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Denver Post: Broncos Have More Misses Than Hits When Drafting D-Linemen

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cugel View Post
    Moore was not the top FS - he was just the Broncos top FS last season, and as for Austin if they had "character concerns" then why were they interested in Fairley?

    Fairley was perfectly accurately summed up by one NFL personnel guy shortly before the draft as: "a top-ten talent and a top-10 bonehead."

    He was supposedly slipping down the boards from his early pre-draft position as the potential #1 pick due to character concerns, but the Lions still grabbed him in the top 15.

    As for Moore, EFX's verdict after watching him for a year is that they made a mistake.

    They are demoting him from starter to backup and gave Mike Adams a 2 year $4 million contract. Only the first year is guaranteed, but if he does well they'll re-sign him to a longer contract.

    And that will be the end of Rahim Moore. He will backup unless he wins back his starting job.

    And as Shanahan told Foxworth (in an exactly similar situation) when the Broncos brought in Dre Bly to replace him "we're paying him starter money, you can't expect him not to start."
    It was foolish to grab moore when Bowers, Paea, J-Casey, K-Ellis & Austin were still available.

    You know, this happens to me in fantasy drafts sometimes. It's almost like we were locked in to grab Franklin & Jarvis Jenkins... And when WASH grabbed Jenkins at #41 were were shocked and were rushing a decision. We looked up at our board and saw the #1 FS still sitting there, so we wetn back and forth and almost involuntarily went with Moore b/c he was the top guy at his position, and FS was a need.

    I feel when a top 10 talent like Bowers slides all the way into the 40s... And you're a team looking to add talent to your roster, then you better have a good reason to pass on that. If we take Bowers and his medical question marks turn out to be risky, then at least you live with swinging for the fences in the 2nd round.

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    • #32
      I expect Moore to make strides as well as a result of having a full offseason.

      A guy like Moore will really benefit from having a full offseason to really learn the defense in a way that won't be diluted so that he can get on the field quickly. Playing across from Manning in practice should help as well because he will be able to later go to Manning and figure out what he has seen and how he exploited his play in the secondary. I really think if anyone can make a 180 it's a guy like Rahim Moore. He needs to build strength and work on tackling, but I felt as though a lot of the time he was where he needed to be but just could not finish. Once the game slows down for him a bit, I think he will come along. Now, if he will be a starting caliber safety for us that can play at a high level will be very questionable, but at the very least I think he can provide some quality depth and not be the 4th/5th option like he was last year.
      By this time next year Rahim Moore will be totally forgotten. He's been relegated to the bench in a way that indicates that Fox doesn't believe in him.

      If they thought he would develop in the normal way you describe for 2nd year players they would never have signed Mike Adams for $4 million. They would instead have simply kept Moore, and perhaps signed a cheaper backup.

      Moore lost his starting job. Have you ever played team sports and lost your starting role? It's hard to ever get it back. The coaches don't even really consider you any more. They've evaluated you and made their judgment and unless the new guy who took your job screws up, you're sitting on that bench and you're not getting off it.
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cugel View Post
        Well, Powell didn't even make the 53 man roster unless I'm mistaken, so he WAS a bust. You couldn't criticize the pick if he became a backup player who stuck around for 4 years or so.

        That's about all you can expect from a 5th rounder. But, to get nothing at all from him is indicative of a busted pick.

        As for McDaniels and Shanahan being gone, that's true. However, Xanders is still here and he was the GM under McDaniels.

        McDaniels has insisted all along that "Brian was in the war-room on every selection" implying that Xanders was covering his own behind by blaming McDaniels for every draft failure, even when he had a lot to do with them all.

        That's a very plausible scenario. I've never bought the sergeant Shulz line "I was only following orders." I think that while McDaniels was undoubtedly primarily responsible for many of the draft and trade fiascoes of the past administration, Xanders was not entirely the innocent lamb he likes to pretend he was.

        I would have liked to have seen them FIRE his butt along with McDaniels, and sweep them all into the dustbin of history, but I suppose that's water under the bridge.

        We'll all see what happens now. Last year was a big disappointment that they didn't take a DT in the 2nd round instead of Rahim Moore -- whom they have just admitted is only a backup.

