Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What do you give up

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    If he falls outside top 10 I say trade up a few spots and grab him

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
      That isn't true at all. There are a multitude of examples of coaches, especially position coaches who skate by job to job from location to location strictly due to familiarity and friendship. Look at this past off-season here, wasn't the hang up with Kubiak returning because he wanted to bring on position coaches he liked, guys he was comfortable with, but the organisation wasn't having it, due to recent failures amongst those position groups under said position coaches ?

      Look at our quarterback coach, who is he ? The guy has exactly zero resume at all as a player or as a coach, yet we are allowing him to mould our most valuable asset going into the future ? Dumb. T.C McCartney did not start one game as quarterback at LSU, he was a quality control guy on a couple of staffs over the last 5 years, and is now a quarterback coach. He might have a coaches temperament based on his upbringing and such, but he doesn't have the knowledge, skills, or even minor league success to draw on to pass onto a young quarterback.

      I remember in 2011 everyone was talking about Tyke Tolbert, our recievers coach at the time questioning who he had ever developed at the NFL level. He had been in the position in a bunch of places around the league, but hadn't really developed anyone. This was after 2011 when the Tebow crazies constantly question Thomas and Deckers hands when they were putting down Tebow passes. Yet, a year later Manning is here, we have Pro-Bowl recievers, and they continue to develop under Tolbert. Was Tolbert all of a sudden a good coach ? Or did we have good guys who Manning elevated ?
      You can gain knowledge through other things then playing the game. For example I never played football but I love studying the strategy behind it. The way a defense attacks an offense I find very interesting. He does at least have the family name he is the son of cu coach Bill McCartney and he may have the knowledge being a coaches son and at least involved in the sport a bit. Plus it sounds alot like rich doing most of the qb mentoring and McCartney is learning the job
      sigpic
      oakland raders gm
      latavis murray trade bait

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
        Nothing. Don’t overreact to the Vrbo Citrus Bowl. His opening play TD was against a freshman cornerback with no help from a S. Jeudy is a highly talented player but there are great receivers to draft in this class.
        The guy as 2,500 yards and 24 touchdowns in the past two years and won the Belitnikoff.
        Fightin' Texas Aggie c/o '16

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
          You can gain knowledge through other things then playing the game. For example I never played football but I love studying the strategy behind it. The way a defense attacks an offense I find very interesting. He does at least have the family name he is the son of cu coach Bill McCartney and he may have the knowledge being a coaches son and at least involved in the sport a bit. Plus it sounds alot like rich doing most of the qb mentoring and McCartney is learning the job
          I'll try to compare it to being a teacher. I was a student right, I watched teachers operate every day for 13 years of schooling, then 4 more years in college. If someone said to me before I was trained as a teacher, can you mentor a teacher because you have closely observed them for 17 years, I could of done it. But, do you think now having done the job for several years, if someone needed to be mentored, I could do a far better job due to the experience I have ? I think so.

          Position coaches need that real life experience to draw on. A position coach like every role inside a football team requires a different skill set. These coaches work directly with the players, training them on how to improve in a specific role, you need experience to draw on that. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of football, others might disagree, but I put a lot of time into trying to understand the sport. But, I have never played the cornerback position, if someone said how do you improve, I would probably offer some basic level opinions, but I don't have the detailed knowledge to break down certain types of footwork, leverages to play specific routes, etc.

          I think you can be an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator, a passing game coordinator, like our receivers coach was, head coach, etc. without any previous success as a player. But a position coach needs it, and our quarterback coach not only doesn't have it, but he also has zero resume as well. I don't understand surrounding your blue chip investment (Lock) with unqualified guys, but that is just me.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by BroncoooJohnson View Post
            The guy as 2,500 yards and 24 touchdowns in the past two years and won the Belitnikoff.
            No question Jeudy is a talented receiver and a good route runner for his experience. Look at his game logs and most importantly the schools Alabama played over those two years. There are a lot of talented receivers in this draft - no need to spend more draft picks to move up.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
              I'll try to compare it to being a teacher. I was a student right, I watched teachers operate every day for 13 years of schooling, then 4 more years in college. If someone said to me before I was trained as a teacher, can you mentor a teacher because you have closely observed them for 17 years, I could of done it. But, do you think now having done the job for several years, if someone needed to be mentored, I could do a far better job due to the experience I have ? I think so.

              Position coaches need that real life experience to draw on. A position coach like every role inside a football team requires a different skill set. These coaches work directly with the players, training them on how to improve in a specific role, you need experience to draw on that. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of football, others might disagree, but I put a lot of time into trying to understand the sport. But, I have never played the cornerback position, if someone said how do you improve, I would probably offer some basic level opinions, but I don't have the detailed knowledge to break down certain types of footwork, leverages to play specific routes, etc.

