Another Cutler Question

[ExBearFan]

He was not clearly hobbled by it. The only one where he shouldn't have been out there was the @ Green Bay game.

Maybe you should read this; it has actual facts in it:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/19/840423/tales-who-is-kyle-orton

"The injury at mid-season to his ankle changed his performance. You could see the difference in Orton's mechanics immediately and throughout the rest of the season. It was a high-ankle injury, and it really slowed him. He became even more of a target to opposing blitzers and his accuracy was severely hampered. The stats don't really matter after that point - it was impressive just to watch him fighting for every play, hobbling to the line of scrimmage and never complaining. If the Chicago defense hadn't given up TDs in the 4th quarter, he would have had more wins. Given the difficult road that his tenure in Chicago endured, his record of 21-12 says it all."

Sure, Orton could walk on it, but it changed everything about his mechanics and mobility. "World class trainers" don't change the fact that stretched ligaments require a minimum of three weeks, plus subsequent therapy, to return to normal.

Again, he was a 90+ QB, playing against 5 playoff teams, before the injury and a 65 QB afterwards playing for the same team in the same season. I'm sure you have some excuse why it wasn't the ankle. Maybe the position of the moon or something.

I appreciate that you agree Kyle is a solid QB. Maybe we'll rehash this at the end of the season. Would you care to go on record right now as to what stats Orton would need for you to admit he's better than you think, or maybe even elite? Would 4,000 yds, 25 TDs, and 12 wins do it? Although I have an idea that he could throw for 5,000 yds and 40 TDs and you'd still say it was the receivers, O-line, McD, anything but Orton's skill and work ethic. And that Cutler could end the season as a sub-80 rating, 20+ INTs, 15 fumbles, and you'd still say none of it is his fault.

I will go on record: Kyle Orton is the most underrated QB in the NFL today, and Jay Cutler is the most overrated. Feel free to toss in other candidates. Any QB (please back it up with quotes and stats) who had lower expectations from the "experts" than Orton and is performing better, and any QB with higher expectations than Cutler who is performing worse.

[Da Swerski]

You won by playing wimp-a$$ teams and needing missed field goals in the 4th quarter. You're about 2 missed FGs from being 1-5. Even if I give you Cutler winning two games, you gotta also accept Cutler has cost you two, so he's a wash.

I don't see how missing field goals is relevant. Had Gould missed his then it's a mute point. Missing kicks is apart of winning/losing. If your QB never misses a throw you probably always win. What games did he cost the Bears? Packers game I'd agree with, but he also gave the Bears a lead late. Vasher stumbling on the play action killed them. I don't see how he was the one who cost us in Atlanta. His INT's against the Bengals came well after it was a blowout.

And how did the Bears win 4 of the first 7 games last year, including the Colts, without Jay? Oh, I see: when Jay's in and you win, it's him; when Kyle's in and you win it's someone else. Nice equation you've created there.

The Colts they won because of the defense and Forte. I never said Kyle hurt the Bears. He was just never the reason they won. Rex had almost the exact same record with the Bears as a starter. Kyle was horrible in 2005. He only had 3 starts in 2007. So his only real opportunity to win games for the Bears were 2008. When he came through the defense blew it for him. It's not a knock on Kyle. Had he been here longer he might have turned into a playmaker for us.

If you're honestly going to claim--after the fact--that the Bears weren't fully expecting to win the division this year with Cutler and challenge for the SB, we have nothing more to discuss on this topic.

The Bears would have expected to win the division even if Orton was here. Getting Cutler was a big picture thing. That's all I claimed, and it's still true. The Bears didn't get Cutler just for 2009. Why don't you get that?

Again--I WATCHED THE GAME! If the Bears D was so great, how'd they give up 41 points??? If the running game was so great, how'd they amass only 53 yards on 22 carries?? Dude, your Orton hate is shining through so much you can't give him credit for a game that all the evidence overwhelming says he carried. Apparentty, you judge a QB by one thing: did he come from behind late in the game to win? Any QB that doesn't put you in that position in the first place "isn't good."

The defense was bad. I said their 4 interceptions helped. Giving a team a short field and stopping an offensive drive is big. I also said Forte didn't have a big game. How does it change the fact that 4 INT's and insane special teams play were the key to that game?

I don't hate Orton. I just don't share the same opinion of him that you do. I don't know why that makes you upset.

You ever have a high ankle sprain? I have, the exact injury Orton had. Three weeks in a cast, followed by six weeks of therapy.

Are you a world class NFL athlete with the best trainers in the world?

