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Tebow and Mathews. Two reaches but two good picks

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  • Tebow and Mathews. Two reaches but two good picks

    All of the below is based on perception obviously because none of these guys have even had an NFL practice yet.

    Let's look at Mathews first. Was he the 12th best player in this draft? Probably not. Was he the one player in this draft that has the potential to push the Chargers over the hump towards a Lombardi? IMHO, yes he was. A lot of the pundits are calling it a reach, but I hated to hear his name announced there. I knew the moment it happened that an already dammed good Rival team had gotten better in the one area they struggled most.

    When you're a team like the Chargers, who despite all the rhetoric that is spewed in this forum we all know is dangerously close to winning a SB, yet you have one glaring weakness you do what you have to to shore that weakness up. And, any Bronco fan that denies he has been a little nervous when the Playoffs have started the last few years, is lying. The Mathews pick makes them very scary in 2010, and I don't understand how any pundit can fault them for that pick.

    Once Spiller was gone, the Chargers had to get their guy. Spiller was the Chargers buffer, they knew that as long as he was on the board Mathews was safe. Mathews was going to be picked by the Chargers fairly close to Spiller no matter what position it was IMHO. The Chargers had their plan going in and I think they did exactly what they planned. So, did the Broncos.

    Now to Tebow. Was Tebow the 25th best football player in this draft? Hell no he was the BEST football player in the draft. We can argue all day long about wether or not his game translates to the NFL. But, there is not a fan of another team nor a pundit who knows for sure either way. If Tebow can translate his game to the Pros, watch out people.

    Was Tebow a risk? I say no. IMHO at worst we got a backup QB who will play for 10+ years and hold down the fort valiantly if the starter goes down and will always have 4 to 10 plays put in for him to contribute. There are a lot of 1st round QBs who would love to have that career. I realize that this is not what you want from the 25th pick in the draft, but I said that is worst case IMO. Best case scenario we get a franchise QB with intangibles that are off the charts and skill that catches up.

    I look at what we gave up as free stuff anyway. Every pick we gave up was a pick we didn't have a month before the draft. Thomas was our guy in the first all along I think. All the maneuvering we did was to gain picks so we could take Tebow and not lose an original pick. To me this is a well calculated move that in all reality isn't a gamble since we got the guy we always targeted in the first anyway.

    Will Tebow be a great pro? I don't know. Do you? No you don't. Has anyone who ever bet against Tebow ever really won? Not really. I am not going to try to be the first. I love what the kid brings to this team. We have a face of the franchise. A guy who will do and bring so many great things to this community. I hope someday another Lombardi will be one of those, but I can't see the future.

    Both our teams got better IMO and we both did it by drafting guys that many people said we reached for. I ask you: Should we really care what they say?
    Last edited by chazoe60; 04-25-2010, 01:20 PM.

  • #2
    I had to give this thread a look after seeing you had zero!

    I agree with you 100%

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    • #3
      I complete concur on both accounts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Nice post. It seems to me the that analysts and pundits have forgotten that the draft can be a game of smoke and mirrors. Which team is going to pick who? Is a team going to trade up and nab our guy? These are legitimate concerns of NFL teams.

        If San Diego had known for a fact Mathews would be there at 28 they would not have moved up, obviously. Likewise for Tebow in the 2nd round. In the end it is all about getting the guy you think will help your team win, even if it costs extra. I can't believe these jokers on NFLN and ESPN don't respect that.

        San Diego would be killed by fans and media alike if they don't get Spiller or Mathews. And I have a feeling Denver fans will shutter at the thought of not getting Tebow in the 1st, just a hunch.
        http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...uff/hillis.gif

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        • #5
          Another reason why you're my Favorite poster on this board.

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          • #6
            Great post Chaz, I think you hit the nail on the head as usual.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by chazoe60 View Post
              All of the below is based on perception obviously because none of these guys have even had an NFL practice yet.

              Let's look at Mathews first. Was he the 12th best player in this draft? Probably not. Was he the one player in this draft that has the potential to push the Chargers over the hump towards a Lombardi? IMHO, yes he was. A lot of the pundits are calling it a reach, but I hated to hear his name announced there. I knew the moment it happened that an already dammed good Rival team had gotten better in the one area they struggled most.

