Amobi Okoye?

[broncos SB2010]

He had 4 sacks in a backup role last year. He is like 23 or 24 years old. He was let go after being a starter in Houston because of scheme change. He is no bust, atleast make sure you are well informed.

if he was so good, why didn't they play him at DE in the new scheme?

[SoundsOfSuccess]

Lets look at some other teams starters:

Ravens: a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd round pick
Steelers: 2 1st rounders and a 7th rounder
Raiders: 2 1st rounders
Jaguars: a 1st and a 3rd
Texans: a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, and a 5th rounder

what do you see here? Lots of 1st and 2nd rounders? Wow!!! Imagine that!!!

The even funnier thing is that the two 43 defenses you presented both belong to non-playoff teams..

[broncos SB2010]

The even funnier thing is that the two 43 defenses you presented both belong to non-playoff teams..

all of those teams have very good DT starters, some of the best in the league. They are also some of the best defenses in the league. Ignore that all you want.

[SoundsOfSuccess]

all of those teams have very good DT starters, some of the best in the league. They are also some of the best defenses in the league. Ignore that all you want.

Stop comparing 34 defenses to 43. It's apples to oranges.

Second, your point is coming off as "these teams invested in DTs and suck, so therefore Denver should invest in DTs". If that's not the point you're trying to make, you might want clarify..

[broncos SB2010]

Stop comparing 34 defenses to 43. It's apples to oranges.

Second, your point is coming off as "these teams invested in DTs and suck, so therefore Denver should invest in DTs". If that's not the point you're trying to make, you might want clarify..

it's not apples to oranges, sorry. A DT is a DT. Similar skill sets and many of those players play in 3 man fronts as well as 4 man fronts. You can argue all you want that it's a waste to take a DT in the first round, yet most of the top DT were taken first round and many of the top defenses took their interior Dlinemen in the first round and/or second. You arguing against it is beyond my comprehension. Sure, you can find decent Dlinemen in the later rounds, is that very likely? No.

[SoundsOfSuccess]

it's not apples to oranges, sorry. A DT is a DT. Similar skill sets and many of those players play in 3 man fronts as well as 4 man fronts. You can argue all you want that it's a waste to take a DT in the first round, yet most of the top DT were taken first round and many of the top defenses took their interior Dlinemen in the first round and/or second. You arguing against it is beyond my comprehension. Sure, you can find decent Dlinemen in the later rounds, is that very likely? No.

I am aware what you're not comprehending much of this argument.

To say a 34 defense is the same as a 43 is well.. not intelligent. Not only is there only one DT on the field instead of 2, but he's typically much heavier and not expected to get to the passer whatsoever. That said, it is incredibly important, because if he can't get a double team, the running game will have two wide open A gaps on every single running play, resulting from the guards immediately blocking to the second level. A 34 defense needs quality in the front 3 to make up for its lack of quantity in big boys up there.

Whereas in a 43 defense, you need one of your two DTs to grab a double team, assuming your linebackers are capable of filling their gaps. Quantity makes up for quality. That's why we see defenses led by Rocky Bernard and Chris Canty at DT and Henry Melton and Matt Toeaina excelling.

DT in a 43 is not an important position to invest into, ask the Raiders and Jaguars and Vikings how far that has gotten them.

[Ohenhen12345]

if he was so good, why didn't they play him at DE in the new scheme?

The guy was a starter for Houston, 1st round draft pick at 19. Not easy to start in the NFL. A bust doesn't usually start 16 games in the NFL and then have 4 sacks in a backup role in Chicago.

[broncos SB2010]

I am aware what you're not comprehending much of this argument.

To say a 34 defense is the same as a 43 is well.. not intelligent. Not only is there only one DT on the field instead of 2, but he's typically much heavier and not expected to get to the passer whatsoever. That said, it is incredibly important, because if he can't get a double team, the running game will have two wide open A gaps on every single running play, resulting from the guards immediately blocking to the second level. A 34 defense needs quality in the front 3 to make up for its lack of quantity in big boys up there.

Whereas in a 43 defense, you need one of your two DTs to grab a double team, assuming your linebackers are capable of filling their gaps. Quantity makes up for quality. That's why we see defenses led by Rocky Bernard and Chris Canty at DT and Henry Melton and Matt Toeaina excelling.

DT in a 43 is not an important position to invest into, ask the Raiders and Jaguars and Vikings how far that has gotten them.

Your analysis is inaccurate.

1st. I didn't say the defenses were the same, I said the skill set needed by the DT is similar.

2nd. The 3-4 defense doesn't have 1 DT, it has 3.

3. How do the guards in a 3-4 go immediately to the 2nd level if no double team on the NT when the 3-4 DE are often lined head up (5 technique) on the OT and can slant in?

4. The raiders may have had a low ranked defense but their DT were not the reason. The jags had the 6th ranked defense this past season despite having the 32nd ranked offense and once they get their offense together, they will be a very dangerous team. In 2010 the jags were ranked 28th on defense and 26th in 2009, what happened? Oh ya...they drafted two DT with their first 2 picks in the 2010 offseason and they were in their second season. The vikings had one of the best defenses in the league for many years and it is what kept them in many games and who were the anchors for that defense? Kevin and pat Williams...their DT.

5. You are right about the 3-4 NT not getting many sacks but they do cause pressure by pushing the pocket and the 3-4 DE do get sacks, not many usually, but in the 3-5 range often which is fairly respectable for any DT.


6. Your post isn't even worth a "good try" response.......

[broncos SB2010]

The guy was a starter for Houston, 1st round draft pick at 19. Not easy to start in the NFL. A bust doesn't usually start 16 games in the NFL and then have 4 sacks in a backup role in Chicago.