              I think you can be an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator, a passing game coordinator, like our receivers coach was, head coach, etc. without any previous success as a player. But a position coach needs it, and our quarterback coach not only doesn't have it, but he also has zero resume as well. I don't understand surrounding your blue chip investment (Lock) with unqualified guys, but that is just me.
              I understand what you are trying to say with your example but it is apples and oranges. As a student you were not being trained to teach other students. Gaining knowledge in a subject or discipline does not equate to learning the skill of imparting understanding: preparing curriculum, lesson plans, motivation, and on, and on.

              This doesn't mean McCartney is or is not qualified but his limited NFL experience has a connection to Scangarello in SF. Obviously the connection was strong enough for Scangs to bring him with him to Denver.

              Though his resume is lean there isn't anything to suggest he's done a reasonable job or not so I guess only Scangs and Fangio can really only say.

              As for reaching on a WR, no. If bpa at 15 is a receiver than maybe but with the need for quality depth I think we can get great value trading back - we already have something like six picks in the top 100 and could easily add to that and really make a splash this draft.
              Last edited by Rastic; 01-02-2020, 08:30 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Move up for an OT!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  That isn't true at all. There are a multitude of examples of coaches, especially position coaches who skate by job to job from location to location strictly due to familiarity and friendship. Look at this past off-season here, wasn't the hang up with Kubiak returning because he wanted to bring on position coaches he liked, guys he was comfortable with, but the organisation wasn't having it, due to recent failures amongst those position groups under said position coaches ?

                  Look at our quarterback coach, who is he ? The guy has exactly zero resume at all as a player or as a coach, yet we are allowing him to mould our most valuable asset going into the future ? Dumb. T.C McCartney did not start one game as quarterback at LSU, he was a quality control guy on a couple of staffs over the last 5 years, and is now a quarterback coach. He might have a coaches temperament based on his upbringing and such, but he doesn't have the knowledge, skills, or even minor league success to draw on to pass onto a young quarterback.

                  I remember in 2011 everyone was talking about Tyke Tolbert, our recievers coach at the time questioning who he had ever developed at the NFL level. He had been in the position in a bunch of places around the league, but hadn't really developed anyone. This was after 2011 when the Tebow crazies constantly question Thomas and Deckers hands when they were putting down Tebow passes. Yet, a year later Manning is here, we have Pro-Bowl recievers, and they continue to develop under Tolbert. Was Tolbert all of a sudden a good coach ? Or did we have good guys who Manning elevated ?
                  Based on that rationale Bill Belichick should have never been given an opportunity to coach in the NFL.

                  Bill Walsh should have never been given his first OC job.

                  Kyle Shanahan certainly should have never been given a shot as an OC, since he only got the job because of who his dad was. But a borderline player in college, not much of a coaching resume.

                  What business did Sean McVay have being the OC in Washington? Have a look at his resume before that. And then look at his resume prior to becoming an HC.

                  I think the way you're judging things is ridiculous. And if you go through a long list of current and former NFL coaches (greats even) you'll find that many don't fit the qualifications you think a position coach should have. Never mind that by function the OC is always the true QB coach because he has to talk to the QB between just about every rep in practice.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                    I'll try to compare it to being a teacher. I was a student right, I watched teachers operate every day for 13 years of schooling, then 4 more years in college. If someone said to me before I was trained as a teacher, can you mentor a teacher because you have closely observed them for 17 years, I could of done it. But, do you think now having done the job for several years, if someone needed to be mentored, I could do a far better job due to the experience I have ? I think so.

                    Position coaches need that real life experience to draw on. A position coach like every role inside a football team requires a different skill set. These coaches work directly with the players, training them on how to improve in a specific role, you need experience to draw on that. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of football, others might disagree, but I put a lot of time into trying to understand the sport. But, I have never played the cornerback position, if someone said how do you improve, I would probably offer some basic level opinions, but I don't have the detailed knowledge to break down certain types of footwork, leverages to play specific routes, etc.

                    I think you can be an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator, a passing game coordinator, like our receivers coach was, head coach, etc. without any previous success as a player. But a position coach needs it, and our quarterback coach not only doesn't have it, but he also has zero resume as well. I don't understand surrounding your blue chip investment (Lock) with unqualified guys, but that is just me.
                    You do understand that "Quality Control Coaches" are basically assistant position coaches with a different title because they also have to break down film and lead scout right? And you do understand that those QC coaches end up working constantly under and learning from the position coaches that have that experience.

                    If what you said were correct than the best position coaches would be former players...something which is often not true. Just because a player can do it, doesn't mean they can coach it. Wayne Gretzky, Patrick Roy and Magic Johnson were amongst the greatest to ever play their sports, and all were bad coaches. The reason cited by Gretzky and Johnson, they couldn't understand why their players couldn't see and do the things that they were able to do.