              When you're a team like the Chargers, who despite all the rhetoric that is spewed in this forum we all know is dangerously close to winning a SB, yet you have one glaring weakness you do what you have to to shore that weakness up. And, any Bronco fan that denies he has been a little nervous when the Playoffs have started the last few years, is lying. The Mathews pick makes them very scary in 2010, and I don't understand how any pundit can fault them for that pick.

              Once Spiller was gone, the Chargers had to get their guy. Spiller was the Chargers buffer, they knew that as long as he was on the board Mathews was safe. Mathews was going to be picked by the Chargers fairly close to Spiller no matter what position it was IMHO. The Chargers had their plan going in and I think they did exactly what they planned. So, did the Broncos.

              Now to Tebow. Was Tebow the 25th best football player in this draft? Hell no he was the BEST football player in the draft. We can argue all day long about wether or not his game translates to the NFL. But, there is not a fan of another team nor a pundit who knows for sure either way. If Tebow can translate his game to the Pros, watch out people.

              Was Tebow a risk? I say no. IMHO at worst we got a backup QB who will play for 10+ years and hold down the fort valiantly if the starter goes down and will always have 4 to 10 plays put in for him to contribute. There are a lot of 1st round QBs who would love to have that career. I realize that this is not what you want from the 25th pick in the draft, but I said that is worst case IMO. Best case scenario we get a franchise QB with intangibles that are off the charts and skill that catches up.

              I look at what we gave up as free stuff anyway. Every pick we gave up was a pick we didn't have a month before the draft. Thomas was our guy in the first all along I think. All the maneuvering we did was to gain picks so we could take Tebow and not lose an original pick. To me this is a well calculated move that in all reality isn't a gamble since we got the guy we always targeted in the first anyway.

              Will Tebow be a great pro? I don't know. Do you? No you don't. Has anyone who ever bet against Tebow ever really won? Not really. I am not going to try to be the first. I love what the kid brings to this team. We have a face of the franchise. A guy who will do and bring so many great things to this community. I hope someday another Lombardi will be one of those, but I can't see the future.

              Both our teams got better IMO and we both did it by drafting guys that many people said we reached for. I ask you: Should we really care what they say?
              good post but i disagree that the Mathews pick should be considered a reach or even comparable to the tebow reach, consider the bolded with my response.

              the decision to move up in the draft and get Mathews while giving up the second round pick is definitely questionable.

              but ask yourself this, was Mathews going to survive the first round? let alone make it to 28? were there any other teams willing to listen to AJ's offer?

              Mathews was the best running back in the draft that fit the profile SD was looking for, he really is a perfect fit.

              so no, i don't think it was a reach to draft Mathews at 12, Mathews will make an immediate impact and almost certainly walks into a starting position his rookie year.

              not only that but he is a 3 down back, he will be out there for a lot of snaps contributing to the running game as well as the passing game.

              he is not a project like tebow, he didnt have to change anything about his running style or the way he plays to adapt to the NFL like tebow did.

              actually the chargers run a lot of the same plays that the bulldogs ran so it will make the transition for him mthta much easier.

              the mathews "reach" made a lot of sense for the chargers and was a heck of a lot less risky than the tebow "reach".

              tebow on the other hand? i couldnt disagree more that its okay for him to be a backup "at worst" when you drafted him in the first round.

              you draft back up QB's in the 3rd and beyond, maybe even second if you have a plethora of draft picks.

              but you dont waste first round draft picks on players who might never be a starter let alone an elite player at his position.

              teams try to go for the sure thing in the first round, especially the QB position. if the broncos wanted a "project QB" that may or may not work out, they should have waited to get mccoy or clausen in the 3rd IMO

              instead not only did they waste one of their first round picks, they traded up.

              but who knows? both mathews and tebow might turn out to be probowlers and everyone who said these moves were "a reach" can eat their words.

              but in my mind, on paper....the tebow move was by far a bigger reach than mathews.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                good post but i disagree that the Mathews pick should be considered a reach or even comparable to the tebow reach, consider the bolded with my response.

                the decision to move up in the draft and get Mathews while giving up the second round pick is definitely questionable.

                but ask yourself this, was Mathews going to survive the first round? let alone make it to 28? were there any other teams willing to listen to AJ's offer?

