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DenverPost Suggests We move Up to Grab Mike Willams

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    I place the red zone issues on play calling. Shanahan always seems to call an offtackle play or a bootleg. Teams are ready for that. ....

    But, I won't lay it all on Mike, Plummer has to make good decisions when he's allowed to pass.
    two points that I have been saying also:

    1. PlumBer has a mental meltdown far too often and I am counting on more of the same from him - his improvements will come not with honing his personal experience, but by limiting and grooming by the coaching staff regarding play calling... I think his intelligence and "productive" creativity is limited (unlike left handed throws). I am curious as to how well he scored on the Wonderlic....

    2. This above scenario leds me to believe that the above limitations and the staff's confidence in their O'Line to pound it out for positive yards when the D is crowding the box (esp. in the red zone, but in any short yardage situation) infers their lack thereof. Whereas they love to pull and move the linemen, tete a tete North-South smash mouth football is generally avoided as it is their well known weakness. This stands out when the chips are on the table in the Red Zone and the D co-ordinators know it that's why they put just enough bodies in the box take it away and watch for plays going outside as the focus and the Broncos have fell in line becasue they don't think they can pound it out up the middle.

    I realize it might be OK to have PlumBer do sneaks, as there is little to no fear of damage to his noggin or his IQ if he gets smacked around but I still don't think it's a wise thing to suggest this as a regular play.
    It is my opinion that we need to beef up the O'line with players that can move the line a yard forward even when lightly outmanned - thus we need someone like a Baas, or Brown.
    Last edited by Road_Apples; 03-11-2005, 07:54 AM.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Black59Razor
      Can't you people read?

      This was a column, not an article from a beat writer. Mark Kizla was giving you his
      OPINION, as he is the only major Denver newspaper writer to figure out Shanny is a clown. He was just basically saying what the Broncos have done this offseason amounts to a pile of crap, and that a bold move, like moving up to get Williams, would be refreshing to see, since the Broncos moves, thus far have been stale and unimaginative.


      Mike Wiliams is a lock for the top seven picks, and will not last past Minnesota.
      Razor, I thought you were going to ease up on the Shanahan insults and focus more on the football.

      Why not chime in with what you think the parameters of such a trade might be and whether or not it would be a good idea.

      Some have suggested that trading our first rounder plus Pryce plus two more first day picks (this year's or next's) would be worth it.
      "You can't take the sky from me..."
      ------
      "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Ravage!!!
        because he sees, despite the fact that Newsome has done an incredible job of putting talent on the team, his Billick can't get it done. He's envious of Shanahan, and always has been.
        Yep Billick the "offensive genius" that he is has yet to put descent offense to date. And talk about unimaginative.
        John 11: 25-27

        My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



        Thanks Snk16

        Comment


        • #94
          Now guys... I wasn't insulting Razor. I was just asking him to voice his opinion on the (ludicrous, my opinion) idea of this trade without bringing the Shanny-bashing into it. Razor isn't such a bad guy when he refrains from blindly ripping the Broncos...which happens on a rare occasion.
          "You can't take the sky from me..."
          ------
          "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by TXBRONC
            Yep Billick the "offensive genius" that he is has yet to put descent offense to date. And talk about unimaginative.

            Even withn all the offensive stars that newsome has aqquired

            1996
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 4 Jonathan Ogden T UCLA
            1 26 Ray Lewis ILB Miami
            2 55 DeRon Jenkins CB Tennessee
            5 153 Jermaine Lewis WR Maryland
            6 172 Dexter Daniels LB Florida
            6 186 James Roe WR Norfolk State
            7 238 Jon Stark QB Trinity, Ill.

            1997
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 4 Peter Boulware OLB Florida State
            2 34 Jamie Sharper MLB Virginia
            2 58 Kim Herring FS Penn State
            3 64 Jay Graham RB Tennessee
            4 118 Tyrus McCloud LB Louisville
            5 134 Jeff Mitchell C Florida
            6 167 Steve Lee FB Indiana

            6 194 Cornell Brown OLB Virginia Tech
            7 205 Chris Ward DE Kentucky
            7 234 Wally Richardson QB Penn State
            7 236 Ralph Staten DB Alabama
            7 238 Leland Taylor DT Louisville

            1998
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 10 Duane Starks CB Miami
            2 42 Pat Johnson WR Oregon
            5 124 Martin Chase DT Oklahoma
            5 133 Ryan Sutter S Colorado
            6 154 Ron Rogers LB Georgia Tech
            6 164 Sammy Williams T Oklahoma
            7 241 Cam Quayle TE Weber State


            1999
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 10 Chris McAlister CB Arizona
            4 105 Brandon Stokley WR Louisiana-Lafayette
            4 129 Edwin Mulitalo G Arizona

            7 216 Anthony Poindexter SS Virginia

            2000
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 5 Jamal Lewis RB Tennessee
            1 10 Travis Taylor WR Florida
            3 75 Chris Redman QB Louisville
            5 148 Richard Mercier G Miami

            6 186 Adalius Thomas OLB Southern Mississippi
            6 191 Cedric Woodard DT Texas

