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  • #31
    I never understood the hype with Mario Fannin. Better off keeping JJ if that were the case.

    I really would like to take an aggressive CB in the 1st or 2nd. My biggest problem with Goodman is that he can't tackle... AT ALL. He's a decent player but he's really inconsistent.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
      I'm going to have to disagree on the running back situation.

      Fannin is an undrafted rookie coming off a torn ACL, who didn't have 100 total carries in his junior and senior seasons combined. I don't think he's a guy that precludes using a high draft pick on a running back.

      McGahee is going to be 31. Among the NFL's top 35 rushers this season, McGahee is one of two players at or above the age of 30. If he's got another year of this kind of production, it'll be a miracle. He's missed 1 game and he's been limited by injury in 4 others this season. Knowshon is not an every down back, and Lance Ball is not a suitable back-up -- especially not for a team that runs as often as we do. As of now, if McGahee goes down, we don't have a capable alternative. And when McGahee inevitably declines due to age, which could be as early as next season, we have nothing at the RB position.

      Also disagree strongly on Goodman. There aren't a plethora of objective sources that rate individual players, so it's mostly just a matter of opinion. But Scouts Inc. has him in a 7-way tie for the 74th best cornerback in the NFL. I think that's fair, and given his age (33), I'd say quite a few players that are currently worse than him will be better by next season.

      I do agree that he gets picked on because of Champ. But he also gets far more safety help, and for as often as he's picked on, he should have far more than 2 interceptions and 9 passes defended. There are 63 players with at least 10 passes defended, and 56 with at least 3 interceptions.
      Originally posted by Amari24 View Post
      I never understood the hype with Mario Fannin. Better off keeping JJ if that were the case.

      I really would like to take an aggressive CB in the 1st or 2nd. My biggest problem with Goodman is that he can't tackle... AT ALL. He's a decent player but he's really inconsistent.
      First, number of college carries aside, many players come off ACL injuries and are just fine, with little to no drop in production, so that's not really a factor, and he was having an outstanding pre-season until he got hurt. He was looking better than JJ and Ball, and a key factor is, once again, the staff was pretty excited about him.

      Despite your concerns, I think they guys who get paid to make the decisions will probably want to see how Fannin can do before trying to upgrade a position that doesn't really seem like much of a weak point at this point in time beyond the fact that our starter is a bit long in the tooth.

      And back to Goody, I can't seem to find any rankings put out by Scouts Inc for the public to see, so all I can go by is what you've quoted.

      Goodman has more tackles than Champ(so I guess he CAN tackle) and he's made some really key tackles at times. Sure he's missed some, but everyone misses a tackle now and then.

      Goodman 48 tackles, 9 passes defended and 2 INTs, one for a pick 6.

      Champ has 36 tackles, 8 passes defended 2 INTs and a FF.

      Goodman is actually ranked higher than Champ, according to ESPN.



      And Goodman is ranked right along side other starting CB's like Ronde Barber and Dunta Robinson, both still considered to be in the top end of the league. He's ranked above CBs like Terrance Newman and Leon Hall, both also considered some of the better CBs in the league.

      So I can play the stats game too, and win.

      Do we need a CB? Yes. Is it because Goody is garbage? No. It's because they're both old as dirt, man.

      Like I said before, and I stand by it, Goody would be the #1 CB on at least 10 teams, and I think that's a conservative estimate.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
        I agree with Jet. The Goody is Garbge stuff is complete non sense. He struggles but no matter who you have next to Champ they will get made to look bad at times. The only way I want to see Goody replaced is if we get Terrell Thomas. I wouldn't even want to replace Goody with a rookie unless it is Claiborbe or Kirk. And this Jenkins is the best cover corner in recent years is bogus. Just last year there were 3 guys I would prefer over him. In the last 2 years I think the following are better than Jenkins in terms of cover. Jimmy Smith, Prince Amukamara, Patrick Peterson, Dre Kirkpatrick, Claiborne.
        Nonsense, bogus -- based on what? Your opinion? Those are strong words for unsubstantiated subjectivity.

        Scouts, Inc. has him ranked #74 -- there are 32 teams in the NFL. That means that, assuming every team has a top-73 CB that is their #1, there are 41 non-#1 CBs dispersed around the NFL that are better than Goodman. "Garbage" may be a harsh term, but according to them, he's clearly a poor option as your #2 CB. And considering he is funneled so much action as teams avoid Bailey, he has an exceptionally low number of INTs and PDs.

        Additionally, Scouts, Inc. rates Jenkins' cover skills as better than all of your choices except Jimmy Smith, who also receives their highest mark in the category.