                Mathews was the best running back in the draft that fit the profile SD was looking for, he really is a perfect fit.

                so no, i don't think it was a reach to draft Mathews at 12, Mathews will make an immediate impact and almost certainly walks into a starting position his rookie year.

                not only that but he is a 3 down back, he will be out there for a lot of snaps contributing to the running game as well as the passing game.

                he is not a project like tebow, he didnt have to change anything about his running style or the way he plays to adapt to the NFL like tebow did.

                actually the chargers run a lot of the same plays that the bulldogs ran so it will make the transition for him mthta much easier.

                the mathews "reach" made a lot of sense for the chargers and was a heck of a lot less risky than the tebow "reach".

                tebow on the other hand? i couldnt disagree more that its okay for him to be a backup "at worst" when you drafted him in the first round.

                you draft back up QB's in the 3rd and beyond, maybe even second if you have a plethora of draft picks.

                but you dont waste first round draft picks on players who might never be a starter let alone an elite player at his position.

                teams try to go for the sure thing in the first round, especially the QB position. if the broncos wanted a "project QB" that may or may not work out, they should have waited to get mccoy or clausen in the 3rd IMO


                instead not only did they waste one of their first round picks, they traded up.

                but who knows? both mathews and tebow might turn out to be probowlers and everyone who said these moves were "a reach" can eat their words.

                but in my mind, on paper....the tebow move was by far a bigger reach than mathews.
                I am really only referring to the bold stuff here as well. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think McD drafted Tebow as a backup. I feel that Tebow was drafted because McD and the rest of the FO guys feel he will be an elite qb in the league. Also, except for a very few players, most first round picks are developmental players. While they are expected to work out better, it is foolish to think that they will all make an immediate impact.

                I think that is where I really get bugged with Draft pick ratings. Somehow, and I am not sure when, first round picks were tagged as needing to be immediate impact players. While this does work out on occasion, for the most part, it really doesn't.

                When Rivers was drafted, did they start him right away? No, they gave him a couple of seasons to develop behind Brees even though the Chargers FO obviously thought he would not work out (which is why they took a qb in the first round) because they felt that Rivers, despite his talent, needed time to absorb the pro game.

                In the end, it is nice when first round picks work out, but it should not be expected to happen every single time. I also don't think that "on paper" Tebow was as much of a reach as you do. On paper, Tebow had amazing stats in college which I believe means he has as much chance of making it in the pros as possible.
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                Kyle Orton Army #140
                Team Tebow #140

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bigoosh View Post
                  I am really only referring to the bold stuff here as well. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think McD drafted Tebow as a backup. I feel that Tebow was drafted because McD and the rest of the FO guys feel he will be an elite qb in the league. Also, except for a very few players, most first round picks are developmental players. While they are expected to work out better, it is foolish to think that they will all make an immediate impact.

                  I think that is where I really get bugged with Draft pick ratings. Somehow, and I am not sure when, first round picks were tagged as needing to be immediate impact players. While this does work out on occasion, for the most part, it really doesn't.

                  When Rivers was drafted, did they start him right away? No, they gave him a couple of seasons to develop behind Brees even though the Chargers FO obviously thought he would not work out (which is why they took a qb in the first round) because they felt that Rivers, despite his talent, needed time to absorb the pro game.

                  In the end, it is nice when first round picks work out, but it should not be expected to happen every single time. I also don't think that "on paper" Tebow was as much of a reach as you do. On paper, Tebow had amazing stats in college which I believe means he has as much chance of making it in the pros as possible.
                  yeah i think they were both reaches, but the spiller pick really necessitated the reach for mathews, and he is who they really wanted badly, so they made it happen

                  tebow wasn't who denver really wanted as they picked a wr first but they really wanted him with their 2nd pick and they didn't want to roll the dice on getting him in the 2nd round.

                  so they jumped up, and to jump up you need a trade partner, and it's quite possible jumping up to 25 was the only place they could, maybe they attempted to jump to 30 but couldn't come to an agreement

                  you have to remember when you're jumping up for a player, there's many things to consider, the team drafting right in back of where you're moving up to,teams in between your next pick who you think may draft the player you want, and then of course finding a trade partner so that you can jump up there and get the player you want.


                  hell ya know what? maybe denver wasn't even seeking another 1st round pick and someone offerred them the deal

                  it's a two way street
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                    good post but i disagree that the Mathews pick should be considered a reach or even comparable to the tebow reach, consider the bolded with my response.

                    the decision to move up in the draft and get Mathews while giving up the second round pick is definitely questionable.

                    but ask yourself this, was Mathews going to survive the first round? let alone make it to 28? were there any other teams willing to listen to AJ's offer?

