What do you guys think of this?

[Alastor]

So... There was no intent to break the law when he got into a vehicle put in his keys and drove of... DRUNK?

Stallworth INTENDED to drive DRUNK and get home. NO more no less. (As far as we know)
Plax INTENDED to carry a gun into a bar. NO More no less. (As far as we know)

Yet Stallworths actions ended in someones death, while plax only shot himself.... and you think its just that Plax is getting a much worse sentance than stallworth?

I think that someone saying, "I'm capable of driving" is a far less egregious error in and of itself than saying "I'm going to load a gun, stuff it in my pants, and take it with me to the bar."

While the outcome of Stallworth's decision ultimately cost a life while Plaxico's did not, one can easily argue that Stallworth did not anticipate any issues and thought he was fine, and genuinely never meant to hurt anyone or break the law.

One cannot make that argument for Plaxico.

[the-shuffler]

I'm going to say this over and over again, because it's true:

He loaded a gun, put it in his pants, and went to the bar.

He broke the law when he put a loaded weapon on his person. He broke the law again when he concealed it. He broke the law a third time when he entered a bar with it (strictly forbidden under most gun laws).
........


Stallworth's intent was to go home. Nothing more, nothing less. He exercised poor judgment as to the "how" of that situation and he did a tremendous amount of damage as a result. He is being punished for that poor judgment. He did not mean to cause any harm however, and certainly did not plan it ahead of time.

So... There was no intent to break the law when he got into a vehicle put in his keys and drove of... DRUNK?

Stallworth INTENDED to drive DRUNK and get home. NO more no less. (As far as we know)
Plax INTENDED to carry a gun into a bar. NO More no less. (As far as we know)

Yet Stallworths actions ended in someones death, while plax only shot himself.... and you think its just that Plax is getting a much worse sentance than stallworth?

[the-shuffler]

Not in New York. Automatic felony, minimum 3.5 years in prison. Try shooting an unregistered gun in a manhattan nightclub and see what happens. You might be able to plea down to a year or 2, but no way do you get off with just a fine. And a first-time offender? Please. Burress has a spotty record filled with domestic disturbances, restraining orders, civil suits and countless driving violations.

Thats IF it goes to trial. Its something thats usually plead down.

[Tarquin]

Not in New York. Automatic felony, minimum 3.5 years in prison. Try shooting an unregistered gun in a manhattan nightclub and see what happens. You might be able to plea down to a year or 2, but no way do you get off with just a fine. And a first-time offender? Please. Burress has a spotty record filled with domestic disturbances, restraining orders, civil suits and countless driving violations.

Chargerbomb is right. A first offense in New York carries a 3.5 year sentence as a manditory minimum.

[Chargerbomb]

Its not intent. Plax got screwed, and made an example of because of his celebrity. Stallworth intended to get in a car drunk. Plax wasnt trying to kill someone. He had a gun for protection, and he was an idiot about it.

The law is ridiculous. 3 year minimum mandatory for carrying a gun that was registered in the wrong place... thats not justice at all. There should have been some sort of lieniency because he was a first time offender. Which there usually is in this case.

For the average citizen this would have been plead down to a fine or 30 days. But celebrity and politics got in the way.

Not in New York. Automatic felony, minimum 3.5 years in prison. Try shooting an unregistered gun in a manhattan nightclub and see what happens. You might be able to plea down to a year or 2, but no way do you get off with just a fine. And a first-time offender? Please. Burress has a spotty record filled with domestic disturbances, restraining orders, civil suits and countless driving violations.

[Alastor]

A lot of people have guns... just to have a gun. Thats the country we live in. I dont own a gun, nor am I a gun advocate. But I know that not everyone who has a gun is intending to use it.

This shouldn't turn into a gun rights debate.

Yes, it's legal to own a weapon. It is not legal to carry it loaded and concealed without a permit. Even with a permit, it's illegal in most states to take it into a bar.

This was not a case of a law-abiding citizen who just happened to own a firearm and they're getting punished.

Plaxico took a weapon, loaded it, put it in his trousers, went to a bar, pulled it out for some reason, dropped it, and shot himself in the leg with it.

These are two very different things.

For Plax he carried the gun and it dropped. I did not hear anything about him trying to pull out the gun and threaten other people with it.

I never said he threatened anyone with it. In fact above I asked why it had been out in the first place. I don't know why it was out.

That he dropped it has been covered in a couple of articles.


Here's what I found via Wikipedia:

On Friday, November 28, 2008, Burress suffered an accidental self-inflicted gunshot wound to the right thigh in the New York City nightclub LQ when his Glock pistol, tucked in the waistband of his sweatpants, began sliding down his leg; apparently in reaching for the gun he inadvertently depressed the trigger, causing the gun to fire.

