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  • #31
    Originally posted by baphamet View Post
    IMO brady is the best ever but i do get it when people talk about the system and benefiting from having the best coach ever.
    I don't think anyone can ever successfully argue who the greatest player of all time is, too many eras, too many variables and too many categories. Are we judging championships? Because then Terry Bradshaw is one of the best ever (he's not!). Stats? Cause that would say Manning is the best ever. Wins? Cause that overvalues a QBs role in many situations.

    I think the more accurate thing is to argue who is in the group of the 5-10 best ever, but trying to argue one over the other is a fool's errand. But I would agree that Brady is in that group of 10.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TommyBrady12 View Post
      Use your common sense. 162 million NFL fans are not going to vote on any poll. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to even find 100K fans vote in any poll. The poll is open to EVERYONE around the country - it's not a NE fan site but an extremely popular NFL fan site.
      Really hard pressed ? lol one google search http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/pos...eatest-qb-ever and there are actually 3 different polls with over 100000 lol

      (Total votes: 122,060)
      and would you loook at th map..The only place any one disagres with it? The New England area http://www.espn.com/espn/fp/flashPol...pollId/4550089
      Last edited by Beagle; 12-08-2016, 08:06 PM.
      Originally posted by baphamet
      are you talking career or right now? because i don't see how you can say manning is top 5 even healthy.dude will never be a top 5 QB again, he is done.

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      • #33


        I just noticed the new thread title.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
          I don't think anyone can ever successfully argue who the greatest player of all time is, too many eras, too many variables and too many categories. Are we judging championships? Because then Terry Bradshaw is one of the best ever (he's not!). Stats? Cause that would say Manning is the best ever. Wins? Cause that overvalues a QBs role in many situations.

          I think the more accurate thing is to argue who is in the group of the 5-10 best ever, but trying to argue one over the other is a fool's errand. But I would agree that Brady is in that group of 10.
          it's just fun to debate and nobody is right or wrong.

          years ago (when cutler was in denver) i made a thread here in the smack section where i created a point system formula for judging QB's. it included a lot of things like personal performance(stats), winning in the playoffs, winning in general, 4th quarter comebacks, game winning drives, certain intangibles.....ETC.

          it is true what you say, there are a lot of variables. but the one thing that is constant no matter what era you are talking about, it's winning. i would make the argument that winning is even more of a QB stat now than it was in any other era due to the new QB driven NFL of today.

          so anyway, if you take a QB that has a performance resume in the top 5 and he is also the most winningest QB of all time (with the best winning percentage in the regular season as well) with 4 rings?

          it would be very difficult for me to justify someone else being better than that. but then again, everyone uses different criteria and all the different variables carry a different weight depending on the person.
          Last edited by baphamet; 12-08-2016, 09:30 PM.
          sigpic

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          • #35
            Originally posted by baphamet View Post
            it's just fun to debate and nobody is right or wrong.

            years ago (when cutler was in denver) i made a thread here in the smack section where i created a point system formula for judging QB's. it included a lot of things like personal performance(stats), winning in the playoffs, winning in general, 4th quarter comebacks, game winning drives, certain intangibles.....ETC.

            it is true what you say, there are a lot of variables. but the one thing that is constant no matter what era you are talking about, it's winning. i would make the argument that winning is even more of a QB stat now than it was in any other era due to the new QB driven NFL of today.

            so anyway, if you take a QB that has a performance resume in the top 5 and he is also the most winningest QB of all time (with the best winning percentage in the regular season as well) with 4 rings?

            it would be very difficult for me to justify someone else being better than that. but then again, everyone uses different criteria and all the different variables carry a different weight depending on the person.
            And I would argue that winning is the most overrated of the categories, just because so many variables go into it. You could pass for 100 yards, fail to move your offense at all and generate 0 points on offense and get the win if the defense scores. At the same time you could pass for 500 yards, 7 touchdowns but lose if your defense is awful (think of the Chefs in the playoffs around 2003). You could start a game and play 1 quarter, and leave, but get the W.

            Granted most QBs do contribute to wins, but I think overall it's an overrated stats, because of the need for the D and specials teams to do their parts to get that W.

            And the eras make it so tough to compare, just about every offense is a run and shoot offense these days. Look at Dan Fouts as an example, his career year in 1981 saw him finish with 4,802 yards passing that would have placed him second last year, still obviously very respectable. But the second person behind him in 81 passed for 3,912 yards. That would have been 15th last year. How do you compare QBs between eras when things are skewed like that? Looking at Brady and Manning, their careers spanned the two different eras and their stats show that, of course they're two players who helped create the new era.

            I know it all just for fun, and really it does come down to the eye test, who people see and think was the best. And of course that will also be heavily skewed by who you cheer for, Pats fans view Brady in a different light than fans of a rival. But of course a true mark of a great player, is when the average fan of a team's biggest rival can say that a certain player was a really great player.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
              And I would argue that winning is the most overrated of the categories, just because so many variables go into it. You could pass for 100 yards, fail to move your offense at all and generate 0 points on offense and get the win if the defense scores. At the same time you could pass for 500 yards, 7 touchdowns but lose if your defense is awful (think of the Chefs in the playoffs around 2003). You could start a game and play 1 quarter, and leave, but get the W.