                    Mathews was the best running back in the draft that fit the profile SD was looking for, he really is a perfect fit.

                    so no, i don't think it was a reach to draft Mathews at 12, Mathews will make an immediate impact and almost certainly walks into a starting position his rookie year.

                    not only that but he is a 3 down back, he will be out there for a lot of snaps contributing to the running game as well as the passing game.

                    he is not a project like tebow, he didnt have to change anything about his running style or the way he plays to adapt to the NFL like tebow did.

                    actually the chargers run a lot of the same plays that the bulldogs ran so it will make the transition for him mthta much easier.

                    the mathews "reach" made a lot of sense for the chargers and was a heck of a lot less risky than the tebow "reach".

                    tebow on the other hand? i couldnt disagree more that its okay for him to be a backup "at worst" when you drafted him in the first round.

                    you draft back up QB's in the 3rd and beyond, maybe even second if you have a plethora of draft picks.

                    but you dont waste first round draft picks on players who might never be a starter let alone an elite player at his position.

                    teams try to go for the sure thing in the first round, especially the QB position. if the broncos wanted a "project QB" that may or may not work out, they should have waited to get mccoy or clausen in the 3rd IMO

                    instead not only did they waste one of their first round picks, they traded up.

                    but who knows? both mathews and tebow might turn out to be probowlers and everyone who said these moves were "a reach" can eat their words.

                    but in my mind, on paper....the tebow move was by far a bigger reach than mathews.
                    You need to read closer. What I was saying is that I don't consider Tebow to be a big risk like some people do because IMO he will never be worse than a backup who gets 4 to 10 designed plays a game. That's worst case scenario. There have been tons of first round QBs who never fare that well.

                    Don't take that to mean that is what I think will happen. I think and I know Josh McDaniels thinks Tebow will be a great starting QB, that's why they drafted him.

                    My point was that because of his Team First attitude and his willingness and desire to put in the work I don't think he will ever be worse than a backup. To me Tebow is like a QB version of a LT. Even if you draft a LT and he struggles a lot of times you can move him to the other side or even to guard. It's not ideal but at least you have options. Tebow will always have some role in the offense is my point, and that fact takes a lot of the risk away IMO.

                    The Raiders are a good example of my theory. Look at Gallery. As much as we like to rag on him as opposing fans, he has actually turned into a pretty decent guard. Sure, that's not what Al had in mind when he drafted him but at least they got some return. Russell on the other hand is a lost cause and nothing will be salvaged from that pick. I think, again in the worst case scenario Tebow is much closer to Gallery than he is to Russell.

                    If any of that makes sense? It does to me, but so do all of the Cohen Bros. movies, so..............

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                    • #11
                      Can I play? I'm one of those Gator people that is moving in and really like this pick by the Broncos. 95% of Gator Nation are now Broncos fans but you probably know that by now.

                      To the point. You will hear a lot of negative about Tebow. Fact is we have been hearing it for years. The Kipers and McShays of this world have vested interest in Tebow failing and why not they have been predicting it for over two years now. Pay no attention to these pundits, they only parrot what they have heard and really don't have any rational thought. Forget all the negative about Tebow as a passer. He has two real issues he needs to work on - reads and quick release. He ran an offense that was designed to let him run when he wanted to run and that was often. He would run as a first response when not seeing what he wanted. That's the read issue and why it's there. That will have to change to some degree in the NFL. Will he be successful? Who knows? Will Sam Bradford be successful? Who knows?

                      I see some that have equated first round pick in the draft as if they were sure bets for starting players. Might want to look at some statistics on that. The two are not related or at least the term sure thing and first round are not particularly at QB.

                      Now the good news. Denver got a warrior when they picked Tebow. Many believe the Denver coach is making a statement to his team about team and character by letting the resent #15 go and bringing in the new #15. I honestly don't know if that is the case or not - I just don't know enough about the Broncos at this point. The truth though is that Tebow has plenty of arm strength and has plenty of accuracy. This is from someone that has seen every pass he has thrown in a game the last 4 years. He will need to adjust as any rookie QB in the NFL will have to do.

