Johnny Football

[Joshecalpoly]

no Oklahoma was undefeated while Florida lost one game (Ole Miss) going into the National champ game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_BCS_National_Championship_Game

http://www.ticketcity.com/bowl-game-tickets/bcs-champions.html

[nic.zeman24]

Thought it was Florida, but I guess they didnt win the computer ranking, but won the press and coaches poll (which is technically what tends to decide Heisman).

Still the fact of the matter remains its rarely the MVP of the best team, but the MVP all together, and its not that different from the NFL where AP might actually win MVP

no Oklahoma was undefeated while Florida lost one game (Ole Miss) going into the National champ game

[Joshecalpoly]

Oklahoma was ranked #1 in 2008 when Bradford received the trophy.

Thought it was Florida, but I guess they didnt win the computer ranking, but won the press and coaches poll (which is technically what tends to decide Heisman).

Still the fact of the matter remains its rarely the MVP of the best team, but the MVP all together, and its not that different from the NFL where AP might actually win MVP

[Matymaddog]

What I said:

RGIII 37 passing td's, 6 interceptions, 72.4 completion %, 189.47 QB rating, 699 rushing yards and 10 rushing tds, throw in his 1 catch of 15 yards he amassed, 5,007 yards and 47 touchdowns. He even punted 3 times for 99 yards lol. Ball had 1923 rushing yards and 33 rushing touchdowns, 2 passes for 57 yards and a touchdown, 24 catches for 306 yards and 6 touchdowns, 1 kick return for 15 yards. 2,301 yards and 40 touchdowns. He was a monster through and through. Both were

That's a difference of 7 touchdowns as well as 2706 yards. Pretty significant difference in yardage.

Damontre Moore is nasty. Nothing to take away from that guy but all around Johnny Manziel was the most vital player on that team this year. Maybe not the better pro prospect but biggest contributor for sure. Damontre Moore is gross though, but he plays on the opposite of the ball. Wilson and Ball took pressure off one another. Wilson since he could scramble as well as pass and Ball because he could catch, run, block and apparently could even pass a little. They were in the backfield together.

[The Big Willie]

Montee Ball was not the undisputed best player on Wisconsin. Russell Wilson arguably was

What I said:

If you think stats are how we should award heismans, then why did rg3 get it instead of montee ball???

And also, Manziel isn't the undisputed best player on his team either

[Matymaddog]

6 of the last 9 were the best player on the best team and one of those that wasn't was a team in the national title game, I'd say that the means it usually goes to the best player on the best team. . .

as far as your money comment goes, just cause you have money doesn't mean you know who to pay.

If you think stats are how we should award heismans, then why did rg3 get it instead of montee ball???

Montee Ball was not the undisputed best player on Wisconsin. Russell Wilson arguably was

[nic.zeman24]

2011 Baylor was not ranked #1
2008 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2007 Florida was not ranked #1
2003 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2002 USC was not ranked #1
2001 Nebraska was not ranked #1
2000 Florida State was not ranked #1
1999 Wisconsin was not ranked #1
1998 Texas was not ranked #1
1996 Florida was not ranked #1
1995 Ohio State was not ranked #1
1994 Colorado was not ranked #1

So thats 12 times in the last 20 years where that was not the case. Football is a team sport, it takes a team to win, otherwise the Skins with Norv or the Eagles now (the highest paid teams) would be winning everything. Sometimes the best players are on those teams that dont have the same synergy to be #1

Yet RG3 lost 3 games so I guess hes no good according to the Te'o obsessed fan, and he should go take the Heisman away from him and give it to Hightower.

Oklahoma was ranked #1 in 2008 when Bradford received the trophy.

[The Big Willie]

2011 Baylor was not ranked #1
2008 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2007 Florida was not ranked #1
2003 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2002 USC was not ranked #1
2001 Nebraska was not ranked #1
2000 Florida State was not ranked #1
1999 Wisconsin was not ranked #1
1998 Texas was not ranked #1
1996 Florida was not ranked #1
1995 Ohio State was not ranked #1
1994 Colorado was not ranked #1

So thats 12 times in the last 20 years where that was not the case. Football is a team sport, it takes a team to win, otherwise the Skins with Norv or the Eagles now (the highest paid teams) would be winning everything. Sometimes the best players are on those teams that dont have the same synergy to be #1

Yet RG3 lost 3 games so I guess hes no good according to the Te'o obsessed fan, and he should go take the Heisman away from him and give it to Hightower.