        (They brought in Mike Adams for $4 million to take his starting job).
        Lol just because they brought in mike Adams doesn't mean they are saying Moore is a backup. Every spot is up for competition in camp and Moore can definetly improve and I have faith he will
        A healthy Kenneth Dixon is a top 5 NFL RB.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
          Fortunately NEIL SMITH worked out for us in 1997! Alfred Williams, Michael Dean Perry, Keith Traylor were all free agents along w/ draft picks: Maa Tanuvasa & Trevor Pryce.

          We won back-2-back SB titles with that group.
          In 1997 FA was very new and many teams were simply not used to signing or competing for FAs.

          Shanahan blazed the trail by signing a bunch of top flight FAs that other teams weren't even interested in, simply because unlike now, teams didn't sign FAs from other teams much and the Broncos didn't have to pay exorbitant prices for them.

          So the Broncos simply had little competition and could AFFORD to sign Alfred Williams, Michael Dean Perry, and Keith Traylor. Even more incredibly they were able to sign Hall of Fame LT Gary Zimmerman. Hall of Fame LTs simply don't come onto the FA market at all, and if they do it's only when they're totally washed up. A double digit sack DE like Smith would get a $50 million+ contract. Just imagine what Doom would be worth as a FA and you get the idea.

          Today if similarly talented FAs were on the market their combined contracts would total about $150 million.

          The NFL is a copy-cat league and when other teams saw the Broncos win 2 SBs everybody started competing to sign the top FAs and their contracts soared to the point where it was impossible to build your team that way any more.

          No team could afford to sign Neil Smith and Gary Zimmerman and Michael Dean Perry and Keith Traylor and still stay under their cap today. Not even the Redskins would do that.
          Last edited by Cugel; 04-14-2012, 06:03 PM.
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          • #35
            Originally posted by Cugel View Post
            Moore was not the top FS - he was just the Broncos top FS last season, and as for Austin if they had "character concerns" then why were they interested in Fairley?

            Fairley was perfectly accurately summed up by one NFL personnel guy shortly before the draft as: "a top-ten talent and a top-10 bonehead."

            He was supposedly slipping down the boards from his early pre-draft position as the potential #1 pick due to character concerns, but the Lions still grabbed him in the top 15.
            Two things. First, the quality of the player. Fairley was probably the #2 DT on the Broncos' board after a monster season at Auburn. Austin was an average, raw DT at North Carolina, with his potential being based on athletic ability.

            Second, the level of character concerns. No one in the media was really able to specify the character concerns related to Fairley, and he was never suspended as a football player. Austin had "severe character concerns" according to Brian Xanders. Austin was suspended for violating team rules and later dismissed from North Carolina for violations of NCAA agent benefits, preferential treatment and ethical conduct rules.

            The Broncos thought Austin had "severe character concerns" and they probably thought Fairley did not have severe character concerns. Fairley had value to the Broncos as the #2 DT from that class, while Austin probably was not among the top 5 DTs (Dareus, Fairley, Liuget, Taylor, Wilkerson, Jenkins, Paea...) so he was not worth any risk.


            Originally posted by Cugel View Post
            As for Moore, EFX's verdict after watching him for a year is that they made a mistake.

            They are demoting him from starter to backup and gave Mike Adams a 2 year $4 million contract. Only the first year is guaranteed, but if he does well they'll re-sign him to a longer contract.

            And that will be the end of Rahim Moore. He will backup unless he wins back his starting job.

            And as Shanahan told Foxworth (in an exactly similar situation) when the Broncos brought in Dre Bly to replace him "we're paying him starter money, you can't expect him not to start."
            If you think Moore is done because the Broncos signed a free agent, then other players from the 2011 class are also done in Denver.

            The Broncos signed Joe Mays to a 3-year, $12 million contract with $4.5 million guaranteed (horrible deal in my opinion). Is this the end of Nate Irving, the 3rd round pick in 2011?

            The Broncos also signed Jacob Tamme ($9 million) and Joel Dreessen ($8.5 million). Is this the end of Julius Thomas and Virgil Green?

            Even if Moore does not start in 2012, it does not mean he will be cut this year or next year. He can still improve and take the job from Mike Adams or replace him in 2013. The Broncos won't re-sign Brian Dawkins, so they had to sign someone to replace him on the roster.

            With other safeties available in the market, the Broncos chose to sign one of the low profile free agents. Mike Adams is not a very good player and he is not a young player that can be a long-term solution. Rahim Moore still has a future in Denver.
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            • #36
              Originally posted by crash123go View Post
              Lol just because they brought in mike Adams doesn't mean they are saying Moore is a backup. Every spot is up for competition in camp and Moore can definetly improve and I have faith he will
              Watch and learn this season young Padawan!