              Granted most QBs do contribute to wins, but I think overall it's an overrated stats, because of the need for the D and specials teams to do their parts to get that W.

              And the eras make it so tough to compare, just about every offense is a run and shoot offense these days. Look at Dan Fouts as an example, his career year in 1981 saw him finish with 4,802 yards passing that would have placed him second last year, still obviously very respectable. But the second person behind him in 81 passed for 3,912 yards. That would have been 15th last year. How do you compare QBs between eras when things are skewed like that? Looking at Brady and Manning, their careers spanned the two different eras and their stats show that, of course they're two players who helped create the new era.

              I know it all just for fun, and really it does come down to the eye test, who people see and think was the best. And of course that will also be heavily skewed by who you cheer for, Pats fans view Brady in a different light than fans of a rival. But of course a true mark of a great player, is when the average fan of a team's biggest rival can say that a certain player was a really great player.
              winning might be an overrated stat if that was the only variable you were considering when judging QB's. but again, when you have the most wins, 4 rings, and you have top 5 all time numbers on top of that?

              it's not like brady is just playing above average or good on a great team every year. he's dominating at his position playing at an elite level year in and year out and winning more than anyone else ever has.

              some people think winning is a team stat and irrelevant to a QB but i ask those same people to look at the majority of teams that are usually bad every year and look at their current QB situation.

              judging QB's by winning alone is dumb and ya there are people that do that.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by baphamet View Post
                winning might be an overrated stat if that was the only variable you were considering when judging QB's. but again, when you have the most wins, 4 rings, and you have top 5 all time numbers on top of that?

                it's not like brady is just playing above average or good on a great team every year. he's dominating at his position playing at an elite level year in and year out and winning more than anyone else ever has.

                some people think winning is a team stat and irrelevant to a QB but i ask those same people to look at the majority of teams that are usually bad every year and look at their current QB situation.

                judging QB's by winning alone is dumb and ya there are people that do that.
                But using your own team in that example, Rivers has been a great QB during his career (I can admit it, although I don't think he's a great QB anymore, but I digress) and then you look at the Chargers wins during his career. Aaron Rodgers is another example, although he has a ring. QBs need help to win, that's why I tend to discount the W/L record when judging a QB.

                No doubt Tom Brady is a great QB, one of the best of all-time, but I look at the 4 rings, and at least 2 of them came before he became a truly elite level QB, that doesn't mean they're worthless, he's got 4 rings! But when I think of it that way it makes me think of Terry Bradshaw (a mediocre QB who was carried to 4 Super Bowl rings and ended up in the HOF because of being carried to them) so I can't fully credit the rings to his (Brady) greatness.

                But again it gets back to the eye test and personal bias, I think Steve Young was one of the greatest QBs I've ever seen, but he wasn't a starter for as long as other greats, and he "only" won one Super Bowl.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                  But using your own team in that example, Rivers has been a great QB during his career (I can admit it, although I don't think he's a great QB anymore, but I digress) and then you look at the Chargers wins during his career. Aaron Rodgers is another example, although he has a ring. QBs need help to win, that's why I tend to discount the W/L record when judging a QB.

                  No doubt Tom Brady is a great QB, one of the best of all-time, but I look at the 4 rings, and at least 2 of them came before he became a truly elite level QB, that doesn't mean they're worthless, he's got 4 rings! But when I think of it that way it makes me think of Terry Bradshaw (a mediocre QB who was carried to 4 Super Bowl rings and ended up in the HOF because of being carried to them) so I can't fully credit the rings to his (Brady) greatness.

                  But again it gets back to the eye test and personal bias, I think Steve Young was one of the greatest QBs I've ever seen, but he wasn't a starter for as long as other greats, and he "only" won one Super Bowl.
                  I can agree with what you said except the Bradshaw thing. Terry Bradshaw called his own plays..every pass,every run every screen that the steelers offense ran and the personel on and off the field those calls were made by Terry Bradshaw every one of them.His stats were not great all the time but are very very comparable to other HOFers from that era
                  Originally posted by baphamet
                  are you talking career or right now? because i don't see how you can say manning is top 5 even healthy.dude will never be a top 5 QB again, he is done.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                    Really hard pressed ? lol one google search http://www.espn.com/sportsnation/pos...eatest-qb-ever and there are actually 3 different polls with over 100000 lol

                    (Total votes: 122,060)
                    and would you loook at th map..The only place any one disagres with it? The New England area http://www.espn.com/espn/fp/flashPol...pollId/4550089
                    First, I said "hard pressed" - I didn't say 100K poll was impossible. Just that it was something of a rarity.

