Johnny Football

[the0rangecrush]

You certainly don't say he "LEAD" the nation. He tied for the lead. The word play is very misleading. Just like he is in a 3-way tie for 2nd in interceptions. The article mentions he is tied for 2nd in interceptions but fails to mention he is tied for first in turnovers. The article also gives zero credit to tackles for a loss, sacks, as well as pass break ups, hurries, and forced fumbles. All important factors in getting a total picture of how effective a defensive player is. The article also has no link to the database of stats used and does not clearly define how they were acquired or how they are collected. Taking statistics courses in college ingrained in me to question where data comes from and how comprehensive it is especially when numbers are thrown around with no link or explanation to the acquisition of the statistics.

He is leading, that's like saying a co-captain isnt a captain. He is leading, whether you like it or not. They clearly state where the information comes from, so whether or not you question it is irrelevant. Just because there is a sheet of data does not ensure it's accurate, the fact that it is displayed and used by the biggest and arguably most reputable sports network should incline you to believe it's true.

[Matymaddog]

He is leading, that's like saying a co-captain isnt a captain. He is leading, whether you like it or not. They clearly state where the information comes from, so whether or not you question it is irrelevant. Just because there is a sheet of data does not ensure it's accurate, the fact that it is displayed and used by the biggest and arguably most reputable sports network should incline you to believe it's true.

When an author makes a specific effort to mention that he is TIED for 2nd in interceptions then it is safe to assume he would also mention he is TIED for 1st in turnovers and would not say he LEADS in turnovers when he is not the UNDISPUTED leader. Also, AGAIN it does not take into account FORCED FUMBLES, SACKS, TACKLES FOR A LOSS, ETCCCCCC


And no, I will not buy into what some random author on ESPN says. There is no proof, no explanation, nothing. It is responsible journalism to at least provide the same opportunity to the readers to examine the data as they do. They do it with all of the other stats, why not this? Why no missed tackle comparisons? Why no mention of his history in college and missed tackles. The data could very well have been grabbed out of thin air. There is no way to confirm or examine it myself. It is laughable to ask me to just believe something because some guy I have never heard of said it was the case. You act as if journalist are always right, yet your whole argument in this entire thread is that they aren't right because Te'O lost and credited journalist are the people that vote on this.

[the0rangecrush]

When an author makes a specific effort to mention that he is TIED for 2nd in interceptions then it is safe to assume he would also mention he is TIED for 1st in turnovers and would not say he LEADS in turnovers when he is not the UNDISPUTED leader. Also, AGAIN it does not take into account FORCED FUMBLES, SACKS, TACKLES FOR A LOSS, ETCCCCCC

it also doesnt take into account completion percentage, sacks, and fumbles. It's not meant to be a comprehensive stat list, just a a quick hit blog...

[Matymaddog]

it also doesnt take into account completion percentage, sacks, and fumbles. It's not meant to be a comprehensive stat list, just a a quick hit blog...

But when talking about the best player in college football why should we choose to ignore these statistics?

[the0rangecrush]

But when talking about the best player in college football why should we choose to ignore these statistics?

because the blog post is titled 10 Facts to know, not a dissertation on why each player should win the Heisman

[-Rod-]

Congratulations to Manziel for winning the Heisman and congratulations to Marqise Lee for being the best player in college football.

[Matymaddog]

because the blog post is titled 10 Facts to know, not a dissertation on why each player should win the Heisman

But why no link to these statistics that no one knew? Hell, I could write an article about 10 things you didn't know about the heisman winners and throw something about missed tackles in there and get away with it because this guy did and despite searching I can't find a single website, NCAA included that tracks the amount of tackles missed by the players. Nothing, notta, zilch. So how can I be sure it really exists? I can't even check it against other players missed tackles. I can't see what games the missed tackles were in so i can go back and confirm the accuracy of the data. That would be completely irresponsible of me to just buy into it despite there being zero support of the data just cause the letters espn are attached to it when the author that wrote the article isn't a notable journalist by any standards. I can't even find more than 2 articles by the guy on espn and his name is completely unclickable to read his bio. Outside of this article and one about Andrew Luck he pretty much doesn't exist. Kind of like the database he was using for these missed tackles.

