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  • Recent NFL Handling of Various Situations

    With the recent handling or lack thereof of these various personal issues surrounding players I wanted to have a clean and non combative discussion about what sorts of precedents are now being set and what it could mean to future players and all-be-it a stretch perhaps impact some of our currently suspended players.


    The first one which comes to mind is the Ray rice incident. I am not going to get into my personal thoughts on abuse but I do want to touch on what I heard Ray Rice was basing his appeal on. The first bit of news I heard yesterday is that Rice & the NFLPA are appealing based on the fact that he was already punished (2-game suspension) by the league for the incident and then punished a second-time for the same incident. The NFLPA & Rice are both concerned that setting this as a precedent for any or all future issues is a dangerous one.

    Curious as to others thoughts about the above?


    There is another group of issues which are plaguing the NFL now as well. Players who have been accused or charged with incidents but have not yet been convicted. The current examples of players in this category are:

    - Greg Hardy (requested Jury trial)
    - Adrian Peterson (not aware of a court date in the case yet)
    - Ray McDonald- details of this case have for some reason fallen out of the news so I am not able to find details of a court date as or right now but I know charges has been laid.

    The big question which is being asked now is should ANYTHING be done until they are convicted? IF something is done and the player is found not guilty then what would the NFL do if they suspended/ removed the player proactively?


    I realize these are all sensitive issues and topics but I was curious as to others thoughts. I hope the responses are kept clean and calm.

  • #2
    IMO Rice and his lawyer have a valid point. His punishment was directly related to the reaction of the media and public when the second video was released. I may not believe the right initial choice was made by the legal system or the NFL the first time around but his increased punishment after it was settled is troubling to me.

    It was a disturbing video. But we already knew what had occurred. Violence is not pretty. Seeing the actual video did not change my mind of Rice or the incident. Is the new standard - increased punishment if you get caught on tape? When there is a public outcry? The "knock out game" was widely shown for a while. Was the violence of the assault to the victim any less if it was not caught on tape?

    Completely different incident. But curious how some of you would have responded if the TJ Ward off-season incident was on ESPN. He was drunk and verbally abused a woman at a bar. Then threw a mug at her. Bet it looked ugly. Yet at the time it was downplayed. If on tape would it warrant suspension?

    It raises some very difficult issues. How far back is acceptable for the panel review and to re-punish? Saw an interesting post yesterday concerning Brandon Marshall WR. He had multiple domestic violence charges. Should the NFL now say "we didn't do enough" and suspend him?

    The question of timing of punishment is also difficult to determine. When has the player (or owner) embarrassed the NFL brand enough to be suspended? When accused? When in court? When convicted? In Rice's case he made a plea deal for counseling. He was not actually convicted? Seems like there should be some consideration to due process and the legal system before a League punishment that causes a young man to lose his job and literally millions of dollars is handed down. Or is the standard public opinion and media commentary?

    These are some really tough situations. Our opinions are all over the place. Mine included. I may judge an act, comment or attitude despicable but is that enough to punish. Especially when the popular societal opinion can easily border on a witch hunt instead of a legitimate reasonable solution to a situation based on the facts. Not all reactions are reliable. They can very easily be swayed by emotion and bias. At least something to consider.

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    • #3
      I think the NFL, and sports in general, use to ignore these kinds of things. I applaud the fact they are trying to make a statement and get on the right side of issues.

      Problem is since this is new there will be growing pains...there will be mistakes.

      I do not like the 2nd Ray Rice suspension and for the exact reason he is going to appeal. He was punished for the same crime twice. I do not want to go down that road. Imagine Von getting suspended again for tampering with test samples.

      Now if the 2nd suspension came because a player or his representatives lied...now I understand a 2nd punishment.

      On the Peterson, Hardy and other future issues....the NFL needs to look long and hard about WHEN it is going to punish people. We live in a country where people are innocent until proven guiltly. We also live in a country where the courts can find people innocent but the civil courts can still say people are liable. I understand the NFL does not HAVE to wait until the courts do thier thing but maybe it would be prudent to ensure all evidence is being considered.

      Whatever they decide the NFL and all the teams need to be on the same page about WHEN players are punished.

      Also just because a guy is inactive does that save a game of suspension? It is not equal usually a suspended game missed comes without pay. If it does not take away a game suspended does that mean a player is being punished more? Does it matter since he is still getting paid?

      The NFL is treading new waters and imo HOW things are being done needs to be looked at just as closely as to WHY they are being done.
      Let's Ride!

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      • #4
        Unless the CBA prevents the NFL from revising a suspension, Rice doesn't have a case.

        The NFL isn't bound by the same rules as the justice system. They don't have to use the same burden of proof.
        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
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        • #5
          Originally posted by broncolee View Post
          Unless the CBA prevents the NFL from revising a suspension, Rice doesn't have a case.

          The NFL isn't bound by the same rules as the justice system. They don't have to use the same burden of proof.
          I believe the CBA that was just signed doesn't allow the NFL to repunish someone for the same crime which is what is happening to Rice. NFL is going to fight it hard because if it comes back he only gets 2 games them saying they didn't have all the evidence is going to be very hard to make anyone believe.

          The biggest problem I see now is how quickly the general population is able to get information which leaves the NFL is a tough spot. They either punish before they are proven guilty or they wait and have to deal with the public outcry.