Orton was clearly hobbled by the injury until the Houston game. Excluding the six games with the injury, his rating is in the mid 90s; during the injury it was in the mid-60s. Coincidence, I suppose. Really, if you can't come up with a single fact or stat, and you're just going to wave your arms and spout opinion, don't bother.

He was not clearly hobbled by it. The only one where he shouldn't have been out there was the @ Green Bay game. After that it wasn't 100% for a few more games, but he could move around fine. This is the NFL. Most guys aren't 100% every week. Playing through injury and peforming is apart of it.

So now Manning is the metric? No one (me included) said he was better than Manning. I'm just saying that by every relevant metric, he's better than Cutler. The only time in the last 2 years Cutler had better stats was the 6 weeks Orton was injured. Again, look it up, don't just say, "Hunh unh."

The only point with the Manning comment was that you can't just look at an 8 game sample size.

You mean he didn't dig the Bears out of holes the D put him in. Well, JC has certainly done a fine job of that the last couple of weeks for you. Orton's done it 4 times for us already. Did you ever think the problem was never QB?

If you're happy with a guy that has 10 interceptions and 7 fumbles in six games just because he came from behind to beat worthless Seattle (when 2 defenders knocked each other down on a short slant), congrats to you. You'll be very happy with Cutler. I'll take the guy that's led us to come from behind wins over three or four playoff teams, a 6-0 record, a three game lead in the division, a 100+ rating, and has yet to commit a turnover. If the Bears had bothered building a "team" and kept Orton, he'd be doing the same for you. Enjoy watching the Cincy game highlights this week.

I get it you hate Cutler. You don't like me because I don't hold Orton to an elite standard. There's nothing wrong with Orton. I've said it before and I'll say it again he's a solid quarterback. He couldn't do the things he's doing in Denver in Chicago. Denver has an elite O-line led by Clady who is good at pretending to be the great wall of China. Marshall continues to just get better and better.

The main reason your 6-0 isn't Orton. Had Cutler been there he wouldn't be the reason either. Even if Chris Simms was starting. In the first 4 games the Bronco's gave up 10 points or less in each. Most teams will win those games. New England and San Diego were games where I really think Orton made a difference.

[ExBearFan]

Bears fans which name do you prefer?

Jay George or Rex Cutler?

Ya gotta leave the "gross" in there. Maybe Jeff Grossler?

[exultu]

He needs recievers? WHY? Orton played with three worse guys last year and did ok! What is everyone looking at. It sure isn't the new kid wonder Johnny Knox, and Hester just had a 101 yard game. The other guy yhe played with a Vanderbilt. So tell me why he can't make sound decisions! It ain't because he has no one to throw to. Kyle knew about landing on his butt last year. If you have any smarts youy get rid of the ball realy quick while playing with a line that is trying to gell. Cutler for some reason is unable to do that.:orton: is leading to the playoffs

[Gallegos7788]

Bears fans which name do you prefer?

Jay George or Rex Cutler?

[darth-hideous]

And how did the Bears win 4 of the first 7 games last year, including the Colts, without Jay? Oh, I see: when Jay's in and you win, it's him; when Kyle's in and you win it's someone else. Nice equation you've created there.
PWNED!!!!!

[ExBearFan]

Cutler has won despite these things. That's how we have 3 wins. He's not going to go 16-0 every season. Especially on a team that doesn't do anything well.

You won by playing wimp-a$$ teams and needing missed field goals in the 4th quarter. You're about 2 missed FGs from being 1-5. Even if I give you Cutler winning two games, you gotta also accept Cutler has cost you two, so he's a wash.

And how did the Bears win 4 of the first 7 games last year, including the Colts, without Jay? Oh, I see: when Jay's in and you win, it's him; when Kyle's in and you win it's someone else. Nice equation you've created there.

How is that totally wrong? This isn't the Vikings going after Favre for 1 to 2 shots at winning it. The Bears did get Cutler for the long term. How is that even a debate? Fan expectations don't always equal those of the orginization.

If you're honestly going to claim--after the fact--that the Bears weren't fully expecting to win the division this year with Cutler and challenge for the SB, we have nothing more to discuss on this topic.

Forte was a larger part of the Bears offense then any other player in the NFL. In the end it wasn't Orton or Forte that was the main reason we won. The defense getting 4 interceptions, and one of the best played game by a special teams unit I've ever see won that game.