[the0rangecrush]

But why no link to these statistics that no one knew? Hell, I could write an article about 10 things you didn't know about the heisman winners and throw something about missed tackles in there and get away with it because this guy did and despite searching I can't find a single website, NCAA included that tracks the amount of tackles missed by the players. Nothing, notta, zilch. So how can I be sure it really exists? I can't even check it against other players missed tackles. I can't see what games the missed tackles were in so i can go back and confirm the accuracy of the data. That would be completely irresponsible of me to just buy into it despite there being zero support of the data just cause the letters espn are attached to it when the author that wrote the article isn't a notable journalist by any standards. I can't even find more than 2 articles by the guy on espn and his name is completely unclickable to read his bio. Outside of this article and one about Andrew Luck he pretty much doesn't exist. Kind of like the database he was using for these missed tackles.

the data base is clearly denoted as the ESPN statistics page, just because you cant see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. This is simply a problem, because you have a vendetta against my argument for Te'O, because your argument for Manziel is faulty. You can't see a companies books, but when an accountant reviews them and releases pertinent information you take their word for it.

[Matymaddog]

the data base is clearly denoted as the ESPN statistics page, just because you cant see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. This is simply a problem, because you have a vendetta against my argument for Te'O, because your argument for Manziel is faulty. You can't see a companies books, but when an accountant reviews them and releases pertinent information you take their word for it.

No because there is literally no proof of a database. No proof whatsoever. Why would they hide that? Why keep it such a secret? It makes ZERO sense. And again, this guy is not a accredited journalist. He has literally only had 2 articles published by espn. He's not even a regular. I don't even know if he is legitimately employed by ESPN. They have zero bio on him like they do with all of their writers. That still doesn't factor in that Manti Te'O was very poor in comparison with tackles for a loss. The fact that a forced fumble takes more skill than having a ball bounce your direction. Not to mention all of the other stats that help paint a complete picture about a player that ARE accessible.

And actually you can see your companies books. It's a law. Balance Sheets and financial statements are now required by law. If it wasn't required then why would you pay anyone to just make up information if there was no way to check the validity? Financial Accounting is different from Managerial accounting in that there are actual government requirements imposed now. Auditing. When they check the validity and accuracy. There is absolutely no way to audit the data. There is no examples of this data being tracked for any other player. Nothing. You buy a no name writers article to support an argument for your favorite player. I don't buy it, and I'm not a fan of either player. I simply acknowledge that Manziel 100% deserved to win the Heisman. Just like RGIII and Andrew Luck both deserved to win the heisman. Never said Te'O didn't either. But he didn't win and neither did Andrew Luck and there are very valid reasons as to why and why not. I acknowledge those reasons, you just complain about how Manziel may have had more yards than cam but had 8 less TDs. So I'm just beating you at your own nit picking ways.

I argued this whole thread that Johnny Football deserved it. He did. Manti also deserved it. However you just keep telling one how wrong they are for disagreeing.

[broncos SB2010]

Not in the Heisman voters opinion. What Johnny Manziel did as a freshman was absolutely unbelievable.

What Te'o did happens every single year, he just happened to be on a good defense on an undefeated team. If Te'o played for Wisconsin nobody would be talking about him as a Heisman finalist.

But back on topic, Broncos fans need to realize that Osweiler is our future, that kid is going to be good.

doubt it...
neither is Manziel, imo.

[the0rangecrush]

No because there is literally no proof of a database. No proof whatsoever. Why would they hide that? Why keep it such a secret? It makes ZERO sense. And again, this guy is not a accredited journalist. He has literally only had 2 articles published by espn. He's not even a regular. I don't even know if he is legitimately employed by ESPN. They have zero bio on him like they do with all of their writers. That still doesn't factor in that Manti Te'O was very poor in comparison with tackles for a loss. The fact that a forced fumble takes more skill than having a ball bounce your direction. Not to mention all of the other stats that help paint a complete picture about a player that ARE accessible.

