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**ebsoria** · 03-15-2014, 02:29 PM

Howzabout we move it to smack since that's exactly where this thread is headed......?

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 02:32 PM

Lol didn't think it was smack, not saying anything bad about the Broncos. Just pointing out how ridiculous their gradings are. Does anyone truly believe that Julius Thomas was not a top 20 TE or that Talib wasn't a top 50 corner?

**Houshmazode** · 03-15-2014, 02:34 PM

You're calling out other posters. It's smack.

**broncos SB2010** · 03-15-2014, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by bgpatsfan View Post

Didn't know where to post this, so I thought I would make it its own thread. I know Crash loves his PFF grades but after reading their rankings from 2013, I have to say that they hold no credibility whatsoever.

And no injuries play no part of the equation (Von was their top ranked 4-3 OLB and he played the least amount of snaps by a significant margin Gronk was the 2nd TE despite only playing 6 games).

Questionable Gradings:

- Aqib Talib, a top 5 corner in the league, was ranked 58th in league behind the likes of Kyle Arrington (#19), Will Blackmon (a special teamer at #22), Sean Smith (50), and Asante Samuel at 57. According to PFF, Talib was the third best corner on New England by a considerable margin last year behind both Arrington (19) and Logan Ryan (30)!! BS!

- Adrian Peterson was the 11th best RB, behind Andre Ellington?

- Tom Brady the 8th best QB behind Ryan Tannehill at 7?! Brady had worse weapons yet had better stats across the board. Ryan Tannehill and Josh McCowan in front of Brady?

- Chandler Jones at #23 for 4-3 DE. Best defensive end on the pats. Ranked behind Robert Ayers (#14)? Hell Robert Ayers was even ranked ahead of Shaun Phillips and Chris Long. Sorry, But Justin Tuck and Demarcus Ware have no business in the top 10 of 43 ends last season at 7 and 8 respectively.

- Julius Thomas the #24 TE. Ben Harstock (#4)!! Jacob Tamme (13), Taylor Thompson (Who is that at 21?)

- Danny Amendola (34) ranked above Victor Cruz (37) Riley Cooper (41) and Vincent Jackson (46)! What?! Not to mention Marvin Jones (15) and Nate Washington (16) were ranked ahead of AJ Green (17)! Larry Fitz (12) ranked ahead of Josh Gordon (13)!

- Devin McCourty as the top safety in the league by a considerable margin (his final score was +18.7). Earl Thomas comes in at #9 with +7.5. Apparently, Troy Polamalu is a top 5 safety too ahead Weddle and Byrd. Troy was horrible this season.

Btw Will Hill of the NYG was the second best safety in the league according to PFF.

Here are the rankings: http://imgur.com/a/DEkM8

So PFF doesn't think Josh Gordon is a top 10 receiver? But Eddie Royal (25) is a top 25 receiver?!

preaching to the choir. Some of their stats/rankings are ok...the ones I really question are the Oline.

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Houshmazode View Post

You're calling out other posters. It's smack.

Lol like that doesn't happen in every thread

**Houshmazode** · 03-15-2014, 02:43 PM

Too bad.

**uknflfan** · 03-15-2014, 03:05 PM

Well, to be fair, in your initial criticisms of PFF injuries DID play a part. Yet to acknowledge you were completely wrong on those previous assertions by the way......

Nevertheless, I can see you've gone through other examples to try and prove your thesis (from a now subjective position). The trouble is I think you have misunderstood what PFF grades are meant to be and how they are meant to be used.

Here is the biggest problem with your argument; their rankings are not designed to be an exact reflection of which are the 'better players' in terms of evaluating them in a vacuum. PFF grades are incredibly useful and tell us a lot about how a player is performing in various areas within their team/system. However, the rankings (which are really just a list of overall grades) are not somehow gospel; they are not a head to toe list of the best players and PFF graders themselves would never claim them to be so.

PFF grades are the best advanced metric we have available to us and are an invaluable resource. However, they should not simply be taken at face value without being put into context (like any other statistic). They can be used as a part of a larger argument when discussing players and what their strengths/weaknesses are. You will notice that PFF employees don't think for example that Talib is a worse player than those you listed. Let's go through the examples you listed (bearing in mind, this is off the top of my head, having not seen loads of some of these players):

As for Talib, if you break it down, he had a tremendous grading before his injury, it was after his injury when he began to suffer. He was not playing as well and therefore suffered in his grade. You must also bear in mind that Talib follows the best receiver around the field, none of the other corners you mentioned do that, hence his level of competition is MUCH higher. This also hurts his grade.

Adrian Peterson faces 8 or 9 man boxes most of the time, unlike somebody like Ellington. The Vikings OL wasn't quite as good in pass blocking as last year when they went to the playoffs. In my opinion, AP was trying to do too much this year, looking for the home run hitter every time because he knew his QB wasn't going to do anything. Not to mention, oppositions focus completely on AP when playing the VIkes. They don't do that with Ellington when playing the Cards.

