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  • #61
    Originally posted by licence_to_kill View Post
    I have to go to work, so if you haven't figured out why you're both wrong by the time I get back then I will kindly explain it to you.

    I have confidence in you.
    You said that a few years ago he was the best CB in the league (still bollocks). We know you said that, but Cro has been nothing but disappointing since then, that's what the other poster was saying. But you injected your stupid one line answer with "lrn2readingcomprehension" instead of saying "I know, I already said that"
    Last edited by Andyy_47; 02-18-2010, 04:57 PM. Reason: picture was abit big.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Accordngs View Post
      Moreno has no value? LOL! The guy was the leading rookie rusher in the NFL on a team where he shared carries. He was #16 in the league in rushing. Not bad for a guy who wasn't even a starter every game. He had 9 total TD's. I'm not saying he's CJ or ADP....but he has shown plenty of promise and is already a better contributor than Cro.

      Champ is still worth much more than Cro even late in his career. Calling him injury prone is a joke. Last year he started every game. In 2008 he started 9 out of 16....and in EVERY year before that he has never not started more than 2 games in a season. In his 11 seasons that totals 176 possible games to start....he has started in 166 --- or 94%....that is injury prone? LOL. I guess the entire Charger team is injury prone by that definition than. Including Gates, Hardwick, McNeil, Merriman, Castillo, Williams, Weddle, etc.
      Here ya go:

      Here is the relevant quote:
      "One source said the team talked with the Dallas Cowboys recently about a deal involving Cowboys running back Tashard Choice, though it was not known whether there were any other components involved in a potential deal. The Cowboys were not interested."

      http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2.../1s18chargers/

      And even "experts" are saying that Cro is probably worth only a 3rd rounder:

      ESPN:
      "So, if San Diego could get some value for Cromartie, I could see him being shipped out. Realistic compensation for Cromartie is probably a third-round pick."


      http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post...-horrible-idea



      Look again amigo. Ward WAS NOT Champ's assignment. He was lined up across from Santonio Holmes.

      It was a screen pass that went over to Champ's side after the play began. Not his coverage man. Exactly as I told you....

      Before the play Champ on Holmes:


      After catch you can see the balls was thrown to Ward who was not Champ's assignment.

      Just compare moreno's production to a injury prone Buckhalter in the same system. Didn't Moreno avg 3.3 YPC or 3.6YPC?? That's on par with LT at his worst, this year at 30. Sorry a probowl CB who is still young at the CB position has 3 times more value than another run of the mill RB who has proven nothing in the NFL. Cromartie has proven alot more, plays a more valuable position which is tougher to acquire talent at. He's flat out a better CB than Moreno is a RB and rather easily to.

      Despite his poor display in the playoffs in TACKLING Green on 2 plays and occasionally throughout the season in tackling at SOME spots, Cromartie had a very good season that was top 10 like. His numbers don't lie, check the metrics or do I have to post them and compare them to others for you? On top of SD's 1 deep defense which had alot of pressure coming from DB blitzes and Jammer and Cro in single coverage alot more than most all CB's.

      Meanwhile Moreno was out produced by what a 30 yr old RB with knee problems in the same system.

      No chance does Champ have the value Cromartie does. Champ is gonna be 32 yrs old. He has 2 years left at best. Cro has 8 to 9 years left. Not even close, seriously.

      I guess it just seemed like Champ was injured alot, because without the aid of a good pass rush his play was not note worthy. Lets be honest! 07 and 08 struggled/bad/average seasons at best. But with a pass rush he played much better. Which most CB's do.


      So now you put stock into what Willimson says on his AFCW blogs?? His opinion is comparable to NFL GM's and what their opinion of a players worth is. He is the holy bible in NFL trade stock?? Get real.

      As for the signonsandiego article, as it says they don't know what other components were involved. SD could of asked for Choice and a 2nd rd pick.

      Doesn't matter if it wasn't his assignment, isn't that what you guys said WEEK 1 2008 with Weddle vs Rosario Panthers TE?? But this incident with Champ gave him higher probability of making a play/tackle/preventing the TD than Weddle's did.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ChargersDivison View Post
        Just compare moreno's production to a injury prone Buckhalter in the same system. Didn't Moreno avg 3.3 YPC or 3.6YPC?? That's on par with LT at his worst, this year at 30. Sorry a probowl CB who is still young at the CB position has 3 times more value than another run of the mill RB who has proven nothing in the NFL. Cromartie has proven alot more, plays a more valuable position which is tougher to acquire talent at. He's flat out a better CB than Moreno is a RB and rather easily to.

