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  • Door to Herbert now potentially open

    With the Giants winning, Oakland now has the #1 overall pick. Now, they may not be willing to deal such a pick to a division rival, but at this point I think Chucky only cares about stockpiling assets. Maybe Gruden has eyes for Herbert as well? If so, Carr would become available. Or perhaps the Raiders simply go BPA and grab a defensive player. Even so, the 49ers now have the 2nd overall pick. Elway and Lynch are friends, so there's a potential deal there. The Wentz trade is a good indicator of what it might cost to move from a top 10 pick into the top 2.
    Last edited by gerontion; 11-13-2018, 02:36 AM.

  • #2
    What the Raiders want, they will get. They have positioned themselves perfectly to make any move they want to try and get any player they want. If Herbert does indeed declare, and the Raiders are sitting in the top slot come April, I think they look to move on from Carr and go with Herbert. They would be able to gather even more high picks, dump an overpaid player, and get their quarterback of the future.

    If however the Raiders decide to keep Carr and sell the top pick off instead, and Herbert has declared, you would assume the players for that move would be Jacksonville, Denver, New York, Tampa, and Miami, all teams which will be picking in the top 10. It would then come down to who can offer the best package, who is the most interested, and if the deal was going to be made within the division, I think we would have to give up even more then these other teams. I personally really like Herbert, but if it meant a deal like the Eagles made to get Wentz, I would be cautious. It would take something like a top 10 pick in 2019, a 3rd round pick in 2019, a 4th round pick in 2019, a 1st round pick in 2020, and a 2nd round pick in 2020, that is a huge commitment.

    Let's just hope we lose out, which would include our game against the Raiders, and then they hopefully can sneak a game or 2 out, and we can just get that top pick and select Herbert if he does comes out, skip all the what if's and just take care of business ourselves by losing the rest of the way. The good news is, with Joseph in charge and this mediocre roster, it could most definitely happen, fingers crossed.

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    • #3
      I don't know if any of the QBs in this draft are worth taking high.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
        What the Raiders want, they will get. They have positioned themselves perfectly to make any move they want to try and get any player they want. If Herbert does indeed declare, and the Raiders are sitting in the top slot come April, I think they look to move on from Carr and go with Herbert. They would be able to gather even more high picks, dump an overpaid player, and get their quarterback of the future.

        If however the Raiders decide to keep Carr and sell the top pick off instead, and Herbert has declared, you would assume the players for that move would be Jacksonville, Denver, New York, Tampa, and Miami, all teams which will be picking in the top 10. It would then come down to who can offer the best package, who is the most interested, and if the deal was going to be made within the division, I think we would have to give up even more then these other teams. I personally really like Herbert, but if it meant a deal like the Eagles made to get Wentz, I would be cautious. It would take something like a top 10 pick in 2019, a 3rd round pick in 2019, a 4th round pick in 2019, a 1st round pick in 2020, and a 2nd round pick in 2020, that is a huge commitment.

        Let's just hope we lose out, which would include our game against the Raiders, and then they hopefully can sneak a game or 2 out, and we can just get that top pick and select Herbert if he does comes out, skip all the what if's and just take care of business ourselves by losing the rest of the way. The good news is, with Joseph in charge and this mediocre roster, it could most definitely happen, fingers crossed.
        Miami already has 5 wins. The teams looking to move up in that scenario would be Jax, Den, TB, and the Giants. But who is to say Oakland wont take Herbert himself and cut Carr, there's an out in his contract. Word is Herbert make not even come out.

        I'm not all that impressed with Herbert and wouldnt do that, i'd keep building up the roster and get one of the better QB's in 2020. Not like Denver projects to be very good next year anyway.

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        • #5
          Yeah honestly it looks like herbert could use another year at oregon. Unless its daniel jones to me the best would be to build your team and fill some holes and get everything set.
          Glen Haven Fire

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          • #6
            Yeah I think the best play would be too stay put and if someone is there at quarterback you take them. People keep complaining about this years quarterback class and looking forward to the next one, and yes, at this point next years looks a lot better, but the great quarterback class is a unicorn that is always said to be next year, it's been happening for years.

