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Best most elite QB taken in the 2004 Draft..its unanimous

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Nordstrom View Post
    lol at all you hopping on Big Dumb perverts bandwagon, he's only got rings because of his defense. And Eli, lol. I'll keep Rivers over these two chumps.

    Rivers is the man, him winning one ring in SD would mean more than Big Dumb and Eli's rings combined.
    Didn't the Chargers have the #1 ranked defense last year? If not, then real close!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
      Didn't the Chargers have the #1 ranked defense last year? If not, then real close!
      in terms of yards given up yes, they had the #1 defense.

      but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the chargers ST's woes had a lot to do with that.

      getting 4 punts blocked in your red zone, giving up kick returns for Td's, and leading the league (by far) in opponent starting field position all attributed to less yards given up.

      whats much Moore telling is the amount of points given up by the chargers defense/ST unit.

      this is why i never use yards as a way to measure the success of an offense or defense (even though scoring stats can be skewed for the same reasons as well).

      scoring is all that matters and the chargers scoring defense wasn't close to #1 in the league.

      their defense played well for sure, but its kind of hard to prevent the other team from scoring when they start in your red zone.

      however, it is easier to prevent a lot of yards from piling up. its really just common sense but i suppose you donk fans have to hate on rivers whenever possible, even if it is out of ignorance to the topic.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Nordstrom View Post
        lol at all you hopping on Big Dumb perverts bandwagon, he's only got rings because of his defense.
        Ok. So what does Rivers need to win one?

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        • #49
          The best most elite QB can't overcome a bad ST's unit? They had the #1 defense and #1 offense this last season, and have had a stupidly high number of Pro Bowlers over the last few seasons, and not even a SB appearance... All the truly elite QB's in the league have managed to do much more with much less.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by DevilSpawn View Post
            Ok. So what does Rivers need to win one?
            here is my opinion on it.

            he and the chargers need to get hot at the right time (while staying relatively healthy), not just at the end of the regular season but in the playoffs as well.

            rivers doesn't need a dominant defense or running game to win a SB in my opinion.

            its no different than Peyton manning or brees, those guys has a few post season short comings before they finally got hot at the right time and won their rings (both without great defenses).

            even Eli has shown us that a mediocre QB can get hot at the right time and win. the key is to consistently get to the playoffs to give yourself a chance.

            many people doubt he can get to a SB based on the fact that he hasn't been to one yet, but i can also tell you that opinion has been stated about many QB's in the past who did eventually get their ring(like manning and brees).

            because lets be honest here, Ben has had some playoff winning performances that were worse than rivers' performances in his playoff losses.

            it is arguable who is the better overall QB between Ben and rivers only because Ben is a proven winner and has been clutch at times in the playoffs while rivers hasnt had that "championship moment" as you put it earlier.

            but as far as overall performance at their position, there is no debate there in my opinion.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by baphamet View Post
              because lets be honest here, Ben has had some playoff winning performances that were worse than rivers' performances in his playoff losses.
              True, but I believe Ben came up clutch in the end. That’s his rep, he can suck for a whole game but have that one drive at the end to win the game.

              I agree with most of the rest, but I think a strong run performance in the playoffs will help him, especially if the Chargers are playing against a team that can score at will. A good Charger running game can take the ball out of the opposing teams' hands.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hoserman117 View Post
                The best most elite QB can't overcome a bad ST's unit? They had the #1 defense and #1 offense this last season, and have had a stupidly high number of Pro Bowlers over the last few seasons, and not even a SB appearance... All the truly elite QB's in the league have managed to do much more with much less.
                Actually we had the 10th ranked defense when you go buy what counts the most. Last time I checked they determined the winner of the game by who scores the most points not who put up the most yards. So in that respect that Chargers had the 10th ranked Defense while once again Pitt was no. 1.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by NFLfan..MLBzzzz View Post
                  Actually we had the 10th ranked defense when you go buy what counts the most. Last time I checked they determined the winner of the game by who scores the most points not who put up the most yards. So in that respect that Chargers had the 10th ranked Defense while once again Pitt was no. 1.
                  Ya I can see your argument there. Number 10 out of 32 is right there at the bottom of the league.