        Despite his poor display in the playoffs in TACKLING Green on 2 plays and occasionally throughout the season in tackling at SOME spots, Cromartie had a very good season that was top 10 like. His numbers don't lie, check the metrics or do I have to post them and compare them to others for you? On top of SD's 1 deep defense which had alot of pressure coming from DB blitzes and Jammer and Cro in single coverage alot more than most all CB's.

        Meanwhile Moreno was out produced by what a 30 yr old RB with knee problems in the same system.

        No chance does Champ have the value Cromartie does. Champ is gonna be 32 yrs old. He has 2 years left at best. Cro has 8 to 9 years left. Not even close, seriously.

        I guess it just seemed like Champ was injured alot, because without the aid of a good pass rush his play was not note worthy. Lets be honest! 07 and 08 struggled/bad/average seasons at best. But with a pass rush he played much better. Which most CB's do.


        So now you put stock into what Willimson says on his AFCW blogs?? His opinion is comparable to NFL GM's and what their opinion of a players worth is. He is the holy bible in NFL trade stock?? Get real.

        As for the signonsandiego article, as it says they don't know what other components were involved. SD could of asked for Choice and a 2nd rd pick.

        Doesn't matter if it wasn't his assignment, isn't that what you guys said WEEK 1 2008 with Weddle vs Rosario Panthers TE?? But this incident with Champ gave him higher probability of making a play/tackle/preventing the TD than Weddle's did.
        LT avg'd 3.6 yds a carry his rookie year, 5 fumbles, 4 lost. You realize Moreno is a rookie, shared carries and is not 3-4 years into his career, right troll?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
          LT avg'd 3.6 yds a carry his rookie year, 5 fumbles, 4 lost. You realize Moreno is a rookie, shared carries and is not 3-4 years into his career, right troll?
          LT proved himself, LT had 1200 plus rushing yds, 1600 plus yds from scrimmage.

          Moreno didn't even have 1200 yds from scrimmage with so called one of the best o-lines according to Bronco fans...


          LT's worst year is basically as good as Moreno's best year. LT's 09 season.

          Don't compare a 1st ballot HOF'er to some average rookie run of the mill RB who has proven nothing.

          Comment


          • #65
            Moreno's athletic ceiling is also extremely low compared to LT's which is pretty sad considering how high he was picked.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by ChargersDivison View Post
              Just compare moreno's production to a injury prone Buckhalter in the same system. Didn't Moreno avg 3.3 YPC or 3.6YPC?? That's on par with LT at his worst, this year at 30. Sorry a probowl CB who is still young at the CB position has 3 times more value than another run of the mill RB who has proven nothing in the NFL. Cromartie has proven alot more, plays a more valuable position which is tougher to acquire talent at. He's flat out a better CB than Moreno is a RB and rather easily to.

              Despite his poor display in the playoffs in TACKLING Green on 2 plays and occasionally throughout the season in tackling at SOME spots, Cromartie had a very good season that was top 10 like. His numbers don't lie, check the metrics or do I have to post them and compare them to others for you? On top of SD's 1 deep defense which had alot of pressure coming from DB blitzes and Jammer and Cro in single coverage alot more than most all CB's.

              Meanwhile Moreno was out produced by what a 30 yr old RB with knee problems in the same system.

              No chance does Champ have the value Cromartie does. Champ is gonna be 32 yrs old. He has 2 years left at best. Cro has 8 to 9 years left. Not even close, seriously.

              I guess it just seemed like Champ was injured alot, because without the aid of a good pass rush his play was not note worthy. Lets be honest! 07 and 08 struggled/bad/average seasons at best. But with a pass rush he played much better. Which most CB's do.


              So now you put stock into what Willimson says on his AFCW blogs?? His opinion is comparable to NFL GM's and what their opinion of a players worth is. He is the holy bible in NFL trade stock?? Get real.

              As for the signonsandiego article, as it says they don't know what other components were involved. SD could of asked for Choice and a 2nd rd pick.

