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which cb would you pick in first round?

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  • #46
    If we are going to take a CB Surtain or Farley look to be really good choices. Fangio and Patton will do their homework and decide who is best.

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    • #47
      Watched some more of these guys, for me it’s Horn. Sure his tackling is atrocious and he shoots his hands every time a WR makes a cut (which will get called a lot more in the NFL) but he can thrive in any coverage scheme. Once a coach gets with him and teaches him to control WRs at the LoS and just ride them instead of when they make their cut he’ll be an elite CB.

      Surtain is a solid player, absolutely and a very dependable tackler but if he can’t jam you at the line he tends to struggle. Definitely don’t want him matched up against Hill, Ruggs, or even Allen. He might actually be a better fit at S where you can use him to lock up the TEs in the division. If not keep a S over the top for him and keep him matched up against the more physical style of WRs because his long speed is a very big question mark. But his film study definitely shows up on tape because he puts himself in very good positions to take away what the WR is trying to do.

      Farley looks to be a big boom or bust prospect from what little I’ve seen. He has fluid hips to turn and run but from what I’ve seen he doesn’t seem to trust his speed. He gambled a lot and is susceptible to double moves and he opens his hips up super quick so curls and comebacks may be a problem for him. He doesn’t really seem very physical out there despite his size. But I haven’t watched very much on him at all so maybe these were just isolate incidents.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
        Watched some more of these guys, for me it’s Horn. Sure his tackling is atrocious and he shoots his hands every time a WR makes a cut (which will get called a lot more in the NFL) but he can thrive in any coverage scheme. Once a coach gets with him and teaches him to control WRs at the LoS and just ride them instead of when they make their cut he’ll be an elite CB.

        Surtain is a solid player, absolutely and a very dependable tackler but if he can’t jam you at the line he tends to struggle. Definitely don’t want him matched up against Hill, Ruggs, or even Allen. He might actually be a better fit at S where you can use him to lock up the TEs in the division. If not keep a S over the top for him and keep him matched up against the more physical style of WRs because his long speed is a very big question mark. But his film study definitely shows up on tape because he puts himself in very good positions to take away what the WR is trying to do.

        Farley looks to be a big boom or bust prospect from what little I’ve seen. He has fluid hips to turn and run but from what I’ve seen he doesn’t seem to trust his speed. He gambled a lot and is susceptible to double moves and he opens his hips up super quick so curls and comebacks may be a problem for him. He doesn’t really seem very physical out there despite his size. But I haven’t watched very much on him at all so maybe these were just isolate incidents.
        I'm glad you put yourself out there. I was starting to think I was the only one. Yeah, pencil me in for Jaycee Horn. Surtain might be the best all round right now, or most polished. Farley very well may be the best fit for us. I think Horn has incredible upside, though. I mean if you asked me which of the three would turn into an all pro, I think I'd gamble on Horn. I'm with you on Farley. The bust potential is terrifying, and Surtain is probably the safest pick.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
          Watched some more of these guys, for me it’s Horn. Sure his tackling is atrocious and he shoots his hands every time a WR makes a cut (which will get called a lot more in the NFL) but he can thrive in any coverage scheme. Once a coach gets with him and teaches him to control WRs at the LoS and just ride them instead of when they make their cut he’ll be an elite CB.

          Surtain is a solid player, absolutely and a very dependable tackler but if he can’t jam you at the line he tends to struggle. Definitely don’t want him matched up against Hill, Ruggs, or even Allen. He might actually be a better fit at S where you can use him to lock up the TEs in the division. If not keep a S over the top for him and keep him matched up against the more physical style of WRs because his long speed is a very big question mark. But his film study definitely shows up on tape because he puts himself in very good positions to take away what the WR is trying to do.

          Farley looks to be a big boom or bust prospect from what little I’ve seen. He has fluid hips to turn and run but from what I’ve seen he doesn’t seem to trust his speed. He gambled a lot and is susceptible to double moves and he opens his hips up super quick so curls and comebacks may be a problem for him. He doesn’t really seem very physical out there despite his size. But I haven’t watched very much on him at all so maybe these were just isolate incidents.
          And that's why I don't think the Broncos would consider him. In the past few years Fangio has made a point (usually around draft time) that his corners have to be able and willing tacklers.