              $4 million contract means Mike Adams is starting. Moore is a backup.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                Watch and learn this season young Padawan!

                $4 million contract means Mike Adams is starting. Moore is a backup.
                2-year, $4 million contract with $2 million guaranteed. I don't think the Broncos would force an inferior player as a starter just because he has a $2 million salary/year. If Moore plays better than Adams before the season starts, he will be the starter. And we also can't forget David Bruton, who started 3 straight games (week 17 and both playoff games).
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
                  Two things. First, the quality of the player. Fairley was probably the #2 DT on the Broncos' board after a monster season at Auburn. Austin was an average, raw DT at North Carolina, with his potential being based on athletic ability.

                  Second, the level of character concerns. No one in the media was really able to specify the character concerns related to Fairley, and he was never suspended as a football player. Austin had "severe character concerns" according to Brian Xanders. Austin was suspended for violating team rules and later dismissed from North Carolina for violations of NCAA agent benefits, preferential treatment and ethical conduct rules.

                  The Broncos thought Austin had "severe character concerns" and they probably thought Fairley did not have severe character concerns. Fairley had value to the Broncos as the #2 DT from that class, while Austin probably was not among the top 5 DTs (Dareus, Fairley, Liuget, Taylor, Wilkerson, Jenkins, Paea...) so he was not worth any risk.




                  If you think Moore is done because the Broncos signed a free agent, then other players from the 2011 class are also done in Denver.

                  The Broncos signed Joe Mays to a 3-year, $12 million contract with $4.5 million guaranteed (horrible deal in my opinion). Is this the end of Nate Irving, the 3rd round pick in 2011?

                  The Broncos also signed Jacob Tamme ($9 million) and Joel Dreessen ($8.5 million). Is this the end of Julius Thomas and Virgil Green?

                  Even if Moore does not start in 2012, it does not mean he will be cut this year or next year. He can still improve and take the job from Mike Adams or replace him in 2013. The Broncos won't re-sign Brian Dawkins, so they had to sign someone to replace him on the roster.

                  With other safeties available in the market, the Broncos chose to sign one of the low profile free agents. Mike Adams is not a very good player and he is not a young player that can be a long-term solution. Rahim Moore still has a future in Denver.
                  First, who said anything about cutting Moore? They signed him to a 4 year contract. Unless he continues to stagnate he's going to simply play out his contract.

                  Do you remember LB Terry Pierce, also a second round pick? Shanahan relegated him to the bench after his disappointing play and he never recovered.

                  But, they didn't cut him. He sat there for a couple of seasons and so will Moore.

                  Second, your opinion of Adams is flat wrong. He's considered a very good cover FS -- which is exactly why the Broncos signed him.

                  Third, money talks and B.S. walks. $4 million for 2 seasons is not backup money. They brought him here to be a starter and barring him sucking in the pre-season that's exactly what he will do.

                  As for J. Thomas he probably WILL be cut after this season unless he shows a lot more than he has. Unless he gets healthy he doesn't look like a keeper.

                  Nate Irving is probably a career backup and that's what he's going to do this year. Whether you agree with giving Joe Mays $4 million (personally I don't) that's exactly what they did and it tells the world what they think of Irving too. Unless they draft a MLB with the top 1-2 picks Mays is their MLB for the foreseeable future.
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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
                    2-year, $4 million contract with $2 million guaranteed. I don't think the Broncos would force an inferior player as a starter just because he has a $2 million salary/year. If Moore plays better than Adams before the season starts, he will be the starter. And we also can't forget David Bruton, who started 3 straight games (week 17 and both playoff games).
                    yes we can. He won't be in consideration for starting parring injury.
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                    • #40
                      Oh, as for Nick Fairley, entering January 2011 he was considered by every draft site I could find to be the #1 most talented defensive player of the entire draft. He had a phenomenal performance in the Bowl game as you may remember.

                      Then after the combine and then after interviews he slid and the "character concerns" emerged. Serious ones. I just quoted one NFL Player personnel directors' verdict on Fairley after interviewing him. The new reports were that a bunch of teams were scared off taking him with a 1st round selection after they met him.

                      I happen to think that those critics were right and that Fairley IS going to be considered a "top-10 bonehead" after all is said and done. Obviously the Lions don't care.