6 of the last 9 were the best player on the best team and one of those that wasn't was a team in the national title game, I'd say that the means it usually goes to the best player on the best team. . .

as far as your money comment goes, just cause you have money doesn't mean you know who to pay.

If you think stats are how we should award heismans, then why did rg3 get it instead of montee ball???

[Joshecalpoly]

You're right, historically the award has been given to the best player on the best team :thumb:

2011 Baylor was not ranked #1
2008 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2007 Florida was not ranked #1
2003 Oklahoma was not ranked #1
2002 USC was not ranked #1
2001 Nebraska was not ranked #1
2000 Florida State was not ranked #1
1999 Wisconsin was not ranked #1
1998 Texas was not ranked #1
1996 Florida was not ranked #1
1995 Ohio State was not ranked #1
1994 Colorado was not ranked #1

So thats 12 times in the last 20 years where that was not the case. Football is a team sport, it takes a team to win, otherwise the Skins with Norv or the Eagles now (the highest paid teams) would be winning everything. Sometimes the best players are on those teams that dont have the same synergy to be #1

Yet RG3 lost 3 games so I guess hes no good according to the Te'o obsessed fan, and he should go take the Heisman away from him and give it to Hightower.

[The Big Willie]

Defense does "plural" as in the entire D wins championships. They could give it to the leaders of the best D teams but thats not what the award historically has been about.

You're right, historically the award has been given to the best player on the best team :thumb:

[Joshecalpoly]

I thought defense wins championships. . .

Defense does "plural" as in the entire D wins championships. They could give it to the leaders of the best D teams but thats not what the award historically has been about.

[The Big Willie]

I thought defense wins championships. . .

[Joshecalpoly]

This is inaccurate,
1st: Stanford is the #6 team in the country and LSU #8, so it's harder to win against Stanford(who shut down elite offenses like USC and Oregon). Unless you want to use the argument that the SEC is better than everyone else, so it's more impressive which is asinine.

2nd: My feelings on the Broncos having a poor record, and getting Te'o had no connection. We were playing bad football, so I made the judgement based on that.

3rd: I said we should make a JJ type trade to get him, so this notion of selling 3 drafts is incorrect.

4th: The difference between Hightower and Te'o this year is, Te'o led the country in causing TO's. Te'o was second in the country in INTs. Te'o overcame tragedy throughout the season. Te'o displayed his high character both on and off the field. Alabama lost a game last year, and Te'o was the leader on an undefeated team. Other than having an elite D, the comparisons end there.

5th: Johnny broke records, but lost his team 2 games. The best player in the country shouldn't lose his teams games, you can compete with that it's not difficult.

I will repeat myself since I have to STATISTICALLY it is harder to win at LSU, for years they have had one of the highest home records in NCAA, infact in 3 years theyve only lost to Alabama. They also have a better ranked D then Stanford. LSU lost to Florida (ranked 4th) and Alabama (ranked 2nd), Stanford lost to an unranked Washington so yeah that says more there then anything.

Technically Phillip Thomas has 1 more INT then Te'o does, and if thats what were basing it on David Amerson should have won it last year, or Hosely or Moore the years before. Heck Matt O'Hanlon had about as many takeaways on a nearly as dominant D in 09. Why dont we award that, oh thats right because takeways tend to be based on a team effort, pressuring the QB tends to create most turnovers on all levels of football (something Te'o isnt asked to do that much). Granted the defender needs to read the coverage and box out the receiver but most of his picks come from passes thrown off because he is hit, so really its Prince Shembo who deserves that credit. Something like FF which Jarvis Jones has done, is an individual effort

I wont deny that he improved his D with his cerebral skills but its a team effort what Notre Dame accomplished more then anything, and if you want to give it to him because his gf died then why not give it to the players that come back from car accidents or recover from cancer.

