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  • #91
    Originally posted by Ravage!!!
    Then how come it hasn't been easier for defenses to stop the pass? I mean, we have been passing in the NFL for years and years and years. You would think we could stop it completely by now. There are only so many pass routes to run. There is only so much yardage to use. The field hasn't changed in size. There is still only one QB throwing the ball at a time...
    Yep. Regardless of blocking schemes all teams have the same types of routes to choose from as every other team. The bottom line is execution.
    John 11: 25-27

    My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



    Thanks Snk16

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    • #92
      Originally posted by TXBRONC
      Yep. Regardless of blocking schemes all teams have the same types of routes to choose from as every other team. The bottom line is execution.
      Execution is the key... absolutely. Thats exactly right. Thats why a team is able to run the ball even though everyone knows that they are going to run the ball... execution.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JRWIZ
        Sorry waht don't;t you understand about more teams going to our style of Oline zone blocking.

        As more and more do so More DC and defenses are used to playing them.
        That's an interesting theory. But I don't subscribe to it.

        There are, what, four teams that run the zone blocking scheme now? They aren't exactly pouring onto the bandwagon. Mostly because the teams still seem obsessed by size when it comes to offensive linemen and the system just doesn't seem to work as well with the bigger chunks.

        The scheme is just not common enough for teams to really get used to it. Compare it to the 3-4 defenses (valid comparison because we're talking effective schemes) which are now a lot more common but most offenses still struggle to attack it. If the scheme is sound and you can run it well, it'll still work even when teams see it more often.

        The offense works best when someone (DL) over pursues, if the DEFENSE stays at home we can't run, at least not very effectively. becuase of the weight of our Olinemen most are out weighed by the DL and in some cases LB's.

        Once we get the Dl moving one way it is easy to cut back against it.
        If it were that simple, don't you think teams would do it? The defensive lines can't stay at home (in the sense you're using it here) because our offensive line and the ball carrier are always moving. If they are clogging the holes in the middle then the running backs don't break and keep heading to the outside, but there are usually holes because it's such a hard scheme to stay disciplined against.

        And don't forget the bootlegs, both the fakes and the real ones. They are designed to take advantage of what the defense gives. If the defense is overpursuing then we run real boot legs. If they're staying disciplined then we fake the bootlegs and take advantage of the lack of extra defenders pursuing the ball carrier.

        It's a system that is hard to defend when run well, even when the defense is prepared for it. And that's because it simply takes advantage of whatever the defense gives. As long as we have good personnel to run the scheme, then it will continue to be very effective, IMO.

        Like in Superbowl against GB we had the fatman (can't think of his name right now) so winded he could barely get off the field to take a breather. Till then they had never played against this kind of offense line. before Gibbs it was one lineman beating another one Mano a Mano. Occasionally otehr teams would do the student body left or right but it was not to cut back against it was to mow the DL down to run over it.

        Once we have the DL going one direction it is hard to stop the runner.

        But if they stay at home and do not budge our guy has a tough time finding yardage cause there is on cut back. This is where we need the beef, especially down near the goal. We have to revert to alot of trick plays everyone in motion to teh left and the QB goes right, swing pass to the FB. We don't have the same depth of field as we do out near the 10 or more.
        The big guy you're referring to was Gilbert Brown. And I'm not sure why you're using a dominant performance by the system as evidence that it is flawed.

        Regardless, what we need near the goal line is to have more weapons, especially through the air. Our lack of good red zone tight ends and receivers means defenses can clamp down even more against the run when we get down close. Rod has been our only semi-respectable red zone threat through the air. Lelie becomes freaking useless near the end zone. No other receivers or tight ends in the past couple years have been any kind of threat near the goal line. We used to have McCaffrey, Sharpe and an occasional second TE in addition to Rod who defenses had to respect in the passing game which loosened up the run in the red zone.

        Plus we had a premier running back who was especially good at finding the end zone. Outside of Portis, we've been getting by with decent to pretty good running backs. Getting another premier back would also make a big difference.