                    And if you were to go through the list of all of the various coaches in the NFL, you'd find there's probably a greater number of coaches who have never played a down in the NFL than guys who have.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                      I understand what you are trying to say with your example but it is apples and oranges. As a student you were not being trained to teach other students. Gaining knowledge in a subject or discipline does not equate to learning the skill of imparting understanding: preparing curriculum, lesson plans, motivation, and on, and on.

                      This doesn't mean McCartney is or is not qualified but his limited NFL experience has a connection to Scangarello in SF. Obviously the connection was strong enough for Scangs to bring him with him to Denver.

                      Though his resume is lean there isn't anything to suggest he's done a reasonable job or not so I guess only Scangs and Fangio can really only say.

                      As for reaching on a WR, no. If bpa at 15 is a receiver than maybe but with the need for quality depth I think we can get great value trading back - we already have something like six picks in the top 100 and could easily add to that and really make a splash this draft.
                      As a student teacher that is exactly what is happening, you are being trained to be a teacher. And, over those 4 years despite some placements here and there, my experience level did not adequately prepare me to give advice to the next person, like my experience level would now. I agree, in fact I think teaching is very comparable to coaching, and in football, both knowledge base and ability to teach it are equally important, more so than teaching.

                      This alone doesn't mean McCartney is not qualified, but looking deeper into his resume, he is not qualified, he is a guy who has been around Scrangerello and gotten the job. This can be sugar coated all you like to say maybe he is qualified, "we don't know", but imagine being Joe Flacco, and NFL championship winning quarterback, sitting in a room listening to this guy try to tell him how to be a better quarterback, I guarantee a part of all those guys sit there with the thought in the back of their heads, "how would you know".

                      On the topic of Scrangerello, it is fair to question how qualified he was for the position in the first place also. The man has no high level experience calling offensive games of football, and I would be willing to bet that without his attachment to Kyle Shanahan, he isn't an NFL offensive coordinator right now with the Denver Broncos. I also think based on what he produced this year, the lack of resume of Scrangerello was on full display as he looked out of his depth.

                      Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                      Based on that rationale Bill Belichick should have never been given an opportunity to coach in the NFL.

                      Bill Walsh should have never been given his first OC job.

                      Kyle Shanahan certainly should have never been given a shot as an OC, since he only got the job because of who his dad was. But a borderline player in college, not much of a coaching resume.

                      What business did Sean McVay have being the OC in Washington? Have a look at his resume before that. And then look at his resume prior to becoming an HC.

                      I think the way you're judging things is ridiculous. And if you go through a long list of current and former NFL coaches (greats even) you'll find that many don't fit the qualifications you think a position coach should have. Never mind that by function the OC is always the true QB coach because he has to talk to the QB between just about every rep in practice.

                      You do understand that "Quality Control Coaches" are basically assistant position coaches with a different title because they also have to break down film and lead scout right? And you do understand that those QC coaches end up working constantly under and learning from the position coaches that have that experience.

                      If what you said were correct than the best position coaches would be former players...something which is often not true. Just because a player can do it, doesn't mean they can coach it. Wayne Gretzky, Patrick Roy and Magic Johnson were amongst the greatest to ever play their sports, and all were bad coaches. The reason cited by Gretzky and Johnson, they couldn't understand why their players couldn't see and do the things that they were able to do.

                      And if you were to go through the list of all of the various coaches in the NFL, you'd find there's probably a greater number of coaches who have never played a down in the NFL than guys who have.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._League_staffs
                      At no point did I say to be a good coach you need to be a former NFL player, or need to be elite level college talent, that obviously isn't true. What I said was that I believe in order to be a good position coach, which I believe is a vastly different skill set to being a coordinator, you need to have some experience to lean on. Like my example above, imagine being Joe Flacco, in a meeting room, getting critiqued by a guy who didn't start a single college game, I know what I would be thinking if I was in that position.

                      And yes Butler, I do understand the role of quality control coaches, thank you for that, appreciate it. But, I do not think that a guy who spent a couple years as an assistant to a position coach who accomplished nothing, with little experience in a role himself is qualified to be mentoring a guy who the Broncos are developing, with the hope to become great at the most important position in sports. I do understand what you are saying though, that you don't have to be a great player to be a good coach as it is two different things, but I do believe that to be qualified to mentor, you have to have some experience practising what you preach.

                      Now, obviously these coaches all start somewhere, there are exceptions, and they have to climb going through the role of a position coach. But, the reason I am so critical of the hire of McCartney is because I also don't believe Scrangerello was qualified, his resume is even more questionable. The reason I am harping on this is because when you have these two guys together, it makes the position coaches lack of experience even more of an issue in my opinion. You mention being an assistant to the position coach, Scrangerello, what has he accomplished in the NFL ? So you have a guy learning from a guy for years who isn't qualified in my opinion for his new role either. I just don't think it's a recipe for success when you have a guy in Lock who has hope to potentially become that guy.