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          • #50
            Horn would bring a mean, fearless attitude to that CB room. I think he has better scheme versatility than Surtain. My only gripes with Horn is that he’s not as technically-advanced as Surtain/Farley and he tends to be really grabby in coverage. His game against Auburn this past season is just a joy to watch— probably my favorite film by a CB in this class.
            2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
            Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

              And that's why I don't think the Broncos would consider him. In the past few years Fangio has made a point (usually around draft time) that his corners have to be able and willing tacklers.
              He has and I think it’s a bit of a flawed approach. The CB’s first job is to stop the target from catching the ball and Horn is very good at that. I wouldn’t value tackling above coverage ability and I don’t think anyone in this class can match Horn in terms of pure coverage ability.

              And the good thing is, you can coach a guy into becoming a good tackler, you can’t always coach a guy into being a good cover guy. So while Surtain may bring more to the table as a tackler, I think he has significant limitations as a CB. Doesn’t mean he won’t be good, but you do have to be wary of a lot more matchups with Surtain than you would Horn. Surtain is probably an ideal SS or a Cover 2 CB IMO. In a man heavy scheme he’s going to be matchup dependent and you’ll likely have to play a lot 2 man so he can be aggressive at the LoS. Don’t think he’s a good fit for Cover 3 of Cover 1 at all, I don’t think he’s comfortable off the LoS (which we do a ton of) and with his long speed you probably can’t play him at the LoS. But then again Marlon Humphrey had very similar concerns coming out and then ran a 4.3 and developed into a great do it all CB very early in his career.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
                Horn would bring a mean, fearless attitude to that CB room. I think he has better scheme versatility than Surtain. My only gripes with Horn is that he’s not as technically-advanced as Surtain/Farley and he tends to be really grabby in coverage. His game against Auburn this past season is just a joy to watch— probably my favorite film by a CB in this class.
                He definitely pushes the limit on what’s allowed. But it almost always happens as a WR makes a cut or a stem, I rarely see it at the snap. I’m not sure if that’s what South Carolina coaches or not, but I know Georgia coaches it so it’s possible. College coaches coach some weird things that don’t always translate because they have to find ways to minimize a talent gap.

                But if he gets a DB coach that gets him to press off the snap, he will learn that refs give a little more lee way with what is allowed and that he can actually feel the route as it’s happening much better which will allow him to make more plays on the ball.

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                • #53
                  i think Fairley has the highest upside of any one in this group. he is 2 years in the cb and played WR before that. his ball skills are the best in the class for CB. he has great size and speed. he is pretty physical and i feel he is just scratching the surface of his talent level.

                  i think Surtain probably has the highest floor though. the combine or pro days are gonna be huge for him. his biggest worry or what i see people being worried about his speed. he seems to be a slower CB which could really hurt him. he also may struggle against the faster CBs.

                  i like Horn alot, but there is an obvious reason he the third CB in this class. he has been inconsistent in college. some times he looks like the best CB in the class some times he looks average at best. i also feel Pro-days/combine will be big for him. i feel there is a bit of questions about his speed.
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                  • #54
                    Keep this excerpt from PFF in mind when it comes to Fangio and cornerbacks.

                    It’s not easy to find cornerbacks with the ability to play man coverage at a high level. Athleticism becomes more of a necessity than an added bonus on man-heavy defenses with the assignments that cornerbacks are tasked with. It’s not a skill set that Vic Fangio prioritizes on his defenses, though.

