go far in the playoffs or Washington. Remember a playoff team is giving up a whole lot less for Marshall if thier pick is in the bottom 10 of the first round. That makes him a bargain.

I'm glad you mentioned Roy Williams because I think that actually hurts us. The entire NFL, outside of Jerry Jones, thought that was a ridiculous trade when it happened. Now, it looks like one of the dumbest trades of all time.

That just reinforces the notion that teams won't give us top value for Marshall. If there was a chance, Roy Williams killed it for us.

Plus, the exceptional circumstances dictated that trade. You had one of two owners in the NFL (Al Davis being the other), that effectively trump the football operations side of their teams. Jones, a diehard Longhorns fan, wanted to bring the local hero home to Texas. So, you had a guy that doesn't know football, get influenced by personal visions of grandeur and favorable reminiscience, with the power to trump the 100 employees that told him not to do it. Jerry Jones has learned his lesson after watching Williams drop ball after ball and struggle this year. So, he's out. We'll assume Al Davis doesn't go after a slow WR like Marshall. That's it. There's no more crazy owners out there.

And, it is worth pointing out that Williams did not come with the character risk and financial suspension risks that Marshall does. Also, Williams does have some speed and was a Top 10 draft pick, which suggests his potential. Marshall was a 4th Round guy, that does not have deep speed nor the agility required to be a deep threat, that drops 20% of his passes, has massive amounts of run-ins with the law, has worn out his welcome with two coaching staffs (Shanahan and McD), has rubbed respected veterans the wrong way, has shown a lack of maturity in practice and dealing with adversity, has been accused of faking hamstring injuries multiple times, is going to demand top dollar, is one mistake from an 8 game suspension at a minimum, and the entire world knows he and Denver are heading towards a divorce.

So, again, why would he fetch market value, which is a 1st and 3rd, and essentially what Roy Williams was traded for? When Williams came without 9/10ths of the baggage, was extremely productive for the Lions, was a Top 10 draft choice, and was not at odds with the Lions organization and forcing a trade? Keep in mind, no other teams were willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for Williams. And Dallas had to ante up that amount to pry him from the Lions whom did not have to trade him.

If it was as simple as Brandon Marshall, a great WR, that we did not have to trade, then yes, I think we could get a 1st and 3rd. However, we have Brandon Marshall, the massive knucklehead, that is publically forcing a trade through his antics. If his value at peak level is a 1st and 3rd, then his value as he stands now is substantially less. How much less, we shall find out.