              Doesn't matter if it wasn't his assignment, isn't that what you guys said WEEK 1 2008 with Weddle vs Rosario Panthers TE?? But this incident with Champ gave him higher probability of making a play/tackle/preventing the TD than Weddle's did.
              Moreno averaged 3.8ypc. No one here is arguing that he is a hall of famer right now. But he has shown promise to be a solid RB in this league.

              Why don't you put that into perspective...

              Rookie year:
              Emmitt Smith - 3.9ypc
              Walter Payton - 3.5ypc
              Ladanian Tomlinson - 3.6ypc
              Marshall Faulk - 3.7ypc (2nd year) 3.0ypc (3rd year)
              Marcus Allen - 3.8ypc (2nd year)
              Thomas Jones - 3.3ypc
              Ricky Williams - 3.5ypc

              and I can go on. The point is all of those guys went on to have great careers..many of them hall of fame. Including your beloved LT. So to say that Moreno has no potential because of a 3.8ypc on a rookie season. He wore down near the end, he admitted it. His ypc was over 4 for most of the season until the end. He's a rookie and will adjust to the longer season.


              With Cro the league's seen what they will get. An average corner cover, and a terrible tackler and undisciplined player with good athletic ability. That's it...its not going to change after 4 years in the NFL.

              That UT article did say there could be other factors...but it was clear on one thing...the Cowboys weren't interested in Cromartie. I am sure if they were they would of discussed a way to make it happen. They didn't even want to talk about trading for a 3rd string RB.

              Champs value is higher. Sure he is getting older, but he still plays at a high level. The guy had a great year. He tackles probably better than 99% of other corners in the league and rarely gets beat. Teams barely even throw at the guy which is a huge intangible that can't even be calculated in stats. Teams never fear Cro...they TARGET him for a reason.

              It doesn't matter if Champ made the tackle in regard to Wards' TD. The fact is it wasn't his man in coverage...so it doesn't count as his stat for a TD. That is way different than a Safety like Weddle. Weddle was in a zone coverage and that was his area to cover with Rosario. Champ was in man-man coverage on Holmes. Your reaching desperately and comparing apples and oranges.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by licence_to_kill View Post
                Moreno's athletic ceiling is also extremely low compared to LT's which is pretty sad considering how high he was picked.
                That makes a lot of sense. So I guess every RB drafted in the top 12 should be as athletically gifted as LT?

                You guys like to come here and argue LT is the best RB to play...so how can anyone compare to him? Especially a rookie????

                You Charger fans seem to forget that LT's rookie year was anything but spectacular....

                3.6ypc, 8 fumbles! 10 total TD's 1236 yards on 336 carries

                Moreno
                3.8ypc, 4 fumbles, 9 total TD's 947 yards on 247 carries

                Good thing you guys weren't judging LT back then....you guys would of said he had a low ceiling with no potential.

                Other than the 40 yard dash Knowshon was almost identical to LT at the combine.

                40 yd dash
                KM - 4.55
                LT - 4.38

                20ss
                KM - 4.27
                LT - 4.21

                3 Cone
                KM - 6.84
                LT - 6.84

                Bench Press
                KM - 25
                LT 18

                Vert
                KM - 35.5
                LT - 40.5
                Last edited by Accordngs; 02-19-2010, 10:49 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Accordngs View Post
                  That makes a lot of sense. So I guess every RB drafted in the top 12 should be as athletically gifted as LT?

                  You guys like to come here and argue LT is the best RB to play...so how can anyone compare to him? Especially a rookie????

                  You Charger fans seem to forget that LT's rookie year was anything but spectacular....

                  3.6ypc, 8 fumbles! 10 total TD's 1236 yards on 336 carries

                  Moreno
                  3.8ypc, 4 fumbles, 9 total TD's 947 yards on 347 carries

                  Good thing you guys weren't judging LT back then....you guys would of said he had a low ceiling with no potential.

                  Other than the 40 yard dash Knowshon was almost identical to LT at the combine.

                  40 yd dash
                  KM - 4.55
                  LT - 4.38

                  20ss
                  KM - 4.27
                  LT - 4.21

                  3 Cone
                  KM - 6.84
                  LT - 6.84

                  Bench Press
                  KM - 25
                  LT 18

                  Vert
                  KM - 35.5
                  LT - 40.5
                  Knowshon only had 247 carries his rookie year, but agree with all of it.