                    Fangio’s defenses will primarily employ zone coverage, and that zone coverage will be overwhelmingly off-zone coverage. Only the Carolina Panthers and Los Angeles Chargers have run fewer defensive snaps with a press coverage look over the last two seasons than Denver. We saw the Broncos target a player who primarily played off-zone coverage in Ojemudia last season out of Iowa. There’s a good chance that Fangio and company look for a similar skill set this offseason, whether that be in the draft or free agency.
                    2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
                    Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                      And that's why I don't think the Broncos would consider him. In the past few years Fangio has made a point (usually around draft time) that his corners have to be able and willing tacklers.
                      Yep, this was my concern with Horn. Surtain didn't miss tackles in the 4 Alabama games I watched this year. I do believe guys can learn to tackle better, and sometimes quickly, if they put in the offseason work. Ojemudia was a better tackler late in the season then at the start. With Horn it might be a couple of pointers here or there and hey make a huge difference. It's not like he avoids contact or is unaggressive. Fairley is pretty physical for a former WR too.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
                        Keep this excerpt from PFF in mind when it comes to Fangio and cornerbacks.
                        Which is why I think Surtain is an odd fit. He checks a lot of Fangio’s boxes but off coverage is not one of them. That’s also why I think Samuel is the ideal CB for his scheme. I’d probably put him 2nd behind Horn just because of how Samuel fits and how ridiculous I think Horn can be regardless of the scheme he’s placed in.

                        FSU seems to primarily run match zone concepts out of Cover 3 and Cover 6 concepts. We run a lot of cover 4 match zones but his role would remain pretty much the same. Samuel didn’t play much near the LoS from what I’ve seen but he looks capable from the limited looks where he’s there. His ability to break on the ball is great though and since we play so much off coverage we desperately need that in a CB. His tackling is inconsistent but he’s a very willing tackler and generally wraps up, his size just hurts him at times. Although he did chop down AJ Dillon behind the LoS. He recognizes routes pretty well and is quick to jump on short stuff, but I do think he fell for some short bait at times to open up deeper routes. Usually seemed to be a skinny post when it did get completed deeper down the field, but in a Cover 4 that really shouldn’t be open. I am trying to find someone run a corner/out combo to his side where the WR stems his route towards the inside just to see how he reacted to that, that could be something that gives him big problems if he reads the inside stem and jumps the out thinking that the other target is running an inside breaking route. That’s really a film study thing but it can give an insight into whether he’s gambling (guessing) or is actually reading the route concept.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
                          Keep this excerpt from PFF in mind when it comes to Fangio and cornerbacks.
                          That dumbs down a lot of what Fangio does. It's not really zone, it's a read coverage that matches routes. That's why the corners play off, because they're reading the route combinations to pick up players man to man.

                          In the same way that zone blocking on the o-line is 2 blockers for 2 defenders, but the blocks not being determined until after the defense starts to move, Fangio's read coverage is 2 defenders for 2 receivers (2 is just an example) with who they're covering not determined until routes start to develop. The inside defender will take first route that goes inside, while the outside defender will take the first defender that goes outside. If both routes start with vertical stems they'll match those until the routes develop further. if it's double in cuts, the inside defender takes the first route inside, outside defender takes the second route inside.

                          The concept was developed by the 1994 Cleveland Browns, with Belichick at HC and Nick Saban as DC. They had trouble with different route combinations against Pittsburgh or Miami (I can't remember which one) and they realized they couldn't play cover 3 (zone coverage) or cover 1 (man to man coverage) against them, so they developed this coverage. It's a hybrid of zone and man to man, but is really a man to man coverage because the zone aspect is only at the start until routes start to develop.

                          Notice who the DC was who developed it, notice he coaches at a university with one of the corners we're discussing. I think they take Surtain because of his pedigree, as well as his familiarity with this coverage.

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                          • #58
                            I would like to ask those more knowledgeable than me... which quality CB's started out as WR's?

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                            • #59
                              I am liking Surtain a player who can play any scheme and a sure tackler. I dont want a guy with lose technique getting abused by Mahomes and giving away yards on PI calls. I saw a mention to Horn can get grabby when beat.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by BiscuitBronco View Post
                                I would like to ask those more knowledgeable than me... which quality CB's started out as WR's?
                                Current guys I can think of are Richard Sherman, Quinton Dunbar, and Trevon Diggs. Champ actually lined up at receiver a lot in college, though that was never his exclusive position. A lot more than Charles Woodson did.

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