                      Also the position coach hiring carousal is all a game of who has the least bit of familiarity with who, who is friends with who, and that is why guys often move around from place to place so much. Coaches obviously like to bring in their own guys, so it's hard to even know who is good at their role as a position coach or not, really hard to know actually. But what I do know, Scrangerello had no real experience as a play-caller and it showed, and he hadn't developed anyone either while he was teaching our current quarterback coach. Unless the few mediocre performances by Mullen were why Scrangerello was hired ?
                      Last edited by johnlimburg; 01-02-2020, 11:30 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                        I'll try to compare it to being a teacher. I was a student right, I watched teachers operate every day for 13 years of schooling, then 4 more years in college. If someone said to me before I was trained as a teacher, can you mentor a teacher because you have closely observed them for 17 years, I could of done it. But, do you think now having done the job for several years, if someone needed to be mentored, I could do a far better job due to the experience I have ? I think so.

                        Position coaches need that real life experience to draw on. A position coach like every role inside a football team requires a different skill set. These coaches work directly with the players, training them on how to improve in a specific role, you need experience to draw on that. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of football, others might disagree, but I put a lot of time into trying to understand the sport. But, I have never played the cornerback position, if someone said how do you improve, I would probably offer some basic level opinions, but I don't have the detailed knowledge to break down certain types of footwork, leverages to play specific routes, etc.

                        I think you can be an offensive coordinator, a defensive coordinator, a passing game coordinator, like our receivers coach was, head coach, etc. without any previous success as a player. But a position coach needs it, and our quarterback coach not only doesn't have it, but he also has zero resume as well. I don't understand surrounding your blue chip investment (Lock) with unqualified guys, but that is just me.
                        I don't know teaching has always come naturally and coaches should have had at least high school coaching where as a dc you have to coach about anything. I doubt he has no experience at all.
                        sigpic
                        oakland raders gm
                        latavis murray trade bait

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
                          I don't know teaching has always come naturally and coaches should have had at least high school coaching where as a dc you have to coach about anything. I doubt he has no experience at all.
                          Doubt who has no experience at all ? Scrangerello ? He has some lower level college experience as an offensive coordinator, but he hasn't gotten any experience at a successful college program calling plays, he hadn't called games in the NFL before this year, and I don't see any amazing development stories from him as a position coach to warrant the promotion to offensive coordinator. I also think this was clearly backed up this year with the product he put on the field. But hey, he was working under Shanahan, so say a prayer and hope I guess. Kind of like hoping Vance, Mr. Unqualified getting the head coaching job here.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                            Doubt who has no experience at all ? Scrangerello ? He has some lower level college experience as an offensive coordinator, but he hasn't gotten any experience at a successful college program calling plays, he hadn't called games in the NFL before this year, and I don't see any amazing development stories from him as a position coach to warrant the promotion to offensive coordinator. I also think this was clearly backed up this year with the product he put on the field. But hey, he was working under Shanahan, so say a prayer and hope I guess. Kind of like hoping Vance, Mr. Unqualified getting the head coaching job here.
                            He has coached nfl qbs in college. Alot of them where back ups in the NFL but good college qbs. He also was the one behind the Nick Mullens pick in sf which looks to be at least a good back up for them. I don't know I feel you are understating him a little and he probably is in the nfl with out Shanahan now is he an oc who knows. He still has alot of improvement to get and was over his head year 1. Year 2 better be better or we will be in the market for a new OC maybe joe Brady from lsu
                            sigpic
                            oakland raders gm
                            latavis murray trade bait

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
                              He has coached nfl qbs in college. Alot of them where back ups in the NFL but good college qbs. He also was the one behind the Nick Mullens pick in sf which looks to be at least a good back up for them. I don't know I feel you are understating him a little and he probably is in the nfl with out Shanahan now is he an oc who knows. He still has alot of improvement to get and was over his head year 1. Year 2 better be better or we will be in the market for a new OC maybe joe Brady from lsu
                              Who ? And Nick Mullens got Scrangerello the job ? I hope not. I think it was more the Shanahan connection and hope that he could bring some of that energy to Denver.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                                Who ? And Nick Mullens got Scrangerello the job ? I hope not. I think it was more the Shanahan connection and hope that he could bring some of that energy to Denver.
                                JT Daniels is all I know off the top of my head. But Scrangerello was a big part in the niners drafting Mullins. He liked Mullins and Mullins is gonna be interesting to watch he impressed when he was forced into action as a rookie. Scrangerello was a big reason why Mullins is in san fran.

                                It takes time to learn things like being an nfl hc or oc. We will see if he improves this year. If not I hope we try to contact Joe Brady.
                                sigpic
                                oakland raders gm
                                latavis murray trade bait

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X