        All that being said, I think we could use an upgrade in talent at a couple of spots along the offensive line. But I don't think bigger is necessarily the solution.

        Not sure I explained it any better but the facts are as more teams go to zone blocking the harder it will be to beat the defenses.
        But it's not likely to happen unless the NFL as a whole shifts its philosophy on offensive linemen. I believe the scheme simply works better with the type of linemen the Broncos target but the NFL just can't seem to bring itself to endorse that philosophy. And even if it somehow becomes more common, it will still be effective when run with precision and good execution.
        "You can't take the sky from me..."
        ------
        "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Ravage!!!
          Then how come it hasn't been easier for defenses to stop the pass? I mean, we have been passing in the NFL for years and years and years. You would think we could stop it completely by now. There are only so many pass routes to run. There is only so much yardage to use. The field hasn't changed in size. There is still only one QB throwing the ball at a time...
          zone blocking is limited as a general rule to a yard or so plus or minus the LOS from sideline to sideline although it generally stays within a couple of yards from where the player actually line up. Most teams play 7-8 in the box to defend and we have five linemen a TE or two a RB and a FB as well as a QB all in the general area.

          Now the forward pass is limited to sideline to sideline, and as many yards in front of the LOS up to and counting the depth of the endzone.
          Could as many as 110 yards time the width of the field all being defended 3 perhaps 4 players, who are not 7 or 8 in the box.

          Without taking into account the advances in the quality of the athletes and the playbooks designed to defeat said 4 players.

          That's a lot of space to defend.

          BTW DEN does this and plays 16 games a year against other teams

          ATL is a proponent to it also 16 games

          HOu is going to it almost exclusively although many of their plays the past couple of years they zone blocked.

          That is almost ten percent of the games played defensively against a ZB team. It is less novelty item that some DC's can hope will go away. They will learn to defense them.

          Have I made myself clear on this
          Last edited by JRWIZ; 06-21-2006, 12:42 AM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by JRWIZ
            zone blocking is limited as a general rule to a yard or so plus or minus the LOS from sideline to sideline although it generally stays within a couple of yards from where the player actually line up. Most teams play 7-8 in the box to defend and we have five linemen a TE or two a RB and a FB as well as a QB all in the general area.

            Now the forward pass is limited to sideline to sideline, and as many yards in front of the LOS up to and counting the depth of the endzone.
            Could as many as 110 yards time the width of the field all being defended 3 perhaps 4 players, who are not 7 or 8 in the box.

            Without taking into account the advances in the quality of the athletes and the playbooks designed to defeat said 4 players.

            That's a lot of space to defend.

            BTW DEN does this and plays 16 games a year against other teams

            ATL is a proponent to it also 16 games

            HOu is going to it almost exclusively although many of their plays the past couple of years they zone blocked.

            That is almost ten percent of the games played defensively against a ZB team. It is less novelty item that some DC's can hope will go away. They will learn to defense them.

            Have I made myself clear on this
            As it has been stated before JR there are only four teams that run our kind of blocking scheme. If it were more in vogue I think you would see more linemen the size of ours starting in NFL. As it is most teams still prefer the bigger offensive linemen.

            Btw from what I learned about the zone blocking scheme over pursuit isn't as important as the following: 1.) Sealing off the backside for cut back lane. 2.) Sustaining blocks al long as possible. 3.) Taking the defender where he wants to go. In other words, use the direction of his own momentum against him.
            John 11: 25-27

            My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



            Thanks Snk16

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by TXBRONC
              As it has been stated before JR there are only four teams that run our kind of blocking scheme. If it were more in vogue I think you would see more linemen the size of ours starting in NFL. As it is most teams still prefer the bigger offensive linemen.

              Btw from what I learned about the zone blocking scheme over pursuit isn't as important as the following: 1.) Sealing off the backside for cut back lane. 2.) Sustaining blocks al long as possible. 3.) Taking the defender where he wants to go. In other words, use the direction of his own momentum against him.
              We are both correct in this area.