So apparently he wasn't threatening anyone, he's just a moron.

I believe thats a huge assumption on your part.

It would have been a huge assumption on my part, had I ever made it. If you go look at my posts in this thread you'll see me ask why the weapon was out in the first place, and you won't find a single post where I say he threatened someone with the weapon.

Just because you have a gun with you, doesnt mean that you plan on using it. Thats like saying people who learn Karate are planning to kick random people around the street.

He loaded a gun, put it in his pants, and went to the bar. Carrying a loaded pistol is illegal. Concealing a weapon is illegal. If he felt he was in danger he had other options available. He didn't exercise those options. That tells me he didn't feel he was in danger.

He also didn't have to go to the bar, but did so anyway. This too tells me he didn't feel he was in danger.

I'm going to say this over and over again, because it's true:

He loaded a gun, put it in his pants, and went to the bar.

I simply dont understand how you could say "Plax had some intent", just because he went to the club with a gun in his pants(like an idiot).

He broke the law when he put a loaded weapon on his person. He broke the law again when he concealed it. He broke the law a third time when he entered a bar with it (strictly forbidden under most gun laws).

What logical conclusions are available? That he was scared for his safety? Then why go to the bar? Why didn't he tell anyone about whatever threat was issued that made him uneasy?

But in the same breath, you say "Stallworth had no intent... just because he got in his car and drove drunk"(like an idiot)

Stallworth's intent was to go home. Nothing more, nothing less. He exercised poor judgment as to the "how" of that situation and he did a tremendous amount of damage as a result. He is being punished for that poor judgment. He did not mean to cause any harm however, and certainly did not plan it ahead of time.

Plaxico Burress planned it ahead of time and meant to do exactly what he did; carry an illegal, loaded firearm into a drinking establishment.

You may not like the gun laws, but they are the laws. I'm not here to argue about what the gun laws ought to be (and this forum isn't the proper place for that anyway). I'm saying "Plaxico Burress intentionally broke the law with pre-meditation."

Because that's exactly what he did.

Were the results of Stallworth's poor judgment worse than Plaxico's? Absolutely.

But did Stallworth mean to do that? No.

Did Plaxico mean to do that? Yes.

Intent matters.

[the-shuffler]

Again I disagree.

If an average citizen puts a gun down his pants that he's not licensed to carry (a licensed gun does not mean you can carry it fully loaded and concealed) and decides to go to the bar with it, whips it out for some reason, it falls to the ground and discharges and wounds someone, then I'd think the average citizen is in pretty deep crap!

He could have killed someone, and I don't think anyone for a moment believes Plax was "protecting himself."

If he was, he'd have not gone to the bar in the first place. He's not in a combat zone, he's not a soldier. If he expects there to be trouble someplace he shouldn't go there. If he is concerned for his safety, he can tell the police or the NFL and have options presented, none of which would include "Buy a weapon, load it, stick it in your pants and go have a beer, Plax."

I'm fairly certain that would not be the advice either the NFL or the police would give Plaxico if he were concerned about his safety.

No... I have to disagree. If Joe average loads a gun, sticks it in his pants, goes to the bar with it, whips it out, drops it and it fires they're in pretty deep crap.

There's no reasonable way this could happen, and it was done with intent.

I noticed your comment about Stallworth.

Yes, he intended to drive the car. No, he did not intend to hurt anyone. He made bad decisions that led to someone getting hurt, but he was not trying to cause any trouble or hurt anyone.

Plaxico Buress however... Well, I can't be sure of that. I'm wondering what the need to take a gun to a bar is in the first place. It's certainly egging on trouble in my opinion. This ain't the wild west.

A lot of people have guns... just to have a gun. Thats the country we live in. I dont own a gun, nor am I a gun advocate. But I know that not everyone who has a gun is intending to use it.

For Plax he carried the gun and it dropped. I did not hear anything about him trying to pull out the gun and threaten other people with it. I believe thats a huge assumption on your part. Just because you have a gun with you, doesnt mean that you plan on using it. Thats like saying people who learn Karate are planning to kick random people around the street.

I simply dont understand how you could say "Plax had some intent", just because he went to the club with a gun in his pants(like an idiot). But in the same breath, you say "Stallworth had no intent... just because he got in his car and drove drunk"(like an idiot)

Both were idiots, however, while Plax's actions "Could have killed someone" that is no where near as bad as Stallworths actions which "Did ....

[ebsoria]

Along the lines of what Alastor is trying to convey as far as "intenet", I think the intent is there in carrying that gun.

Plax knows where he is headed and has the concerns, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. So, in his poor judgement he carries the gun. However it get's fired and injures himself, I don't really care about. But, point being... the intent was there. He doesn't carry it just anywhere.