                  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...playerId=12516

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Accordngs View Post
                    40 yd dash
                    KM - 4.55
                    LT - 4.38
                    hahahahahahaha

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by licence_to_kill View Post
                      hahahahahahaha
                      2>>>>>>>>>>>0 hahahahahahahhahaa

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by licence_to_kill View Post
                        hahahahahahaha
                        Emmitt Smith ran a 4.8 40 yard dash at his college combine. Not saying Moreno is going to be as good as Emmitt Smith, but even he was considered too slow for the pros, look how that turned out.

                        Jerry Rice is the greatest football player ever to play, he ran a 4.7

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Accordngs View Post
                          Moreno averaged 3.8ypc. No one here is arguing that he is a hall of famer right now. But he has shown promise to be a solid RB in this league.

                          Why don't you put that into perspective...

                          Rookie year:
                          Emmitt Smith - 3.9ypc
                          Walter Payton - 3.5ypc
                          Ladanian Tomlinson - 3.6ypc
                          Marshall Faulk - 3.7ypc (2nd year) 3.0ypc (3rd year)
                          Marcus Allen - 3.8ypc (2nd year)
                          Thomas Jones - 3.3ypc
                          Ricky Williams - 3.5ypc

                          and I can go on. The point is all of those guys went on to have great careers..many of them hall of fame. Including your beloved LT. So to say that Moreno has no potential because of a 3.8ypc on a rookie season. He wore down near the end, he admitted it. His ypc was over 4 for most of the season until the end. He's a rookie and will adjust to the longer season.


                          With Cro the league's seen what they will get. An average corner cover, and a terrible tackler and undisciplined player with good athletic ability. That's it...its not going to change after 4 years in the NFL.

                          That UT article did say there could be other factors...but it was clear on one thing...the Cowboys weren't interested in Cromartie. I am sure if they were they would of discussed a way to make it happen. They didn't even want to talk about trading for a 3rd string RB.

                          Champs value is higher. Sure he is getting older, but he still plays at a high level. The guy had a great year. He tackles probably better than 99% of other corners in the league and rarely gets beat. Teams barely even throw at the guy which is a huge intangible that can't even be calculated in stats. Teams never fear Cro...they TARGET him for a reason.

                          It doesn't matter if Champ made the tackle in regard to Wards' TD. The fact is it wasn't his man in coverage...so it doesn't count as his stat for a TD. That is way different than a Safety like Weddle. Weddle was in a zone coverage and that was his area to cover with Rosario. Champ was in man-man coverage on Holmes. Your reaching desperately and comparing apples and oranges.
                          Again all those RB's proved themselves as their career went on. I'm also sure all of them had over 1200 yds from scrimmage and 10 or more tds, I haven't checked. But if they played as many games as Moreno I'm sure they did. Even if they didn't. Until Moreno proves he is anything more than a average at best if that rookie, then his value is little to none. Especially for a position that is easy to get.

                          Cro is better than ok in coverage. He's very good in coverage, allowing 3 tds in 06, 07 and 09 combined.

                          Champ was targeted 92 times in 09, Cromartie 79 times, Jammer 82 times. Cromartie has amazing ball skills, play maker ability, athletic ability and just his pure size and speed is huge to teams. He lacks maturity which is easy to develop and the will to be physical all the time. Which again is a teachable attribute.

                          For all we know SD asked for a 2nd and Choice for Cromartie. Not to mention Dal already has Jenkins and Newman. The fact that Shaun Phillips basically broke the story that DAL and SD was talking indicates the interest DAL still has in Cromartie.

                          You are overrating Champ. He's not the CB he used to be and without a pass rush he's very vulnerable in coverage and to big plays. He probably has 1 or 2 more years left at best playing at the level he played at in 09. No way does he have more value, that's just crazy. If he was 4 years younger, than yeah definitely.

                          Fact is Champ was in much better position in stopping Ward than Weddle was Rosario. Ward went to Champ's side of the field. Weddle broke off his guy while in coverage to try and deflect the pass to Rosario.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by ERoyal248 View Post
                            Knowshon only had 247 carries his rookie year, but agree with all of it.

                            http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/player...playerId=12516
                            typo - will correct!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by ChargersDivison View Post
                              Again all those RB's proved themselves as their career went on. I'm also sure all of them had over 1200 yds from scrimmage and 10 or more tds, I haven't checked. But if they played as many games as Moreno I'm sure they did. Even if they didn't. Until Moreno proves he is anything more than a average at best if that rookie, then his value is little to none. Especially for a position that is easy to get.