Jamarcus russell was a 1st overall pick. He started 25 games and threw 18 TDs. Was he a bust?

[SoundsOfSuccess]

Your analysis is inaccurate.

1st. I didn't say the defenses were the same, I said the skill set needed by the DT is similar.

2nd. The 3-4 defense doesn't have 1 DT, it has 3.

3. How do the guards in a 3-4 go immediately to the 2nd level if no double team on the NT when the 3-4 DE are often lined head up (5 technique) on them?

4. The raiders may have had a low ranked defense but their DT were not the reason. The jags had the 6th ranked defense this past season despite having the 32nd ranked offense and once they get their offense together, they will be a very dangerous team. In 2010 the jags were ranked 28th on defense and 26th in 2009, what happened? Oh ya...they drafted two DT with their first 2 picks in the 2010 offseason and they were in their second season. The vikings had one of the best defenses in the league for many years and it is what kept them in many games and who were the anchors for that defense? Kevin and pat Williams...their DT.

5. You are right about the 3-4 NT not getting many sacks but they do cause pressure by pushing the pocket and the 3-4 DE do get sacks, not many usually, but in the 3-5 range often which is fairly respectable for any DT.


6. Your post isn't even worth a "good try" response.......

There is one DT in a 34. The nose tackle. Not 3, not 7, not 8,000. One. 1. Hell, you can even spell it won, it sounds the same.

There are two DEs. Lined up in the B gaps in a base formation. (B gap is the gap between guard and tackle)

You're still ignoring the most important part of football-- winning. When 43 teams invest into defense tackles and have the best, they don't win. Teams with below average defensive tackles win. Teams with great defensive tackles don't. What's so hard to comprehend about that? Investing in other positions has gotten teams much, much more success in the past.

[broncos SB2010]

There is one DT in a 34. The nose tackle. Not 3, not 7, not 8,000. One. 1. Hell, you can even spell it won, it sounds the same.

There are two DEs. Lined up in the B gaps in a base formation. (B gap is the gap between guard and tackle)

You're still ignoring the most important part of football-- winning. When 43 teams invest into defense tackles and have the best, they don't win. Teams with below average defensive tackles win. Teams with great defensive tackles don't. What's so hard to comprehend about that? Investing in other positions has gotten teams much, much more success in the past.

What is the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT? besides alignment and gap responsibility?

[THEdraftnik]

There is one DT in a 34. The nose tackle. Not 3, not 7, not 8,000. One. 1. Hell, you can even spell it won, it sounds the same.

There are two DEs. Lined up in the B gaps in a base formation. (B gap is the gap between guard and tackle)

You're still ignoring the most important part of football-- winning. When 43 teams invest into defense tackles and have the best, they don't win. Teams with below average defensive tackles win. Teams with great defensive tackles don't. What's so hard to comprehend about that? Investing in other positions has gotten teams much, much more success in the past.

Actually, 3-4 DEs are called 5techs. They get this "nickname" for playing a 5 technique which is outside the the OT, or in the C gap. The only time they play in the B gaps is if they are playing a strong or weak defense and shift the formation over.

And you're ignoring the most important part of winning, and it's called keeping and gaining the lead. If Tom Brady can step up into the pocket, he is good enough to beat us. If Maurice Jones Drew gets enough carries, he can beat us and keep Peyton on the bench.

We already got Manning, just for kicks and giggles... lets go get some run stoppers. That way... teams just won't have a chance.

[SoundsOfSuccess]

What is the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT? besides alignment and gap responsibility?

Nose tackles are typically larger.

Nose tackles don't have as much responsibility in rushing the passer.

Nose tackles typically get more double teams.

A defensive end can disrupt a play by simply containing.

A nose tackle that is large can get by without the neccesarily as much skill.

Example of a nose tackle- Vince Wilfork

Example of an end- Haloti Ngata

[broncos SB2010]

Nose tackles are typically larger.

Nose tackles don't have as much responsibility in rushing the passer.

Nose tackles typically get more double teams.

A defensive end can disrupt a play by simply containing.

A nose tackle that is large can get by without the neccesarily as much skill.

Example of a nose tackle- Vince Wilfork

Example of an end- Haloti Ngata

That doesn't really answer the question.

In my mind this how I see both 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT:

ability to hold their ground against double teams
ability to get off blocks
around 6-4, 300
ability to push the pocket
ability to penetrate into the backfield on occassion
strong at the POA

are you saying Ngata would be a bad NT and Wilfork couldn't play DE or DT in a 4-3?

[SoundsOfSuccess]

Actually, 3-4 DEs are called 5techs. They get this "nickname" for playing a 5 technique which is outside the the OT, or in the C gap. The only time they play in the B gaps is if they are playing a strong or weak defense and shift the formation over.

And you're ignoring the most important part of winning, and it's called keeping and gaining the lead. If Tom Brady can step up into the pocket, he is good enough to beat us. If Maurice Jones Drew gets enough carries, he can beat us and keep Peyton on the bench.

We already got Manning, just for kicks and giggles... lets go get some run stoppers. That way... teams just won't have a chance.

And the formation is commonly shifted, which is where the rush end comes more into play.

So based on the Giants and Bears success versus the Jags, Raiders, and Vikings, do you think its more important the Broncos use a high pick on a run stuffer that can move an offensive lineman and a low pick on a linebacker or end or safety that makes the tackle, or should the Broncos spend a high pick to get an elite backer, end, or safety and get their run stuffer than can move a lineman in the mid to late rounds?