Your reference to 'Brady's weapons' and 'stats' indicate your misunderstanding of PFF. The grades don't take into account his lack of receivers or his stats. You don't get +1 for having lost Welker or +5 every time you throw a TD. His lack of receivers is a factor that we must consider when looking at the grades (giving them context) in order to fully understand and explain them. I would also suggest his grade wasn't quite as good as you might think because his deep ball accuracy was poor this season, as evidenced in the AFCCG. Again, nobody is suggesting McCown is a better QB than Brady.

Robert Ayers didn't have that large a snap count this season, but he was very effective versus the run, hence his high grade. He also was able to get some pressure at times, and generally its fair to say had his best season so far (IMO). I honestly don't see a huge difference between him and Phillips on their play last season. Phillips played a lot more and had a lot more pass rushing snaps, an area where (despite his sacks) he didn't actually provide consistent pressure. Had Ayers been in on that many pass rush snaps, his rush grade would have been worse. As for Chris Long, Justin Tuck and Demarcus Ware, I have to say I didn't see much of any of them last season. However, in simply looking more closely at the grades, I can see Long was hurt by the penalties he gave up - this hurt his grade.

The TE's - very simple - blocking. Julius Thomas gets dinged big time for his poor run blocking. Meanwhile, Ben Hartstock is one of the best run blocking TE's in the league (and that's how Carolina used him). He rarely went out on pass routes, so wouldn't have received poor grades for this area of his play (I'm sure if he had been used as a receiving TE like JT, he would have an awful grade). Coaches play to their players strengths.

I could go on but I think this post is oong enough already!! Besides, the main point is - PFF is not ranking the best players in the league in a vacuum. They are not saying 'we would rather have this guy on our team over that guy, because his overall grade was slightly better'. You have to understand how players are used by coaches, what is around them, who they are up against and other such factors along with PFF grades to get the most out of them. They are in fact, very useful (as we don't all have time to sit and watch 16 lots of game film every week!)

**crash123go** · 03-15-2014, 03:22 PM

Sometimes I wonder if these pats fans can read??? We don't want them here.

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by crash123go View Post

Sometimes I wonder if these pats fans can read??? We don't want them here.

Sounds like a pretty big generalization, I didn't know you spoke for everyone of the hundreds of posters that come to this site. You must be pretty sensitive today.

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 03:57 PM

@uknflfan I understand what you are trying to say, but like you said the major flaw of PFF is that it fails to give ANY kind of context to the stats they are putting out there.

I know it doesn't say that Tannehill is better than Brady, but he scored out higher which is extremely interesting to me because Tannehill was average to below average in his second year. For example how is Nick Foles graded out so much worse than Tannehill? When Foles has much superior stat lines and was playing out of his mind (22 TDs 0 picks)?

Talib was dominant through six weeks, but got injured. He still played very well after the injury and never really got burned. He and DRC played a comparable number of snaps and DRC had a higher grade in coverage. Talib actually have a -5 something grade in coverage; doesn't really make that much sense to me.

**LightningRodBob** · 03-15-2014, 04:56 PM

Much better than the PFF Grades (which are very subjective and misleading) are the PFF Signature Stats,which tell a better story and are based on numbers rather than a subjective opinion.

I do look at the grades sometimes but mostly take them with a grain of salt. But I love the Signature Stats.

For example if you look at the grades, Talib is the #58 CB. But if you look at the signature stats for cornerbacks we can see that Talib was 18th in QB rating against, and 12th in coverage snaps/reception, which means he is one of the best in the league at denying completions on a per-snap basis. And, he was 11th in the league in coverage snaps/target, which means he's one of the least targeted CB's in the league on a per snap basis. Those are all positives. And then when you apply even more context (the fact that he was playing through injuries after a certain point, and that he follows the other team's best receiver around the field) you get a clearer picture.

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by LightningRodBob View Post

Much better than the PFF Grades (which are very subjective and misleading) are the PFF Signature Stats,which tell a better story and are based on numbers rather than a subjective opinion.

I do look at the grades sometimes but mostly take them with a grain of salt. But I love the Signature Stats.

For example if you look at the grades, Talib is the #58 CB. But if you look at the signature stats for cornerbacks we can see that Talib was 18th in QB rating against, and 12th in coverage snaps/reception, which means he is one of the best in the league at denying completions on a per-snap basis. And, he was 11th in the league in coverage snaps/target, which means he's one of the least targeted CB's in the league on a per snap basis. Those are all positives. And then when you apply even more context (the fact that he was playing through injuries after a certain point, and that he follows the other team's best receiver around the field) you get a clearer picture.

Thanks for the clarification! Finally a solid explanation.

:thumb:

**CanDB** · 03-15-2014, 05:43 PM

Anyone who hangs around another team's site this much is clearly envious, or has a lack of dialogue with the home team fans, OR has too much time. If you envy us, that's cool. We understand.

**bgpatsfan** · 03-15-2014, 07:20 PM

Or I just like talking football with other fans other than Patriot fans...

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