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                  • #54
                    the real question isnt if big ben and eli would have won a sb in sd by now

                    its if the chargers would have had brees in 2006 instead of rivers they would have won the superbowl. that was when the team hit its prime and unfortunately it was without brees and with rivers in his first year starting


                    if that team went 14-2 and both of those losses by a field goal, with rivers starting for the first time imagine what it would have been like with brees

                    brees would have won the sb that year and it makes me sick he was gone and won his sb with the saints instead of in 06 in sd
                    sigpic Crushing internet tuffguys one at a time!!!

                    Originally Posted by BroncoLefty
                    Look Steeler fans....we know. We all know about the rings. We know about the past, ok? All you guys seem to want to do is talk about the past, I dont get it. The Patriots share this problem with you as well. Nobody cares-stop living in the past.<---- typical bronco forum hypocrite.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                      in terms of yards given up yes, they had the #1 defense.

                      but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the chargers ST's woes had a lot to do with that.

                      getting 4 punts blocked in your red zone, giving up kick returns for Td's, and leading the league (by far) in opponent starting field position all attributed to less yards given up.

                      whats much Moore telling is the amount of points given up by the chargers defense/ST unit.

                      this is why i never use yards as a way to measure the success of an offense or defense (even though scoring stats can be skewed for the same reasons as well).

                      scoring is all that matters and the chargers scoring defense wasn't close to #1 in the league.

                      their defense played well for sure, but its kind of hard to prevent the other team from scoring when they start in your red zone.

                      however, it is easier to prevent a lot of yards from piling up. its really just common sense but i suppose you donk fans have to hate on rivers whenever possible, even if it is out of ignorance to the topic.
                      They were number 10 in the league in points per game allowed and if you take away the TDs the special teams gave up the ppg ave drops beside I am pretty sure you have said it yourself..

                      Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                      The Chargers had the number one defense and offense in the NFL. Our only weakness was our horrid special teams and we just hired one of the best ST coaches in the league.

                      Can't have it both ways so which is it?
                      Originally posted by baphamet
                      are you talking career or right now? because i don't see how you can say manning is top 5 even healthy.dude will never be a top 5 QB again, he is done.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                        They were number 10 in the league in points per game allowed and if you take away the TDs the special teams gave up the ppg ave drops beside I am pretty sure you have said it yourself..




                        Can't have it both ways so which is it?
                        thanks man, that is what i have ben trying to get across to you donk fans for quite some time now.

                        see, you are thinking i am blaming just the defense for giving up so many points

                        am i trying to have it both ways? no, i am trying to explain the effect ST's had on our team last year.

                        like i said previously, its kind of hard to prevent the other team from scoring when they start in your red zone.

                        it also puts much more pressure on your defense to prevent the other team from scoring when your opponent leads he league in average starting field position.

                        do you not see how that would contribute to having fewer overall yards given up? come on beagle, i know you are just trying to talk smack but this isn't a hard concept to grasp.

                        the chargers defense was good last year but not the best defense In the league, there is a reason they gave up so few yards but not so few points.

                        try and think about if for just a second.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          A "joke" is not even playing in a Super Bowl with arguably the best team in the NFL for at least 3 or 4 years.
                          The argument is over when a team loses in a single loss play off structure like there is in the NFL.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          A "joke" is having the #1 ranked defense on your side, playing in what many call "the weakest division in football" and not even making the play-offs.
                          Would you honestly say SD had the best defense in football last year? I wouldn't, not even top 5. Our division has been improving for some time now, 3 teams at 0.500 or better. There's a whole lot of parity in the league these days, it's a good thing.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          A "joke is playing with arguably the best RB of all-time, and probably the best TE of all time, and never getting to the dance.
                          Tomlinson is not even close to being the best RB of all time. As much as I love Gates, until he starts taking down Gonzo's records you're crowning him FAR too soon.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          These jokes, unlike the Eli one, are funny!
                          Eli is a joke to his own team.