                      And just as obviously the Broncos didn't either if they were really willing to trade up and draft him with their #1 pick as reported.
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
                        2-year, $4 million contract with $2 million guaranteed. I don't think the Broncos would force an inferior player as a starter just because he has a $2 million salary/year. If Moore plays better than Adams before the season starts, he will be the starter. And we also can't forget David Bruton, who started 3 straight games (week 17 and both playoff games).
                        What you believe about "inferior players" isn't relevant. Did you read what I posted above about what Shanahan told Foxworth when Foxy went to him and asked whether he could compete for the starting #2 CB slot against Dre Bly?

                        NFL teams make their pay decisions based on their judgments. If Adams comes in and sucks, then yes, Moore could start ahead of him at some point in the season. And then at the end of the season the Broncos would cut Adams and probably look for another starting FS and start HIM ahead of Moore unless he suddenly started playing a LOT better.

                        Moral of the Story: Sure. If the guy they brought in to replace you blows his opportunity you might get a 2nd chance. But, not otherwise. He's not going to win back the starting job in the pre-season! No chance.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                          Oh, as for Nick Fairley, entering January 2011 he was considered by every draft site I could find to be the #1 most talented defensive player of the entire draft. He had a phenomenal performance in the Bowl game as you may remember.

                          Then after the combine and then after interviews he slid and the "character concerns" emerged. Serious ones. I just quoted one NFL Player personnel directors' verdict on Fairley after interviewing him. The new reports were that a bunch of teams were scared off taking him with a 1st round selection after they met him.

                          I happen to think that those critics were right and that Fairley IS going to be considered a "top-10 bonehead" after all is said and done. Obviously the Lions don't care.

                          And just as obviously the Broncos didn't either if they were really willing to trade up and draft him with their #1 pick as reported.
                          I don't remember that, we would of traded our two 2's, and i think our 3rd to get him.

                          Our 1st rounder was down to Miller and Dareus.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                            What you believe about "inferior players" isn't relevant. Did you read what I posted above about what Shanahan told Foxworth when Foxy went to him and asked whether he could compete for the starting #2 CB slot against Dre Bly?
                            Dre Bly was not signed as a free agent, he went to Denver after a trade. The Broncos traded Tatum Bell (2nd round RB), George Foster (1st round OT) and a 5th round pick for Bly. Then, they signed Bly to a 5-year, $33 million deal. $16 million guaranteed. Can you really compare this situation to free agent Mike Adams and his $2 million guaranteed?

                            To be honest, Foxworth could never compete with Dre Bly. Foxworth is a smart guy, active off the field, but he was an awful CB. Bly finished his career with 43 interceptions, 5 returned for touchdowns. Foxworth finished his career with 8 interceptions.

                            Bly was a good CB before his age made him lose a step. He would get beat, but also made big plays. Mike Adams is entering his 9th season. In his 8 seasons, he has only 1 season with 16 games as a starter (2010).

                            Also, Shanahan and Fox are different coaches. Shanahan had a soft camp and he drafted based on need. We don't know how Fox will handle competition during training camp. I think Moore just needs time to learn and get his confidence back.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cugel View Post
                              What? You mean all those amazing FA DL the Broncos have signed over the years? Like:

                              Ebeneezer Ekuban
                              Gerrard Warren
                              Courtney Brown

                              To name a few! And with the re-signing of Justin Bannan, the beat goes on!
                              Those three were good. Engelberger was decent.

                              It does appear the front office has some sort of bias against linemen.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
                                I don't remember that, we would of traded our two 2's, and i think our 3rd to get him.

                                Our 1st rounder was down to Miller and Dareus.
                                I meant they would have traded their 2 #2's and possible more picks to move back into the first round to grab him, NOT that they would take him at #2. Obviously if they wanted Fairley at #2 they could just have drafted him.

                                But the Lions grabbed him at #14. Obviously the Broncos weren't going to move up that high without giving up a massive # of picks, more than just a couple of #2's.

                                If these reports were true, they had to be hoping he'd continue to fall into the 20's due to character concerns and they'd be able to move up.

                                I don't see how they could have ever realistically hoped for this of course. Someone else would probably have taken him in the late teens. When a top 10 talent starts falling, teams start considering changing their board to take advantage.

                                Eventually some team says "we never expected possibly the most talented (if not the safest) DT to still be on the board at #20, we've got to take him!"
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