                              Cro is better than ok in coverage. He's very good in coverage, allowing 3 tds in 06, 07 and 09 combined.

                              Champ was targeted 92 times in 09, Cromartie 79 times, Jammer 82 times. Cromartie has amazing ball skills, play maker ability, athletic ability and just his pure size and speed is huge to teams. He lacks maturity which is easy to develop and the will to be physical all the time. Which again is a teachable attribute.

                              For all we know SD asked for a 2nd and Choice for Cromartie. Not to mention Dal already has Jenkins and Newman. The fact that Shaun Phillips basically broke the story that DAL and SD was talking indicates the interest DAL still has in Cromartie.

                              You are overrating Champ. He's not the CB he used to be and without a pass rush he's very vulnerable in coverage and to big plays. He probably has 1 or 2 more years left at best playing at the level he played at in 09. No way does he have more value, that's just crazy. If he was 4 years younger, than yeah definitely.

                              Fact is Champ was in much better position in stopping Ward than Weddle was Rosario. Ward went to Champ's side of the field. Weddle broke off his guy while in coverage to try and deflect the pass to Rosario.
                              I completely disagree with everything you said about Champ and Cro. I think Cro's value will be seen in the near future and I'll just offer you up some crow then.
                              Champ even in his old age was better than Cro this year:

                              Champ:
                              Thrown at 92 times - 53.3% completion
                              Avg. yds per catch - 12.1
                              Passes defended - 9
                              Missed tackles - 5
                              Yards allowed after catch - 186
                              Long allowed - 50yds
                              Int's - 3
                              TD's allowed - 0
                              Penalties Committed - 1
                              Opposing QB passer rating when throwing at him: 63.3
                              Total plays in 2009/10 season - 1037 (5th among all CBs!!!)

                              Cro
                              Thrown at 79 times - 57% completion
                              Avg. yds per catch - 12.1
                              Passes defended - 6
                              Missed tackles - 6 (not counting the awesome playoff one's)
                              Yards allowed after catch - 178
                              Long allowed - 49yds
                              Int's - 3
                              TD's allowed - 2
                              Penalties Committed - 3
                              Opposing QB passer rating when throwing at him: 70.9
                              Total plays in 2009/10 season - 895 (37th among CB's)


                              On to Moreno:
                              Moreno only started in 9 games. He had a total of 247 carries.... that's only 15 a game. You are acting like he was the featured back every game for a full season. Not too mention he had to play through some injuries. All I am saying that you guys are nuts if you are ALREADY saying that Moreno is no good and won't be. The guy had as good of rookie campaign as all those hall of famers...and no one is saying they were scrubs with a low ceiling.

                              You are just reaching...and your hatred for the Broncos is creating a huge bias against Moreno. You look at his stats objectively compared to those listed above in the rookie year...you can't say the things you did.

                              But here's the info you wanted:

                              Emmitt : 937 yards, 11 total TD's (241 attempts)
                              Payton: 679 yards, 7 total TD's (196 attempts)
                              LT: 1236 yards, 10 total TD's (339 attempts)
                              Faulk: 1078 yards, 14 total TD's (289 attempts) 2nd year, 587 yards, 7 total TD's (198 attempts) 3rd year
                              Allen: 1014 yards, 11 total TD's (266 attempts) 2nd year
                              Jones: 373 yards, 2 total TD's (112 attempts)
                              Williams: 884 yards, 2 total TD's (253 attempts)


                              So Moreno's numbers still stack up right with them:

                              Moreno: 947 yards, 9 total TD's, (247 attempts)

                              The fact of the matter is it was just like I said...he was a rookie that wore down in the last part of the season. My point in case:

                              Moreno through 12 games:
                              182 carries, 774 yards = 4.25 ypc

                              Moreno through last 4 games:
                              65 carries, 173 yards = 2.66 ypc

                              He will adjust to the longer season, work harder and easily break 1000 yards next season.
                              Last edited by Accordngs; 02-19-2010, 11:42 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by licence_to_kill View Post
                                hahahahahahaha
                                He was actually timed running a 4.46 and 4.48 at Georgia. He didn't run well at the combine. But he has decent burst on the field. No one claims he is Chris Johnson here.

                                The combine shows he was as quick in the short field as LT, as nimble through the cones, and much stronger having benched 7 more reps than baby LT.

                                Comment

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