                          If I remember correctly there was a poll on NFL.com just a couple of days ago (I mentioned it in a previous post and I've looked but I cannot find a poll archive for NFL.com). Asking which 2004 QB would you rather have on your team.

                          47% for Rivers
                          42% for Roethlisberger (sp?)
                          11% for Manning

                          About 35,000 people voted and I found the results VERY interesting considering the fanbases.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          Rivers' window is shut, he had his chance and now he will never get to feel what the two superior QB's of that class felt.
                          Actually, as long as Rivers continues to play at a high level that window remains stuck open.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          Rivers has the stats...bravo...but Ben and Eli play in much more conservative offenses, and in MUCH, MUCH, MUCH tougher divisions.
                          A conservative offense also means they don't rely on the QB as much. I will agree with you on the AFC North being a "tough as nails" division, each team in there is smash mouth which means they have SD's number. The NFC East however, I wouldn't agree with. A couple of years ago sure, but these days, no dice. I would much rather play the NFC East than any other division except the NFC West.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          Also, anyone comparing Rivers to Marino should be smacked. Marino got to the dance with way inferior talent around him, and that's a fact.
                          I'm not going to lie, this comment made me laugh. Not only do you condone and propose violence for someone voicing their opinion about a sport, you want it to happen to someone who just might be right. There are more than a few things that are eerily similar. As for me I'm going to wait until Rivers retires before I compare the two.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          I hate all three of these guys with a fire-breathing passion. But when you look at the bodies of work, it clearly goes; 1. Ben 2. Eli 3. Phyllis
                          You clearly hate one of them the most, I'll give you a hint. You spelled his name wrong on purpose. I'm glad objectivity didn't get in the way of your post, if it had I'd have lost my sense of smug superiority. Regardless, when comparing these QB's, you can make them come out in any order you wish as it all depends on what the criteria are.

                          Originally posted by KWHIT97 View Post
                          Sorry Charger fans but facts are facts. Until he actually does something with all of that talent around him (which is dwindling down fast) he will never be anything more than a fantasy stud! :thumb:
                          You're right, the talent on the Chargers is dwindling fast, yet Rivers actually seems to get better every year, funny how top tier QB's can do that. Facts? You used the word "arguably" a bit too much to call some of what you said "facts." Aside from that you base what's left of your argument on statistics, (which can and DO lie in this case) slander and bias.

                          If you watched some Charger games and dropped the attitude I think we could have some great discussions. Until then, I'm sorry.

                          Last edited by Puddleglum; 06-12-2011, 10:22 AM.
                          sigpic

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                            thanks man, that is what i have ben trying to get across to you donk fans for quite some time now.

                            see, you are thinking i am blaming just the defense for giving up so many points

                            am i trying to have it both ways? no, i am trying to explain the effect ST's had on our team last year.

                            like i said previously, its kind of hard to prevent the other team from scoring when they start in your red zone.

                            it also puts much more pressure on your defense to prevent the other team from scoring when your opponent leads he league in average starting field position.

                            do you not see how that would contribute to having fewer overall yards given up? come on beagle, i know you are just trying to talk smack but this isn't a hard concept to grasp.

                            the chargers defense was good last year but not the best defense In the league, there is a reason they gave up so few yards but not so few points.

                            try and think about if for just a second.
                            Its really hard to pick. Eli is definately out of the discussion. Rivers stats are way prettier but Ben has come up big in some big games. If you compare just their last playoff appearances which one would you rather give the ball to at the end of the game? Just to be fair tho if I had to build a team around on of the two it would be Rivers. And plus all you hear about Rivers in the media is good stuff. Ben not so much.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Jer_ber73 View Post
                              Its really hard to pick. Eli is definately out of the discussion. Rivers stats are way prettier but Ben has come up big in some big games. If you compare just their last playoff appearances which one would you rather give the ball to at the end of the game? Just to be fair tho if I had to build a team around on of the two it would be Rivers. And plus all you hear about Rivers in the media is good stuff. Ben not so much.
                              that is fair.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Puddleglum View Post



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