And actually you can see your companies books. It's a law. Balance Sheets and financial statements are now required by law. If it wasn't required then why would you pay anyone to just make up information if there was no way to check the validity? Financial Accounting is different from Managerial accounting in that there are actual government requirements imposed now. Auditing. When they check the validity and accuracy. There is absolutely no way to audit the data. There is no examples of this data being tracked for any other player. Nothing. You buy a no name writers article to support an argument for your favorite player. I don't buy it, and I'm not a fan of either player. I simply acknowledge that Manziel 100% deserved to win the Heisman. Just like RGIII and Andrew Luck both deserved to win the heisman. Never said Te'O didn't either. But he didn't win and neither did Andrew Luck and there are very valid reasons as to why and why not. I acknowledge those reasons, you just complain about how Manziel may have had more yards than cam but had 8 less TDs. So I'm just beating you at your own nit picking ways.

I argued this whole thread that Johnny Football deserved it. He did. Manti also deserved it. However you just keep telling one how wrong they are for disagreeing.

OK prove that he did missed more, you just have no leg to stand on and are trying to nitpick. Simply put, when ESPN places a piece of information on National TV in prime-time I take there opinion for it. Since it is against your position you discredit it.

Also I cant walk into a company and request their books, there is no law saying they have to give them to me. Also I'm not nitpicking about yards, yards mean nothing points do. I'll take 8 more TDs over 400 more yards every day of the week and twice on game day.

[canadiansbronco]

He is leading, that's like saying a co-captain isnt a captain. He is leading, whether you like it or not. They clearly state where the information comes from, so whether or not you question it is irrelevant. Just because there is a sheet of data does not ensure it's accurate, the fact that it is displayed and used by the biggest and arguably most reputable sports network should incline you to believe it's true.

Sorry but if you say about a player that he is leading the league he needs to actually be the only one with that number of sacks,picks ect.... If he is not he is a CO leader. Just like in in golf, if 2 guys are a -12 its says they are CO LEADERS on the tv. You cant say he is leading if 2 other guys have the same stat.

[the0rangecrush]

Sorry but if you say about a player that he is leading the league he needs to actually be the only one with that number of sacks,picks ect.... If he is not he is a CO leader. Just like in in golf, if 2 guys are a -12 its says they are CO LEADERS on the tv. You cant say he is leading if 2 other guys have the same stat.

He is still leading the field, its like saying a co-captain is not a captain.

[Matymaddog]

OK prove that he did missed more, you just have no leg to stand on and are trying to nitpick. Simply put, when ESPN places a piece of information on National TV in prime-time I take there opinion for it. Since it is against your position you discredit it.

Also I cant walk into a company and request their books, there is no law saying they have to give them to me. Also I'm not nitpicking about yards, yards mean nothing points do. I'll take 8 more TDs over 400 more yards every day of the week and twice on game day.

I can't prove that he didn't miss more. That's my problem. I have absolutely no reference point with that data. Unless you could find the data laid out including other players than I can't really discuss that aspect. If you would like to discuss his playmaking ability primarily being limited to interceptions this season (Where he had 0 in the 3 previous years) and in terms of dominating performance can be matched by others at a similar position. For example, Jarvis Jones was dominant. Jarvis Jones in my personal opinion is going to be one heck of a player at the Pro level. He had:
77 tackles (47 solo)
22.5 Tackles for a Loss for 117 yards (20 solo and 5 assisted)
[12.5 Sacks for 88 yards (12 solo, 1 assisted)]
1 interception
2 pass break ups
19 quarterback hurries
7 forced fumbles
2 fumble recoveries

On a team that went 11-2. He made a very significant impact at Georgia, I'd argue just as much as Te'O. Also had adversity he battled in life. Not much of a rah rah type leader but more of a quiet leader that does his leading by example. Really sets the tone for those guys out there. Never heard a bad thing about him off the field. Makes a significant impact on the game in multiple ways. Wasn't even part of the conversation for Heisman. He's comparable because he plays LB and has been a force in college. Te'O had guys on his level. What Manziel did was break a record, and his closest competitor with the type of play he had was Colin Klein the third place finisher. If we are going to rule out Jarvis Jones because his team lost 2 games, why make it into an offensive award when it really should just go to the best player on the winning team. Even if that player may or may not be the best player in college football. I personally don't think Te'O would be in the conversation had Notre Dame lost 2 games. I really don't. Does that mean he doesn't deserve to be? No. There is obviously some bias in Heisman voting but Manziel 100% deserved it. He did. I just don't know how you could argue against it.

[Matymaddog]

He is still leading the field, its like saying a co-captain is not a captain.

But a co-captain and captain is not statistically based or measured. That example is not applicable at all