Again--I WATCHED THE GAME! If the Bears D was so great, how'd they give up 41 points??? If the running game was so great, how'd they amass only 53 yards on 22 carries?? Dude, your Orton hate is shining through so much you can't give him credit for a game that all the evidence overwhelming says he carried. Apparentty, you judge a QB by one thing: did he come from behind late in the game to win? Any QB that doesn't put you in that position in the first place "isn't good."

Say what? He came back a week too early. He wasn't 100% in the Green Bay game. This isn't like he was Rivers played on a torn ACL. He was fine. Where are you coming up with this IR stuff?

You ever have a high ankle sprain? I have, the exact injury Orton had. Three weeks in a cast, followed by six weeks of therapy. Orton was clearly hobbled by the injury until the Houston game. Excluding the six games with the injury, his rating is in the mid 90s; during the injury it was in the mid-60s. Coincidence, I suppose. Really, if you can't come up with a single fact or stat, and you're just going to wave your arms and spout opinion, don't bother.

I'm sure Kyle played much better then most QB's his first 8 games. Does this mean he's better then Peyton Manning? No one has ever claimed Orton is a bad QB. The guy is an NFL starter. He has his short comings though.

So now Manning is the metric? No one (me included) said he was better than Manning. I'm just saying that by every relevant metric, he's better than Cutler. The only time in the last 2 years Cutler had better stats was the 6 weeks Orton was injured. Again, look it up, don't just say, "Hunh unh."

It's the truth. I'm not saying Kyle can't be the reason you win. He's doing that for Denver now. When he had the chance to win some games for the Bears but didn't get it done.

You mean he didn't dig the Bears out of holes the D put him in. Well, JC has certainly done a fine job of that the last couple of weeks for you. Orton's done it 4 times for us already. Did you ever think the problem was never QB?

If you're happy with a guy that has 10 interceptions and 7 fumbles in six games just because he came from behind to beat worthless Seattle (when 2 defenders knocked each other down on a short slant), congrats to you. You'll be very happy with Cutler. I'll take the guy that's led us to come from behind wins over three or four playoff teams, a 6-0 record, a three game lead in the division, a 100+ rating, and has yet to commit a turnover. If the Bears had bothered building a "team" and kept Orton, he'd be doing the same for you. Enjoy watching the Cincy game highlights this week.

[Da Swerski]

Just excuses, Cutler had a much better OL than Orton had last year

How so? The Bears o-line this year is beyond horrible.

much better set of receivers (Bennett and Knox) than Orton had last year (Lloyd and Booker)

Bennett was here last year. Knox is the only new guy, and he's a 5th round pick. Would he have even developed with Orton? We'll never know.

Ron Turner is the one of the worst OC in the NFL, he almost destroyed the University of Illinois football program, how could this guy "coach" or "mentor" anyone ?

He's a better NFL coach then he is running a college program. In the NFL he doesn't have to recruit or anything else ect. Turner is average to below average for an NFL coordinator. Who said he was good?

As for blaming Orton for the losses last year, the Bears should have won the Atlanta game if not for the defensive melt down and stupid ST mistakes.

I said this.

The Bears should also have won the Tampa Bay game last year. Orton and the offense was leading that game 24-14 late in the 4th quarter when Tillman and the Bears defense collapse. Griese would attempt 68 passes and late in the game his receivers came open time and time again over the middle, hitting every hole in the Chicago cover two. Tampa would tie the game 24-24 at the end of regulation.

Overtime began with the Bears forcing a Tampa punt. On Chicago's possession, receiver Rashied Davis dropped a perfect first-down pass at the Tampa 35. The Bears defense pinned the Buccaneers at their own 10 and apparently forcing them to punt. But at the end of that third-down play, Charles Tillman launched himself into a pile, retaliating after Buc tackle Jeremy Trueblood allegedly took a swing at a Bear. Tillman was flagged for 15 yards, and the Bear defense then collapsed. Tampa drove the field, kicked a field goal, and defeated the Bears 27-24.

The Bears should have won at least the Atlanta and TB game last year (and probably the Carolina game), Orton was playing with one leg last year and yet his record was 9-6 and should have been 11-5. Let see what a healthy Jay Cutler will do this year with a better supporting group. But keep those stupid excuses coming if that is all that will keep the Jay Grossman fans happy this year.

Tampa and Carolina are perfect examples of games Orton lost. Orton had chances in both games to make easy throws to end the game. Instead we wound up punting it. The worst was that 5-10 yard slant to Booker that would have been a TD. Orton just missed it. In the end you can blame whoever you want. Only the games Orton won count in my statement of "The Bears never won a game because of Orton."