            2001
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 31 Todd Heap TE Arizona State
            2 62 Gary Baxter CB Baylor
            3 92 Casey Rabach C Wisconsin
            4 126 Edgerton Hartwell ILB Western Illinois
            5 161 Chris Barnes RB New Mexico State
            6 194 Joe Maese C New Mexico
            7 231 Dwayne Missouri DE Northwestern

            2002
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 24 Ed Reed SS Miami
            2 52 Anthony Weaver DE Notre Dame
            4 112 Dave Zastudil P Ohio
            4 123 Ron Johnson WR Minnesota
            5 155 Terry Jones TE Alabama

            6 195 Lamont Brightful CB Eastern Washington
            6 206 Javin Hunter WR Notre Dame
            6 207 Chester Taylor RB Toledo

            6 209 Chad Williams SS Southern Mississippi
            7 236 Wes Pate QB Stephen F. Austin

            2003
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            1 10 Terrell Suggs OLB Arizona State
            1 19 Kyle Boller QB California
            3 77 Musa Smith RB Georgia

            4 109 Jarret Johnson DE Alabama
            4 134 Ovie Mughelli FB Wake Forest
            5 146 Aubrayo Franklin NT Tennessee
            5 173 Tony Pashos T Illinois
            6 182 Gerome Sapp FS Notre Dame
            7 223 Trent Smith TE Oklahoma
            7 250 Mike Mabry C Central Florida

            7 258 Antwoine Sanders DB Utah

            2004
            Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
            2 51 Dwan Edwards DE Oregon State
            3 82 Devard Darling WR Washington State
            5 153 Roderick Green OLB Central Missouri
            6 187 Josh Harris QB Bowling Green
            6 199 Clarence Moore WR Northern Arizona
            7 244 Derek Abney WR Kentucky
            7 246 Brian Rimpf T East Carolina



            After looking at this list I'm not so sure of Newsome.
            Jamal Lewis and Todd Heap look like the only keepers in the group. Musa who? After him were Chris brown, Justin FArgas, Dominack Davis, Onterrio Smith, Q and a few more.

            And didn't he trade away Priest or maybe even cut him?

            I do have to say the the Defensive guys are pretty impressive, but isn't the coach an offensive guru?
            Last edited by JRWIZ; 03-11-2005, 09:14 AM.

            Comment


            • #96
              John Ogden, Brandon Stokely, Edwin Mulitalo, Jamal Lewis, Chestor Taylor, Todd Heap, Casey Rabach were all extremely solid for offensive players.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by bleedbluorange
                The whole notion came from a article in a paper. My position is if the scenerio that the writer came up with could work, then look in to it. I wouldnt want to give up every pick to get him. I think that everyone that says all we have to do is switch up the play calling is wrong. I think we do need a player that is unstoppable in the red zone or third down.

                Not that we can creep into the top ten picks through a trade, but the value at the top of the draft isnt that great. I think it's highly likely that teams will be willing to trade out of the top spots. At what cost I dont know. I do know that san francisco is screwed unless they trade out of the number one pick. There few players at the top of the draft the are really coveted by a team.
                1. The whole notion came from an article in the Post by Mike Kizla, who says more stupid things in every article than can be straightened out in a month of posting. His job is not to make sense, it's to stir the pot and he acknowledges that. The serious analysis job is Bill Williamson's. Notice also that Kizla DOESN'T say what it would cost the Broncos to move up enough in the draft to get Williams, or that Shanahan would ever consider doing it.

                2. If you want to get an idea what draft picks are worth here's a site: http://www.nflfans.com/draft/staticp...40112141754733
                It's not exactly what NFL GM's would consider, but it's close enough. You can tell that the value of high draft picks is extreme by the fact that the NY Giants gave up the #1 pick in this years' draft plus the #4 pick overall last year (plus some other picks in 2004 I think) simply to move up the equivalent of 4 places to draft Manning (they traded their #4 pick Phillip Rivers plus the draft picks, but it was a done deal before the draft started). Notice that the #1 pick in the draft is worth 3000pts and the Broncos #25 pick is worth 720pts -- less than 1/3 as much! The Broncos #2 pick (which I assume is #57 overall) is worth 320, the Broncos #3 pick (I'm not sure exactly because there may be added picks here but I believe it comes at the end of the 3rd round, so it's about 112pts) and so on. That's why I say that the entire Broncos draft isn't worth 3000pts, or even 1500pts, the value of the #7 pick overall in the first round.

                3. Moving into the top 10 picks is so expensive because coaches and GM's really value those picks. Sure SF would like to move down and get additional picks, but how far? They might want to move down to #5-7 or something, but to #25? No way.

                No, the number system isn't EXACTLY the values given, but it's close enough that you can add up the numbers and see if a proposed trade is even in the ballpark.

                Then consider what the trade would mean to the team giving up the high pick. If the draft is considered "thin" moving out of the top 10 might mean you go from a sure fire "can't miss" prospect to a big drop-off in talent, even in the thinnest draft there's going to be a few great players.

                But, since rookies are paid according to a set formula based on where they were drafted, that means you probably have to overpay them. You can't tell the agent, "yes we drafted your client #11, but we think he's not NEARLY as talented as the #10 pick, so we won't pay him that much".