                    Second, why do you keep posting old articles? This was from TWO years ago when Manning broke favre's TD record. This was before Brady won his 4th super bowl and before manning played like a 50 year old last season. Things have changed.
                    Last edited by TommyBrady12; 12-09-2016, 07:02 AM.
                    Super Bowl Wins: Brady - 6 Elway - 2 Manning - 2 (played well in none and took HGH)

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                    • #40
                      As for the moderators, why do you folks keep changing thread titles? If you find pats fans annoying, then make a complaint to the denver broncos who own this forum. The broncos are the ones who decided to have a smack section and naturally that's going to invite fans of other teams to post.
                      Super Bowl Wins: Brady - 6 Elway - 2 Manning - 2 (played well in none and took HGH)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TommyBrady12 View Post
                        As for the moderators, why do you folks keep changing thread titles? If you find pats fans annoying, then make a complaint to the denver broncos who own this forum. The broncos are the ones who decided to have a smack section and naturally that's going to invite fans of other teams to post.



                        It's the SMACK forum on a Broncos page.... The MODS are Broncos fans as well and can, for the purpose of SMACK, change the title......
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TommyBrady12 View Post
                          As for the moderators, why do you folks keep changing thread titles? If you find pats fans annoying, then make a complaint to the denver broncos who own this forum. The broncos are the ones who decided to have a smack section and naturally that's going to invite fans of other teams to post.
                          I'm actually pretty amused with that, it's great that our moderators are open to participating and things like that to get under your skin.

                          It's like the referees/officials working against you guys In a game or the school principal jumping into The fight and kicking you guys between the legs. LOL

                          I'm not even sure the patriots have a fan forum, do they have a big enough fan base to support the fan forum like this?

                          if so maybe you could encourage the moderators there to participate in threads made by other teams fans however I don't see any other team fans wanting to spend any time there so that might be an unlikely scenario.

                          BTW we don't mind other teams fans that's why the organization invites them to post here but we appreciate Fans that have something of significance to post.

                          You guys do nothing but constantly troll, I mean you came in here with this ridiculous poll using up bandwith and space to give us a ridiculous poll that was taken by what are most likely street walkers at a local mall in the New England area.

                          If you wanted a true football fans opinion all you had to do was ask us. All you had to do was start a poll in here, there's enough New England fans and unbiased fans that would've answered the question in your poll to whether or not cry Brady is the goat.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sam_Z View Post
                            I'm actually pretty amused with that, it's great that our moderators are open to participating and things like that to get under your skin.

                            It's like the referees/officials working against you guys In a game or the school principal jumping into The fight and kicking you guys between the legs. LOL

                            I'm not even sure the patriots have a fan forum, do they have a big enough fan base to support the fan forum like this?

                            if so maybe you could encourage the moderators there to participate in threads made by other teams fans however I don't see any other team fans wanting to spend any time there so that might be an unlikely scenario.

                            BTW we don't mind other teams fans that's why the organization invites them to post here but we appreciate Fans that have something of significance to post.

                            You guys do nothing but constantly troll, I mean you came in here with this ridiculous poll using up bandwith and space to give us a ridiculous poll that was taken by what are most likely street walkers at a local mall in the New England area.

                            If you wanted a true football fans opinion all you had to do was ask us. All you had to do was start a poll in here, there's enough New England fans and unbiased fans that would've answered the question in your poll to whether or not cry Brady is the goat.
                            The pats forum does not have a smack talk section. That's why I come here. It's boring talking with pats fans all the time.

                            As for the moderators, it just feels deceptive to have them change the thread title. If they want to participate in smack talk, fine, but changing another poster's own words? Let me be clear, it's fine for them to do it when a thread title is offensive. However, it is not warranted here.
                            Last edited by TommyBrady12; 12-09-2016, 09:25 AM.
                            Super Bowl Wins: Brady - 6 Elway - 2 Manning - 2 (played well in none and took HGH)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TommyBrady12 View Post
                              The pats forum does not have a smack talk section. That's why I come here. It's boring talking with pats fans all the time.

                              As for the moderators, it just feels deceptive to have them change the thread title. If they want to participate in smack talk, fine, but changing another poster's own words? Let me be clear, it's fine for them to do it when a thread title is offensive. However, it is not warranted here.
                              Oh come on there's no harm in it and I t gets under your skin and that's the point of the smack section. Youve got to appreciate it for what it is.

                              Anyway I understand how you feel about the Pats forum it's kind a lame that they don't have a smack section but could you imagine if they did, all the hate they would be receiving over scandals that the patriots of been accused of throughout the years.

                              I guess you can't fault them for that or just avoiding conflict of interest.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                                I can agree with what you said except the Bradshaw thing. Terry Bradshaw called his own plays..every pass,every run every screen that the steelers offense ran and the personel on and off the field those calls were made by Terry Bradshaw every one of them.His stats were not great all the time but are very very comparable to other HOFers from that era
                                A lot of QBs back in that era called their own plays. It wasn't uncommon. The remarkable thing for Bradshaw though is that he managed to do it cause he doesn't seem smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time.

                                Look at his year to year stats, he has no business in the HOF.

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