In what regard does Cutler have a better supporting cast? Until this season started everyone thought the receivers got worse. The o-line is beyond horrible. Pace is done. Omiyale was a horrible signing. Kreutz is still ok, but he's not aging well. He's gotten worse at snapping the ball every single year since 2005. Garza may be the best linemen and he's only the right guard. Chris Williams has been ok at times, and terrible at others. Forte hasn't helped out all year.

[airflash12]

[QUOTE=Da Swerski;2997371]Cutler has won despite these things. That's how we have 3 wins. He's not going to go 16-0 every season. Especially on a team that doesn't do anything well.

Just excuses, Cutler had a much better OL than Orton had last year, much better set of receivers (Bennett and Knox) than Orton had last year (Lloyd and Booker), the Bears defense is much better this year. Coming into the Bengals game, the Bears ranked at 13th as opposed the the Bears defense last year that ranked 21st.

Ron Turner is the one of the worst OC in the NFL, he almost destroyed the University of Illinois football program, how could this guy "coach" or "mentor" anyone ?

As for blaming Orton for the losses last year, the Bears should have won the Atlanta game if not for the defensive melt down and stupid ST mistakes.

The Bears should also have won the Tampa Bay game last year. Orton and the offense was leading that game 24-14 late in the 4th quarter when Tillman and the Bears defense collapse. Griese would attempt 68 passes and late in the game his receivers came open time and time again over the middle, hitting every hole in the Chicago cover two. Tampa would tie the game 24-24 at the end of regulation.

Overtime began with the Bears forcing a Tampa punt. On Chicago's possession, receiver Rashied Davis dropped a perfect first-down pass at the Tampa 35. The Bears defense pinned the Buccaneers at their own 10 and apparently forcing them to punt. But at the end of that third-down play, Charles Tillman launched himself into a pile, retaliating after Buc tackle Jeremy Trueblood allegedly took a swing at a Bear. Tillman was flagged for 15 yards, and the Bear defense then collapsed. Tampa drove the field, kicked a field goal, and defeated the Bears 27-24.

The Bears should have won at least the Atlanta and TB game last year (and probably the Carolina game), Orton was playing with one leg last year and yet his record was 9-6 and should have been 11-5. Let see what a healthy Jay Cutler will do this year with a better supporting group. But keep those stupid excuses coming if that is all that will keep the Jay Grossman fans happy this year.

[Da Swerski]

And another thing Bears fans.

Cutler was supposed to win for you DESPITE these things-remember?

So if you want to see what the Windy City Savior would look like with one of the games best O lines and a group of the NFL's elite receivers.

Check Denver's game film from last year.

Cutler has won despite these things. That's how we have 3 wins. He's not going to go 16-0 every season. Especially on a team that doesn't do anything well.

Totally wrong. Bears fans have been besides themselves with SB talk this offseason. Even SI picked them to go to the Bowl.

How is that totally wrong? This isn't the Vikings going after Favre for 1 to 2 shots at winning it. The Bears did get Cutler for the long term. How is that even a debate? Fan expectations don't always equal those of the orginization.

Curious how you're gonna do that with no draft picks, a history of wasting talent, and such free agent brilliant moves as picking up guys other teams have dumped like Pace.

No one said it's a lock they will do it, but things happen. It's not as if the Bears have never fielded a good team before. They might just do it again.

No point for you, you mean, because I did see that game and you are totally wrong. No, Kyle didn't throw five 80-yard passes in that game; he only hit almost 70% of his passes for nearly 300 yards and two TDs. I guess it was the Bears' massive 53-yard rushing effort (on 22 carries) that won the game.

Forte was a larger part of the Bears offense then any other player in the NFL. Unless Peterson wound up passing him up late in the season. The reason the Bears did a lot of things last year was Forte. Even if it was the fact he forced defenses to stack the line, and open up things for Orton. In the end it wasn't Orton or Forte that was the main reason we won. The defense getting 4 interceptions, and one of the best played game by a special teams unit I've ever see won that game.

Like play on an ankle after 2 weeks when he should have been put on IR.

Say what? He came back a week too early. He wasn't 100% in the Green Bay game. This isn't like he was Rivers played on a torn ACL. He was fine. Where are you coming up with this IR stuff?

And yet last year Kyle ran up better numbers through 8 games (before his injury) than Cutler did at Denver. And this year Kyle is running up MUCH better numbers here than Cutler did.

I'm sure Kyle played much better then most QB's his first 8 games. Does this mean he's better then Peyton Manning? No one has ever claimed Orton is a bad QB. The guy is an NFL starter. He has his short comings though.