        My opinion is independent of Scouts; they're not infallible. They're simply an objective reference.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by jetrazor74 View Post
          First, number of college carries aside, many players come off ACL injuries and are just fine, with little to no drop in production, so that's not really a factor, and he was having an outstanding pre-season until he got hurt. He was looking better than JJ and Ball, and a key factor is, once again, the staff was pretty excited about him.

          Despite your concerns, I think they guys who get paid to make the decisions will probably want to see how Fannin can do before trying to upgrade a position that doesn't really seem like much of a weak point at this point in time beyond the fact that our starter is a bit long in the tooth.

          And back to Goody, I can't seem to find any rankings put out by Scouts Inc for the public to see, so all I can go by is what you've quoted.

          Goodman has more tackles than Champ(so I guess he CAN tackle) and he's made some really key tackles at times. Sure he's missed some, but everyone misses a tackle now and then.

          Goodman 48 tackles, 9 passes defended and 2 INTs, one for a pick 6.

          Champ has 36 tackles, 8 passes defended 2 INTs and a FF.

          Goodman is actually ranked higher than Champ, according to ESPN.



          And Goodman is ranked right along side other starting CB's like Ronde Barber and Dunta Robinson, both still considered to be in the top end of the league. He's ranked above CBs like Terrance Newman and Leon Hall, both also considered some of the better CBs in the league.

          So I can play the stats game too, and win.

          Do we need a CB? Yes. Is it because Goody is garbage? No. It's because they're both old as dirt, man.

          Like I said before, and I stand by it, Goody would be the #1 CB on at least 10 teams, and I think that's a conservative estimate.
          That's all fair. I see your point on the RB situation. I disagree, but I'm following the rationale. My problem is that I don't trust McGahee to have a productive season at 31, and I don't have any faith in Ball/JJ/Fannin. If you were to guarantee me McGahee a) stays healthy and b) doesn't experience a major drop-off, I'd feel much more comfortable waiting a year to draft a RB. I just don't trust in that. And if he's not getting it done, the rest of our RB position is very weak. Ball is a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency type option, not a legitimate #2. And Moreno isn't an every down back. For a run-heavy team, that won't get it done. I also don't share the high hopes on Fannin. He's been extremely injury prone (was hurt basically every year of college), he's coming off ACL surgery, and he wasn't really all that great in college to begin with.

          I think the rankings on Goodman are Insider only from ESPN. They rate every player on a 10-100 scale. Andre Goodman is rated a 65, which has him tied at 74 with 6 other guys. Your point regarding the stats is well-taken, but my point isn't that all good CBs accumulate stats. Champ is a prime example of that. But if you're going to excuse him for being beaten so often because he receives disproportionate action (due to Champ), then I'd think he should accumulate a relatively high number of stats in response.

          But regardless, the question of Goodman is a matter of opinion. We obviously have vastly different opinions, since I think he's a below-average #2, and you think he's a roughly average #1. I don't think there's any way to objectively prove one way or the other -- just have to agree to disagree. But we do agree on the fact that age is a major factor in drafting a CB. Both Goodman and Bailey are probably done as CBs in 2-3 years max.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
            Nonsense, bogus -- based on what? Your opinion? Those are strong words for unsubstantiated subjectivity.

            Scouts, Inc. has him ranked #74 -- there are 32 teams in the NFL. That means that, assuming every team has a top-73 CB that is their #1, there are 41 non-#1 CBs dispersed around the NFL that are better than Goodman. "Garbage" may be a harsh term, but according to them, he's clearly a poor option as your #2 CB. And considering he is funneled so much action as teams avoid Bailey, he has an exceptionally low number of INTs and PDs.

            Additionally, Scouts, Inc. rates Jenkins' cover skills as better than all of your choices except Jimmy Smith, who also receives their highest mark in the category.

            My opinion is independent of Scouts; they're not infallible. They're simply an objective reference.
            Mind posting your link to your references? I can't find it.

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            • #36


              Follow full coverage of Janoris Jenkins during the 2012 NFL Draft on ESPN.com


              It's Insider only from ESPN.

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              • #37
                It is interesting to note just how many current Broncos are free agents.
                I don't know how realistic it is to see alot of them re-signed. Players like Wesley Woodyard,
                Joe Mays and Daniel Fells, for example are easily replaced, IMO.

                It all depends on the contracts.

                Lofton would be a great signing, but I don't think Atlanta let's him go.

                Broderick Bunkley could demand Barry Cofield money (6yrs, $36 mil if memory serves), and just as we once did in paying Gerard Warren market value, are we going to pay that kind of money for a player the Eagles clearly no longer wanted?