[Matymaddog]

Te'o wasn't asked to rush the passer Jarvis was, that's the main difference in the stats, comparing a 3-4 rush LB and and an ILB is terrible. That's like comparing a DT and DE, because they both played D-line. You're ignoring roles and position, and looking at stats in a vacuum.

Losing your team 2 games does not deserve a Heisman, when a guy has led a team to an undefeated season, and has a great resume for player of the year. Against to conference opponents with winning record Manziel were 1,204 Pass Yds., 3 Pass TD, 5 Int. 437 Rush Yds., 4 TD, 2 Fum, 15 Sacks. That equates to a Heisman?

You think Suh was considered a Heisman candidate because he had DT like stats? No, Suh was a heisman candidate because he was dominant. He had the stats of a DT and a DE with 12 sacks of 20.5 tackles for a loss, 10 pass break ups, 19 qb hurries, 1 forced fumble, 3 blocked kicks, 1 interception and 85 tackles. I already pointed out the obvious discrepancies in stats. Interceptions and pass break ups and tackles versus sacks and hurries. Forced Fumbles could also be factored in as they are more likely when rushing the passer. It's about being dominant at their position. I could use other MLBs for comparison if you are really going to make a stink about it but I don't know why when we are discussing an award that encompasses all positions on the football field.

So now we have moved onto conference opponents with winning records, as if they play in equally competitive conferences. This is pointless, I am done. You have blind allegiance to Manti Te'O. You yourself admitted they probably won't win against Alabama. Texas A&M did and did so on the back of their quarterback. I believe Florida and LSU would also beat Notre Dame. It's called perspective and if you insist we should keep it when discussing positions (Even though it doesn't apply considering the award) then we should keep it in mind regarding opponents and conference. Te'O and Johnny Manziel both deserved the Heisman but there can only be one, and the experts who are counted on to vote decided 474 to 321 that Manziel should be the winner

[the0rangecrush]

That's like saying that you can't compare Andrew Luck to RGIII because they are different types of quarterbacks that play in different systems. Jarvis Jones plays OLB in a 3-4 but he still plays linebacker. His ability to do his job matches the ability of Manti Te'O to do his job. Why else would there be an award that encompasses all positions specifically that can be statistically measured in a thorough way (offensive linemen obviously have no shot). I mean really? Now you are going to say you can't compare two linebackers in terms of an award that compares all players of all positions? C'mon dude, really? You can't be headed down this path. Jarvis Jones was dominant, a leader, a high character guy, endured hardships, and played on a winning team. His only crime is he lost 2 games. And considering he played a position in which he is expected to have more hurries and sacks but also expected to have less pass deflections, interceptions and tackles. When it comes to tackles for a loss exempting sacks you can typically see MLBs in 4-3's as well a Sam and Will matching that of 3-4 personel.

Jarvis Jones has 6 less interceptions than Manti. 7 more forced fumbles than Te'O. The same exact number of fumble recoveries. 2 less pass break ups, 15 more quarterback hurries, 17 more tackles for a loss (11 more sacks), 26 less total tackles (5 less solo tackles)


As for Jordan Lynch, of course he is a name that could and should have been in the conversation given his accomplishments but when you start to break it down he wasn't as accurate for starters. Which isn't really too significant here as the real significance is in not playing anyone other than kent st. (78th in total yardage allowed by opponents). Hence it not being him. It's pretty much the classic Boise St. argument. "Give them a National Championship spot!" "Yea but they play no one"

I just don't know why it's hard to admit he deserved it. Like, does your passion for Manti Te'O being your favorite college player keep you from just admitting the kid deserved it just as much as Te'O? I mean obviously you preferred Te'O win but c'mon he earned it. They both did.

Te'o wasn't asked to rush the passer Jarvis was, that's the main difference in the stats, comparing a 3-4 rush LB and and an ILB is terrible. That's like comparing a DT and DE, because they both played D-line. You're ignoring roles and position, and looking at stats in a vacuum.

Losing your team 2 games does not deserve a Heisman, when a guy has led a team to an undefeated season, and has a great resume for player of the year. Against to conference opponents with winning record Manziel were 1,204 Pass Yds., 3 Pass TD, 5 Int. 437 Rush Yds., 4 TD, 2 Fum, 15 Sacks. That equates to a Heisman?