That is such a patently ridiculous statement as to not warrent a response. Unless your point is, Kyle gave the Bears leads in the 4th quarter only to see the D throw them away.

It's the truth. I'm not saying Kyle can't be the reason you win. He's doing that for Denver now. When he had the chance to win some games for the Bears but didn't get it done. The Atlanta game is on the Bears D and that's not Kyle's fault. Had we won that game obviously my statement wouldn't be valid. Without a doubt I'm sure McDaniels will help Orton fill out his potential more so then Ron Turner would have. I almost wish this trade had happened in 2010 so Cutler could have been coached by him for a season.

[bahn]

I can 100% assure you that the Bears never won a single game because of Kyle Orton.

***

:go:

[ExBearFan]

They would still do the trade. No position is more important then the QB. The Bears now have their guy. They didn't make the trade to win the Super Bowl in 2009.

Totally wrong. Bears fans have been besides themselves with SB talk this offseason. Even SI picked them to go to the Bowl.

We've seen bad teams have huge turnarounds. That's how the NFL is set up. People expected Denver to be bad, they've been great. Look at how quick Miami turned around. You need to have the right coaches and GM in place to do it, but it's not as if there's no hope for the Bears. If it takes till 2011-2012 to turn the Bears into legit contenders. That's not a big deal.

Curious how you're gonna do that with no draft picks, a history of wasting talent, and such free agent brilliant moves as picking up guys other teams have dumped like Pace.

I watched Orton last year. He was not awesome, but he did a good job. He wasn't the reason they scored 48 points on offense. There's no point in arguing that.

No point for you, you mean, because I did see that game and you are totally wrong. No, Kyle didn't throw five 80-yard passes in that game; he only hit almost 70% of his passes for nearly 300 yards and two TDs. I guess it was the Bears' massive 53-yard rushing effort (on 22 carries) that won the game.

The Kyle Orton in Denver is the same Kyle Orton in Chicago.

Finally, you're right about something.

The difference being is 1.) McDaniels doesn't ask Orton to do anything he's not capable of doing.

Like play on an ankle after 2 weeks when he should have been put on IR.

2.) The Bronco's have a much better offense. Most QB's will do well behind that O-line and with those receivers.

And yet last year Kyle ran up better numbers through 8 games (before his injury) than Cutler did at Denver. And this year Kyle is running up MUCH better numbers here than Cutler did.

I can 100% assure you that the Bears never won a single game because of Kyle Orton.

That is such a patently ridiculous statement as to not warrent a response. Unless your point is, Kyle gave the Bears leads in the 4th quarter only to see the D throw them away.

He's a great guy and I hope he continues to be successful. He deserves it.

Well, we do agree on some things!

[dbjeff]

If Orton(or Cutler) throws one pick inside of the redzone against either Cincy, Dallas, or New England we lose. Period.

Unless Cutler was able to lead us to more points that Orton was able to.

But, I guess that's not possible at all.

[Gallegos7788]

And another thing Bears fans.

Cutler was supposed to win for you DESPITE these things-remember?

So if you want to see what the Windy City Savior would look like with one of the games best O lines and a group of the NFL's elite receivers.

Check Denver's game film from last year.

[iowabronco24]

What's even funnier is reading the Bears fans expectations of Cutler dwindle before their very eyes. And most of them don't even realize it's happening to them.

The majority of Chicago fans are now trying spin the Hershel Walker Trade of 2009 by saying that Cutler is struggling only because of:

A) His line

B) His running game

C) Coaching

And D) Defense

Well...I may be going out on a limb here-but I'll venture to guess that the Chiefs would also be a good team if they excelled at EVERY facet of the game too!

I think its very easy to look at Jays surrounding cast in some throughout his career and come up with ways to defend him (many have). BUT..after watching him for all his career, I see that if you actually look at the situations he's in, most of his INT are NOT excusable. Yes, our defense sucked last year, but that was NOT even close to the sole reason for many of Cutlers interceptions. A good chunk of those interceptions came when the the Broncos either A) Had the lead B) Tied or C) down by 1 score or less. What does this tell you? That even though our defense sucked, Jay was not just forcing throws down field aimlessly because we were down by 21 and we had to get back in the game. Jay was not throwing interceptions because we had 7 RB's on IR. Jay was throwing interceptions because he was making poor decisions, most of which when we were either winning or still in the game. Sometimes people look at the entire thing without looking at the grunt of the arguement. Its easy to look at our defensive stats last year and say "Cutler was just forcing throws because we were always down and he needed to make plays" When that just simply wasn't the case the majority of the time.