Same situation, different destination. He decides to go to Chuck E. Cheese. Does he carry the gun? No. Why? He does not expect trouble or the need to wave it around, thus, gun left at home.

He took that gun knowing there was a reason to carry it.

[Alastor]

Again I disagree.

If an average citizen puts a gun down his pants that he's not licensed to carry (a licensed gun does not mean you can carry it fully loaded and concealed) and decides to go to the bar with it, whips it out for some reason, it falls to the ground and discharges and wounds someone, then I'd think the average citizen is in pretty deep crap!

He could have killed someone, and I don't think anyone for a moment believes Plax was "protecting himself."

If he was, he'd have not gone to the bar in the first place. He's not in a combat zone, he's not a soldier. If he expects there to be trouble someplace he shouldn't go there. If he is concerned for his safety, he can tell the police or the NFL and have options presented, none of which would include "Buy a weapon, load it, stick it in your pants and go have a beer, Plax."

I'm fairly certain that would not be the advice either the NFL or the police would give Plaxico if he were concerned about his safety.

No... I have to disagree. If Joe average loads a gun, sticks it in his pants, goes to the bar with it, whips it out, drops it and it fires they're in pretty deep crap.

There's no reasonable way this could happen, and it was done with intent.

I noticed your comment about Stallworth.

Yes, he intended to drive the car. No, he did not intend to hurt anyone. He made bad decisions that led to someone getting hurt, but he was not trying to cause any trouble or hurt anyone.

Plaxico Buress however... Well, I can't be sure of that. I'm wondering what the need to take a gun to a bar is in the first place. It's certainly egging on trouble in my opinion. This ain't the wild west.

[the-shuffler]

He took a weapon to a bar.

He didn't register the weapon in the wrong place. He bought a hand-gun, and since he's not a sport shooter/marksman that type of weapon only has one purpose.

He then took that weapon to a place where he knew trouble was likely.

He didn't "register a gun in the wrong place."

He took a handgun to a bar. He was looking for a problem. I think we're fortunate that the only thing that happened was him shooting himself in the leg.



I strongly disagree.

Someone who is worried about their personal safety hires a security team. They don't take a weapon (for which they're not licensed I might add) and go to a Latin Bar in downtown New York.

If I'm worried for my own safety, the last thing I do is arm up and go to a bar.

He got nailed because he had poor judgment. No one made him get the gun. No one made him stick it in his pants. No one made him go to the bar. No one made him take it out at the bar (why was it out at the bar?), no one made him drop it on the floor and have it go off, shooting its owner in the leg.

That's not what someone who is concerned for their safety does.

Plax was looking for trouble.

1) From what I read, the gun was registered in Florida, where it was purchased.

2) Yes he carried it to a bar. Which is why I said he was being an idiot about it. Just having a gun with you... doesnt mean you intend on using it or causing trouble with it.

-whereas Stallworth got into his car drunk. That alone is worse than what Plax did. The fact that he hit someone while driving drunk made it worse.

3) People who have security teams, or Posses... usually end up on VH1 talking about why they are bankrupt. Then you would say... "What an idiot, for wasting all of his money"

4) THe average citizen(1st offense) would have been given a much better plea bargain. The law isnt meant to ruin peoples lives. And 3 years in a prison... yeah that would ruin an average citizens life.

[elecshoc]

So with the cases it is determinded by a judge or jury what the punishment will be. With Stallworth the family of the victim helped in getting the whole situation out of the way. He was looking at 15 years, but by being coopertive he managed to get the lower jail time, but is on house arrest for 2 years then probation for 8 years.

Vick was looking at 5 years, but was sentenced to 23 months.

Plax took a plea deal for a lesser charge. The gun laws for new york are very strict (3 1/2 to 15 years for first charge). Endangerment was the other charge dropped.

MIAMI (AP) - Cleveland Browns wide receiver Donte' Stallworth began serving a 30-day jail sentence Tuesday for killing a pedestrian while driving drunk in Florida, a punishment made possible by his cooperation with investigators and the fervent wish by the victim's family to put the matter behind them.
Stallworth, 28, also reached a confidential financial settlement with the family of 59-year-old Mario Reyes, a construction worker struck and killed early on March 14 by Stallworth, driving drunk in his black 2005 Bentley.

Stallworth had faced 15 years in prison for his DUI manslaughter conviction. After his release from jail, he must serve two years of house arrest and spend eight years on probation. The house arrest provisions will allow him to resume his football career, his attorney said.

With vick he plead guilty to

"Conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture. the max terms are 5 years imprisonment, a fine of 250,000.00, full restitution, a special asessment, and 3 years of supervised release

.

Link to plea agreement

Vick was sentenced to 23 months instead of 5 years.