            I remember the year Luck and Griffin went 1st and 2nd overall, we were looking for a quarterback to develop and everyone kept saying we need to wait until next year because that quarterback class looked much better, at least beyond these 2 guys we didn't have a shot at, and at the time it did. But that class of Tyler Bray, Landry Jones, EJ Emmanuel, Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Mike Glennon, and Tyler Wilson turned into a really horrible quarterback class. If we have a shot at a guy this year, especially Herbert, you take it, because you never know what could happen down the road.

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            • #7
              The argument for waiting for the "next quarterback class" also reminds me of the top 5-7 in 2011 when we picked Von Miller. All the talk was that it was a bad year to have a top 5-7 pick because the top end of that draft was weak, and 2012 was going to be the year to have that top pick. However that 2011 top 7 will probably go down as one of the best in the 21st century, and outside of Andrew Luck in 2012, that top 7 can't compete at any spot with the 2011 top 7 picks, the grass is ALWAYS greener.

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              • #8
                I dont want any part of Carr. Honestly, we should consider trading down this year. As of now there is no QB worth a top 10 pick which we will have. If we trade down we can get more assets for next year and hopefully have the chips to move up and get the QB we want if we feel they are there.

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                • #9
                  Its not "waiting" though its building your team. It also has to do with scouting. It seems like a lot of the past scouting showed that we drafted more on potential and athleticism than anything else. This past draft, they seemed much better at identifying better overall players but they can get better (ala drafting david williams instead of lindsey and almost losing out).

                  Like i said, if a good option comes along that fits what you are looking for sure jump on it. But dont make a desperation move just to make a move. It almost seems like thats the case with paxton. The loved the athleticism and potential but didnt pay much attention to his study and practice habits or that he came from a spread shotgun 8 play offense (per musgrave).

                  Jones and hebert stay in and you have finley lock and grier. Finley is the most experienced but doesnt have a strong arm according to most scouting reports ive seen.

                  I believe that any qb drafted this year will need time to develop which is fine, we have keenum who can start next year and be benched later in season when said qb is up to speed. Or we can draft day 1 starters in at least 2 or 3 rounds and contributors from day 1 with the rest and go after tua who can step in and contribute day 1 in 2020.

                  Limburg, that qb draft class was projected to be limited at best. I specifically remember a few people saying that someone would reach on emmanual. If hebert, jones, haskins for example all stay in then youd have quite the class in 2020
                  Glen Haven Fire

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                    The argument for waiting for the "next quarterback class" also reminds me of the top 5-7 in 2011 when we picked Von Miller. All the talk was that it was a bad year to have a top 5-7 pick because the top end of that draft was weak, and 2012 was going to be the year to have that top pick. However that 2011 top 7 will probably go down as one of the best in the 21st century, and outside of Andrew Luck in 2012, that top 7 can't compete at any spot with the 2011 top 7 picks, the grass is ALWAYS greener.
                    I agree.

                    Remember when Wentz and Goff were considered a weak QB class?

                    Or Mariota and Winston were slam dunk home runs?

                    Or Tubisky was just the best of a terrible trio including Mahomes and Watson?

                    Yeah. People don't even know why they're parroting what they're saying. They're just unwilling to take their own look into the QB class because they heard from some guy in the summer that it's a bad class.

                    It's a pretty solid class, with 3+ QBs looking to be first rounders. The Broncos will most likely take a QB early this draft, and it would not be a surprise to see it happen in the top 10.

                    Grier, Jones, Herbert in that order for me.

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                    • #11
                      The whole "wait till next year" thing never makes sense to me. What happens if the QBs people want have poor seasons, get injured, or just decide not to enter the 2020 draft? Then are you going to wait until 2021? What happens if Denver is a little better next year and other teams are a little worse?

                      I understand not taking a QB this year if none fall into the value you put on them, or you're just not high on them. But I don't understand ignoring a QB class this year because "2020 will be way better" when there are so many things that could happen between 2019 and 2020 and it may turn out not good for you just because you decide to wait.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                        I don't know if any of the QBs in this draft are worth taking high.
                        I disagree, Jones will be a stud and worth every penny

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                          The whole "wait till next year" thing never makes sense to me. What happens if the QBs people want have poor seasons, get injured, or just decide not to enter the 2020 draft? Then are you going to wait until 2021? What happens if Denver is a little better next year and other teams are a little worse?