              But as more teams get into it, more DC are going to spend more time working on defensing it better. Instead of having ONE game a year that some of these teams could actually be playing as many as 3-5 games a year against it.

              As more and more teams work on defenses against it it becomes less effective, like the WCO has become over the past decade.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by JRWIZ
                We are both correct in this area.

                But as more teams get into it, more DC are going to spend more time working on defensing it better. Instead of having ONE game a year that some of these teams could actually be playing as many as 3-5 games a year against it.

                As more and more teams work on defenses against it it becomes less effective, like the WCO has become over the past decade.
                First off, teams that are only about 10% likely to see the zone blocking scheme can't afford to devote a lot of time specifically to it. They'll likely only see it once or twice in a season. But this is not even really a big issue.

                Secondly, the other AFC West teams have been destroyed by our zone blocking scheme for 11 years now. You'd think they would have extra incentive to prepare for it and yet they still can't adapt despite seeing it twice a year or more.

                Third, what about the nearly 90% of offenses that do not run zone blocking schemes? They still produce some good offenses even though all defenses are prepared to deal with standard blocking schemes. Why? Because of good players and good execution.

                As long as the Broncos put good players in our zone blocking scheme and execute well, our offense will still be effective. Just like any other offense.
                "You can't take the sky from me..."
                ------
                "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding"

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Javalon
                  First off, teams that are only about 10% likely to see the zone blocking scheme can't afford to devote a lot of time specifically to it. They'll likely only see it once or twice in a season. But this is not even really a big issue.

                  Secondly, the other AFC West teams have been destroyed by our zone blocking scheme for 11 years now. You'd think they would have extra incentive to prepare for it and yet they still can't adapt despite seeing it twice a year or more.

                  Third, what about the nearly 90% of offenses that do not run zone blocking schemes? They still produce some good offenses even though all defenses are prepared to deal with standard blocking schemes. Why? Because of good players and good execution.

                  As long as the Broncos put good players in our zone blocking scheme and execute well, our offense will still be effective. Just like any other offense.
                  This was going to be my next point, but you said it first... so a cp to you.

                  If teams have been seeing the other "traditional" blocking schemes with 90+ % of the teams in the NFL games, then how is ANYONE able to run the ball if the DCs have seen it all before and are prepared for it? Execution. Doesn't matter if they know whats coming, if the other team executes better, its still going to work, period.

                  Excellent point on the AFC West teams facing us...

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Javalon
                    First off, teams that are only about 10% likely to see the zone blocking scheme can't afford to devote a lot of time specifically to it. They'll likely only see it once or twice in a season. But this is not even really a big issue.

                    Secondly, the other AFC West teams have been destroyed by our zone blocking scheme for 11 years now. You'd think they would have extra incentive to prepare for it and yet they still can't adapt despite seeing it twice a year or more.

                    Third, what about the nearly 90% of offenses that do not run zone blocking schemes? They still produce some good offenses even though all defenses are prepared to deal with standard blocking schemes. Why? Because of good players and good execution.

                    As long as the Broncos put good players in our zone blocking scheme and execute well, our offense will still be effective. Just like any other offense.
                    Must spread around blah blah blah.... so I owe you one!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JRWIZ
                      We are both correct in this area.

                      But as more teams get into it, more DC are going to spend more time working on defensing it better. Instead of having ONE game a year that some of these teams could actually be playing as many as 3-5 games a year against it.

                      As more and more teams work on defenses against it it becomes less effective, like the WCO has become over the past decade.
                      The WCO has been around for nearly 30 years if was the hotest thing going it sure wouldn't take 30 years for it to become popular. If the zone blocking scheme was in vogue which I can't see that it is more than just four teams would be using it. So at this point I don't see great influx in the use of the WCO offense and the zone blocking scheme.
                      John 11: 25-27

                      My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                      Thanks Snk16

                      Comment

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