With plax:

If convicted, New York's gun laws impose a mandatory minimum sentence of 3½ years up to a maximum sentence of 15 years in state prison. According the D.A., the law would require Burress to serve concurreent sentences on the two charges if he was convicted of both gun possession charges. The reckless endangerment charge carries a maximum sentence of one (1) year in jail.

Link

Burress, 32, pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of attempted criminal possession of a weapon and will serve two years in prison, according to Alicia Maxey Greene, spokeswoman for district attorney Robert M. Morgenthau's office. Two years of supervised release will follow his jail term, she said.

Link

[Alastor]

As for Plax, IMO, he is getteing the shaft. 2 years for bringing a gun into the club. Thats just way too much. Take away the celebrity from the case.... 2 years in jail, would Ruin anyones life. Should peoples lives get ruined for registering a gun in the wrong place?

He took a weapon to a bar.

He didn't register the weapon in the wrong place. He bought a hand-gun, and since he's not a sport shooter/marksman that type of weapon only has one purpose.

He then took that weapon to a place where he knew trouble was likely.

He didn't "register a gun in the wrong place."

He took a handgun to a bar. He was looking for a problem. I think we're fortunate that the only thing that happened was him shooting himself in the leg.

Its not intent. Plax got screwed, and made an example of because of his celebrity. Stallworth intended to get in a car drunk. Plax wasnt trying to kill someone. He had a gun for protection, and he was an idiot about it.

I strongly disagree.

Someone who is worried about their personal safety hires a security team. They don't take a weapon (for which they're not licensed I might add) and go to a Latin Bar in downtown New York.

If I'm worried for my own safety, the last thing I do is arm up and go to a bar.

He got nailed because he had poor judgment. No one made him get the gun. No one made him stick it in his pants. No one made him go to the bar. No one made him take it out at the bar (why was it out at the bar?), no one made him drop it on the floor and have it go off, shooting its owner in the leg.

That's not what someone who is concerned for their safety does.

Plax was looking for trouble.

[the-shuffler]

The difference is probably in the intent.

In Stallworth's case, the man that got hit was partially at fault. Stallworth also didn't mean to hurt anyone. He had no way to know that what he was doing would result in someone's death, and that was never what he set out to do.

Plaxico on the other hand, was making a deliberate choice to carry a weapon into a club where he expected a disturbance, and for whatever reason did so in such a fashion that it went off. I don't know if he was brandishing it or showing it off or what, but something made it go off in the first place.

In Vick's case, we're talking about not just one event, but several events. Multiple events over the course of time that he knew were illegal, that he intentionally performed, that in some cases he performed first-hand, and that he tried to cover up upon discovery.

Those things matter. Intent matters.

Its not intent. Plax got screwed, and made an example of because of his celebrity. Stallworth intended to get in a car drunk. Plax wasnt trying to kill someone. He had a gun for protection, and he was an idiot about it.

The law is ridiculous. 3 year minimum mandatory for carrying a gun that was registered in the wrong place... thats not justice at all. There should have been some sort of lieniency because he was a first time offender. Which there usually is in this case.

For the average citizen this would have been plead down to a fine or 30 days. But celebrity and politics got in the way.

[the-shuffler]

The gun laws in New York are super strict. A discharge of a firearm is a mandatory one year in prison there, I believe.

Not sure what the dog fighting laws are in Georgia, but I'm sure Vick wasnt shown much lenience.

The one I dont get is the Dante Stallworth, 30 days for the DUI manslaughter. Not sure what a normal sentence is for that.

Laws are different in every state, it's not corruption.

For the Stallworth incident, the prosecutors have the serveillance video. I havent seen it, but I would suspect that the video shows that Reyes made the mistake of running accross the street when a car was coming.... and that even a sober driver would not have been able to avoid it.

As for Plax, IMO, he is getteing the shaft. 2 years for bringing a gun into the club. Thats just way too much. Take away the celebrity from the case.... 2 years in jail, would Ruin anyones life. Should peoples lives get ruined for registering a gun in the wrong place?

[Alastor]

The difference is probably in the intent.

In Stallworth's case, the man that got hit was partially at fault. Stallworth also didn't mean to hurt anyone. He had no way to know that what he was doing would result in someone's death, and that was never what he set out to do.

Plaxico on the other hand, was making a deliberate choice to carry a weapon into a club where he expected a disturbance, and for whatever reason did so in such a fashion that it went off. I don't know if he was brandishing it or showing it off or what, but something made it go off in the first place.

In Vick's case, we're talking about not just one event, but several events. Multiple events over the course of time that he knew were illegal, that he intentionally performed, that in some cases he performed first-hand, and that he tried to cover up upon discovery.

Those things matter. Intent matters.