                          I understand not taking a QB this year if none fall into the value you put on them, or you're just not high on them. But I don't understand ignoring a QB class this year because "2020 will be way better" when there are so many things that could happen between 2019 and 2020 and it may turn out not good for you just because you decide to wait.
                          Well said.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by armedequation View Post
                            Its not "waiting" though its building your team. It also has to do with scouting. It seems like a lot of the past scouting showed that we drafted more on potential and athleticism than anything else. This past draft, they seemed much better at identifying better overall players but they can get better (ala drafting david williams instead of lindsey and almost losing out).

                            Like i said, if a good option comes along that fits what you are looking for sure jump on it. But dont make a desperation move just to make a move. It almost seems like thats the case with paxton. The loved the athleticism and potential but didnt pay much attention to his study and practice habits or that he came from a spread shotgun 8 play offense (per musgrave).

                            Jones and hebert stay in and you have finley lock and grier. Finley is the most experienced but doesnt have a strong arm according to most scouting reports ive seen.

                            I believe that any qb drafted this year will need time to develop which is fine, we have keenum who can start next year and be benched later in season when said qb is up to speed. Or we can draft day 1 starters in at least 2 or 3 rounds and contributors from day 1 with the rest and go after tua who can step in and contribute day 1 in 2020.

                            Limburg, that qb draft class was projected to be limited at best. I specifically remember a few people saying that someone would reach on emmanual. If hebert, jones, haskins for example all stay in then youd have quite the class in 2020
                            I agree with you 100%. I am not in the crowd of, "you have too draft a quarterback regardless", that is beyond stupid in my opinion. I also wouldn't make a move to go and get anyone in this draft class, but I believe that if Herbert is there, you take him, I believe he will be a great quarterback. I have just seen this story before when it comes to the next next quarterback class, and if I am Elway and I like a guy who is on the board, I am not passing in the hope a year down the track you can maybe be in a position to draft your guy.

                            In saying that though, if you don't love a quarterback, and you want to build other areas of your team, and the next year you find yourself in position, or you move into a position to go and get your guy, if the plan comes together, than well done. It just such a big risk to play that game when so many things can change in a year, and the odds of you getting into the exact position you want to be in to get your guy, they are slim, I don't like potentially wasting another season on sub par quarterback play when you could be developing a guy you were in position to draft, just in the hope that next year something better falls into your lap.

                            And I remember that differently. I can remember people being fascinated with that upcoming class over a year in advance. Matt Barkley, Landry Jones, Tyler Bray, Geno Smith, and Tyler Wilson were being talked about as 1st round picks before Andrew Luck was even in the NFL. Emmanuel was a late riser who climbed up the draft board in the pre-draft process after all of these other guys were major disappointments during their finals years at college, Emmanuel had no first round hype leading into the season. People forget, Matt Barkley at one point was considered a lock to be a franchise quarterback.

                            Also Ryan Finley would be what is considered "a big armed" quarterback, I think that information is incorrect. Finley can make all the throws, has tremendous zip on the football, and it looks effortless to him.

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                            • #15
                              Teams just should not force the QB pick. They have to identify the right QB for them and go get him. With the final say over the 90-man offseason roster, free agency and the draft, John Lynch had a bad start as the 49ers GM when he passed on Trubisky, Mahomes and Watson to trade down and take Solomon Thomas, who has only 4.0 career sacks. That decision set the 49ers back in a big way. Instead of having a good young QB under a rookie contract, the 49ers gave Garoppolo a 5-year, $137.5 million contract. The same goes for the Browns when they passed on Carson Wentz [2016] and Deshaun Watson [2017], though their perennial losing keeps giving them the first picks and they finally decided identified Baker Mayfield as their QB. Don't force the pick, but you have to be able to identify the QB when the situation presents itself. And don't be afraid to let him play early.
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