                Is he the classic case of a guy having a contract year?

                That's my concern. Should we just draft a DT in the first round and go in that direction?

                I like Bunkley, but he has to come back reasonably.

                As for your mock, I like alot of the players. I see Doug Martin more as a third round possibility, and I love Cam Johnson. He would be absolutely AWESOME as a third round pick, if not higher.

                I don't see any way the Broncos draft Jenkins after the character debacle with Perrish Cox, and I think the Broncos will jump all over Mississippi St DT Fletcher Cox if they can, and as far as I am concerned, he is the leader in the clubhouse to be the Broncos first round pick. His overall athleticism, versatility and is going to be very appealing to Fox, and Elway will still focus on re-building the defense.

                The good news is, there are good corner prospects to consider in the third round if the Broncos do go QB in the second round, as I expect.

                Marcus Fortson could be a find in the right round.

                Travis Benjamin is a real interesting player as a deep threat and kick returner. He is pencil thin, but an electric player to be sure.
                Last edited by MindField; 12-27-2011, 12:51 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by JayJack View Post
                  I agree. I think addressing the RB position can wait 1 more year. I think we'll run a 3 back system like Dallas did with Barber, Jones and Choice. Also like the Giants did with Jacobs, Bradshaw, and Derrick Ward. We'll probably ride with McGahee, Moreno, and/or Fannin/JJ.
                  If Moreno recovers, i think so too, we could wait for 2013 to address the RB spot.

                  As well as Ball too in the mix, i like the way he runs.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
                    If Moreno recovers, i think so too, we could wait for 2013 to address the RB spot.

                    As well as Ball too in the mix, i like the way he runs.
                    Yea I purposely left Ball out. He's a Exclusive Rights FA. I'm looking for somebody to get traded for a 6th rd pick so that we can use it to give to the Browns for Quinn. That would allow us to keep our 2 5ths. Matthew Willis is a RFA, but i'm not convinced he'll get traded.
                    sigpic

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
                      Nonsense, bogus -- based on what? Your opinion? Those are strong words for unsubstantiated subjectivity.
                      1: Yes my opinion by applying what I know and understand to the situation. Andre Goodman plays across from Champ Bailey. He is going to get targeted. And a lot. And if you watch on every play a guy may get open and not get the ball. A lot of things affects who gets targeted. Quarterbacks are not just dropping back and saying find who ever is open. It is designed to a defense and on ours the offense tries to keep away from Bailey. So when Goodman does make a mistake it gets amplified. And if you look at Perrish Cox last year. He had a much tougher time playing opposite Champ. Sure he was a rookie but Goodman is a very solid number 2 cornerback.

                      2: How the hell is what I am saying unsubstantiated subjectivity. I am not subjective at all on the topic. I am speaking on what I see. I know what I am watching. I did not follow Goodman here to Denver. He is not a relative. There is no reason what so ever for me to have one opinion one way or the other. Completely objective opinion. And I have watched every single snap of his Denver Broncos career except for against Buffalo just last week but I will watch that game this week.

                      And just tell me if you have your own definition for this term as well. Just make sure this time you don't contradict it with your examples Remember that. Good times

                      Scouts, Inc. has him ranked #74 -- there are 32 teams in the NFL. That means that, assuming every team has a top-73 CB that is their #1, there are 41 non-#1 CBs dispersed around the NFL that are better than Goodman. "Garbage" may be a harsh term, but according to them, he's clearly a poor option as your #2 CB. And considering he is funneled so much action as teams avoid Bailey, he has an exceptionally low number of INTs and PDs.
                      Do you have the target stats for me please. And what is this scouts inc basing there grading systems on. I bet it is on statistical data which does not and never does show the full story. The stats don't show the logical and correct argument that playing opposite Champ funnels more attention to your man who you are covering.

                      Additionally, Scouts, Inc. rates Jenkins' cover skills as better than all of your choices except Jimmy Smith, who also receives their highest mark in the category.
                      Yeah well Jimmy Smith was an amazing cover corner in college but as I said what you are saying in he is the best in years is not true. All of the guys I said are all very good at their craft and you saying he is one of the best in years is simply not true. And also I bet these are based off of stats as well. Jimmy Smith had something like 12 targets his senior year or something. I bet stats play a role in these assesments.

                      My opinion is independent of Scouts; they're not infallible. They're simply an objective reference.
                      As are mine. Try doing some research yourself though. It may help. And understanding and applying that to teams and the situations does count. Stats are not the be all and end all especially in football.

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