                In that case, the top 10 picks might be worth even MORE this year, not less.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #98
                  if it could be done then AWESOME i defenitley would'nt mind having Mike Williams as our WR next season

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Black59Razor
                    I am not impressed with the trading of a fourth-ropunder for an underachieving DT that Cleveland did not want, and who has a one-year deal. IF he has a good season, he, like Reggie Hayward and Bert berry before him will prioce himseld out of the Broncos budget for next season as well...so unless Warren dominates and
                    the Broncos win the Super Bowl, what does his addition amount to? a one-year rental, like Ellis Johnson.
                    . . . .
                    You tell me. If you are Minnesota, or one of the other teams, what do the Broncos have to offer for the seventh (or earlier pick) pick. Just look at what the Vikings had to give up to get it in the first place.....

                    That is the last possible spot you could get Williams, who will go at seven or earlier....what do the Broncos have to offer to moce up into the Top seven??

                    The answwer is, at a minimum, both of your first rounders in 2005 and 2006 at a minimum.....would you want to do that?

                    I like Mike Wiliams. I am already on record as saying he is the best player in this Draft, period. He is going to be a great Pro.....

                    BUT....to move up from 25 to the Top seven would be costly...

                    To me, Vincent Jackson would make more sense, as he would be a similar TYPE of player, albeit not as special as Williams....but then again, no one new much about a small college wideout named Terrell Owens out of Tennessee-Chattanooga, either....so Jackson maybbe one of those players that explodes onto the NFL scene...he certainly has the measureables.....he is also smart, having already graduated with an 'A' average from Northern Colorado, good citizen, etc....would be a Colorado fan favorite?

                    If you crave a WR, spend your second on a player like Jackson and keep your first for DeMarcus Ware
                    Exactly! Gerrard Warren is a stop gap. I was hoping he'd sign a 2-3 year contract, then at least we would get the benefit of taking a chance on him, since he'd be tied up for a few years at a reasonable salary. But now it's head he-wins or tails we lose. He's a FA next year. Either he proves all the critics wrong by his play in Denver or he doesn't. In either case, he's probably gone next year and we're back to square 1 looking for a DL since the Broncos won't have the cap space to outbid everybody for Warren (if he suddenly becomes the monster he was supposed to be coming out of college).
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Black59Razor
                      You tell me. If you are Minnesota, or one of the other teams, what do the Broncos have to offer for the seventh (or earlier pick) pick. Just look at what the Vikings had to give up to get it in the first place.....

                      That is the last possible spot you could get Williams, who will go at seven or earlier....what do the Broncos have to offer to moce up into the Top seven??


                      The answwer is, at a minimum, both of your first rounders in 2005 and 2006 at a minimum.....would you want to do that?

                      I like Mike Wiliams. I am already on record as saying he is the best player in this Draft, period. He is going to be a great Pro.....


                      BUT....to move up from 25 to the Top seven would be costly...
                      There you go. That's exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread. Yes, I'd love to have Mike Williams but, no, he's not worth the cost it would take to trade up for him. Thanks for the opinion.
                      "You can't take the sky from me..."
                      ------
                      "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Javalon
                        There you go. That's exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread. Yes, I'd love to have Mike Williams but, no, he's not worth the cost it would take to trade up for him. Thanks for the opinion.

                        That's right, to get Mike Williams we would sacrifice way too much. Besides I don't see the Vikings being interested because from what I have heard they are chopping at the bit to draft this guy.
                        John 11: 25-27

                        My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                        Thanks Snk16

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TXBRONC
                          That's right, to get Mike Williams we would sacrifice way too much. Besides I don't see the Vikings being interested because from what I have heard they are chopping at the bit to draft this guy.
                          If he's as good as reputed, the Vikes could have given up troubled-child Moss but still find a close replacement along with the Raiduhs best linebacker, and probably saving money to boot. Of course, the Vikings have a lot of other holes to fill so this is no slam dunk.
                          "You can't take the sky from me..."
                          ------
                          "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                            John Ogden, Brandon Stokely, Edwin Mulitalo, Jamal Lewis, Chestor Taylor, Todd Heap, Casey Rabach were all extremely solid for offensive players.

                            Yep Seven solid players over 8 years great odds. Especially for that offensive wizard they have for a coach.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Black59Razor
                              What's your take on David Boston?....I know you both probably posted this elsewhere last week.....but I was on, uh, vacation


                              I say sign him to a one-year deal...
                              Sure, as long as it doesn't cost the Broncos more than a grilled cheese sandwich and a bottle of gatorade.™
                              This space for rent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
                                John Ogden, Brandon Stokely, Edwin Mulitalo, Jamal Lewis, Chestor Taylor, Todd Heap, Casey Rabach were all extremely solid for offensive players.
                                Yeah those are all very solid players, but looking at the rankings Billick has never put a potent offense on the field in his tenure thus far and he supposedly has a reputation as offensive minded coach. Stokely is solid but he really didn't come into his own until this year.
                                John 11: 25-27

                                My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                                Thanks Snk16

                                Comment

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