                      I agree in large part with the OP of this thread. To add additional input you might want to take a look at some cold hard facts that will give you some food for thought when you hear the pundits ragging on Tebow.



                      I hope this helps and thanks for letting me play!
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nimrod View Post
                        Can I play? I'm one of those Gator people that is moving in and really like this pick by the Broncos. 95% of Gator Nation are now Broncos fans but you probably know that by now.

                        To the point. You will hear a lot of negative about Tebow. Fact is we have been hearing it for years. The Kipers and McShays of this world have vested interest in Tebow failing and why not they have been predicting it for over two years now. Pay no attention to these pundits, they only parrot what they have heard and really don't have any rational thought. Forget all the negative about Tebow as a passer. He has two real issues he needs to work on - reads and quick release. He ran an offense that was designed to let him run when he wanted to run and that was often. He would run as a first response when not seeing what he wanted. That's the read issue and why it's there. That will have to change to some degree in the NFL. Will he be successful? Who knows? Will Sam Bradford be successful? Who knows?

                        I see some that have equated first round pick in the draft as if they were sure bets for starting players. Might want to look at some statistics on that. The two are not related or at least the term sure thing and first round are not particularly at QB.

                        Now the good news. Denver got a warrior when they picked Tebow. Many believe the Denver coach is making a statement to his team about team and character by letting the resent #15 go and bringing in the new #15. I honestly don't know if that is the case or not - I just don't know enough about the Broncos at this point. The truth though is that Tebow has plenty of arm strength and has plenty of accuracy. This is from someone that has seen every pass he has thrown in a game the last 4 years. He will need to adjust as any rookie QB in the NFL will have to do.

                        I agree in large part with the OP of this thread. To add additional input you might want to take a look at some cold hard facts that will give you some food for thought when you hear the pundits ragging on Tebow.



                        I hope this helps and thanks for letting me play!
                        Welcome to the boards
                        Great post and thanks for the link, that really is interesting stuff and has only added to my belief that he will be a star in this league.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jcdavey View Post
                          yeah i think they were both reaches, but the spiller pick really necessitated the reach for mathews, and he is who they really wanted badly, so they made it happen

                          tebow wasn't who denver really wanted as they picked a wr first but they really wanted him with their 2nd pick and they didn't want to roll the dice on getting him in the 2nd round.
                          so they jumped up, and to jump up you need a trade partner, and it's quite possible jumping up to 25 was the only place they could, maybe they attempted to jump to 30 but couldn't come to an agreement

                          you have to remember when you're jumping up for a player, there's many things to consider, the team drafting right in back of where you're moving up to,teams in between your next pick who you think may draft the player you want, and then of course finding a trade partner so that you can jump up there and get the player you want.


                          hell ya know what? maybe denver wasn't even seeking another 1st round pick and someone offerred them the deal

                          it's a two way street
                          The only reason they picked Demaryius Thomas first was because Baltimore and Dallas were both sitting before them and they despertley need a WR. As you saw Dez went to Dallas and after that it could of been Thomas going to Baltimore so Denver had to take a WR first so they wouldn't get him. The teams after that didn't need a QB let alone Tebow so it was good strategy.

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                          • #14
                            On the surface, we could say that Tebow was a 'reach'. The problem is that you can't go by what you see on the surface. All that trading down and then the move up created the picks needed to get Tebow. The Broncos got their first round pick AND created another in order to get a guy who is, indeed, somewhat of a project. I wouldn't exactly call that a bad strategy. It was confusing to watch play out, but the end result was what I believe McDaniels wanted. So, all in all, not bad.

                            Mathews cost us a little more than I would have liked, but if we didn't pull the trigger on that deal, he would have gone to Houston or someplace like Seattle. For us, it was a good move. I agree with Chaz, I think in regard to these two players, the moves to acquire them were appropriate.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Amari24 View Post
                              The only reason they picked Demaryius Thomas first was because Baltimore and Dallas were both sitting before them and they despertley need a WR. As you saw Dez went to Dallas and after that it could of been Thomas going to Baltimore so Denver had to take a WR first so they wouldn't get him. The teams after that didn't need a QB let alone Tebow so it was good strategy.
                              i'm glad you guys didn't draft dez, not because he's better, he's probably a bust, but because i didn't want to see some of my charger fans make fun of the irregular heartbeat, i know nfc east fans are already doing that to cowboys fans, it's pretty lame
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