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          • #6
            Originally posted by #87Birdman View Post
            I believe the CBA that was just signed doesn't allow the NFL to repunish someone for the same crime which is what is happening to Rice. NFL is going to fight it hard because if it comes back he only gets 2 games them saying they didn't have all the evidence is going to be very hard to make anyone believe.

            The biggest problem I see now is how quickly the general population is able to get information which leaves the NFL is a tough spot. They either punish before they are proven guilty or they wait and have to deal with the public outcry.
            In my opinion it is not about being punished, that is the job of the criminal justice system. I believe it is a process of being held responsible and accountable for ones actions. In the real world if you are charged with a felony criminal offense there are consequences for that in the community. You might get suspended from your job or have to stop coaching the little league team. The public outcry is not for punishment it is for accountability and I believe that for too long there has been little accountability for inappropriate behavior on the part of our sports heroes. I don't believe that being responsible and accountable is too much to ask for any of us.
            Il a été soit couché ou alors qu'il est étendu maintenant.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Hadez View Post
              I think the NFL, and sports in general, use to ignore these kinds of things. I applaud the fact they are trying to make a statement and get on the right side of issues.

              Problem is since this is new there will be growing pains...there will be mistakes.

              I do not like the 2nd Ray Rice suspension and for the exact reason he is going to appeal. He was punished for the same crime twice. I do not want to go down that road. Imagine Von getting suspended again for tampering with test samples.

              Now if the 2nd suspension came because a player or his representatives lied...now I understand a 2nd punishment.

              On the Peterson, Hardy and other future issues....the NFL needs to look long and hard about WHEN it is going to punish people. We live in a country where people are innocent until proven guiltly. We also live in a country where the courts can find people innocent but the civil courts can still say people are liable. I understand the NFL does not HAVE to wait until the courts do thier thing but maybe it would be prudent to ensure all evidence is being considered.

              Whatever they decide the NFL and all the teams need to be on the same page about WHEN players are punished.

              Also just because a guy is inactive does that save a game of suspension? It is not equal usually a suspended game missed comes without pay. If it does not take away a game suspended does that mean a player is being punished more? Does it matter since he is still getting paid?

              The NFL is treading new waters and imo HOW things are being done needs to be looked at just as closely as to WHY they are being done.
              I agree with the later portion of your comment but I disagree with the comment you made about Rice. Even if Rice lied IMO- it is up to the league to do its due diligence to prove or disprove the information they are being told. If they never approached police to view footage then that was the leagues fault for not doing their job. If the league had the video prior to the suspension of two games then the league did not do their job. Since the current policies for suspensions fall to the commissioner to determine the duration and harshness of the penalty/ punishment then to be frank this all falls on his lap.

              I think Roger needs to step forward and communicate clearly what the NFL will be doing with accusations such as DWI, domestic violence and abuse. Be clear and do not waiver. If he doesn't do that then I really do think he needs to resign.

              With regards to the comment above mine calling out the TJ Ward incident. That is a great example. Both recent and relevant. I think it raises the question of if the league hears of an incident and determines no punishment is necessary is that "no punishment verdict" equivalent to being punished and therefore no future discipline can be handed out by the league.

              I am not certain about the rest of you but I find these scenarios and the differences in the response by the league and public to be both fascinating and concerning.
              Last edited by Rich_C; 09-17-2014, 07:29 AM.

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              • #8
                The NFLPA really should be trying to appeal Ray Rice's suspension. It does look like he is being punished a second time for the same crime because Goodell couldn't be bothered to look at the tape until it was everywhere. A union that didn't fight it would not be worth the dues they collect.

                Even if Ray Rice is reinstated this season he will not play. He is old, high mileage, looked horrible last season, and his name would be absolutely toxic to the team signing him. Oakland already has plenty of big name high downside backs on their roster, they can't use Rice too. I just can't see the Ravens bringing him back after all this embarrassment.
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                • #9
                  If the courts did what they do to poor people without great representation, then they would all be in jail and suspensions wouldn't be as important. Also a lot of those people lose their jobs while in jail even if they haven't been convicted. They may sit there for over a month just to see a judge and plea not guilty. Screw these guys who didn't think it's fair. Vick went to jail in N.Y. for carrying a gun and shooting himself, how do these guys hurt others and stay out of jail? Not many cared a lot For Vicks suspension after sitting out a lot of time in jail, potentially putting his career at risk. For Peterson it should be the worst. He brought a child into this world, didn't raise him, visits him, and when he acts out hurts him. The kid is 4. Apparently ap wasted a college education if he cannot use words to effectively teach his kid right from wrong without scaring him forever.Hopefully all the baby mommas will come to put him behind bars where he belongs. I Was spanked regularly so I get the cultural thing. Now there's new data and people, especially of the educated community, need to recognize. Beating children teaches nothing but fear and creates a warmongering relationship. Glad they went back and suspended rice, should be a year long suspension. I'm a professional fighter and if I lay a hand on a man or woman, I get charged with attempted murder. Ray rice has 80lbs of explosive muscle over me and most likely hits a lot harder than me, how isn't he considered a lethal weapon? He deserves to sit in jail for a while with the rest of them. I didn't see a lot on Greg hardy so I reserve judgment on his case.
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                  • #10
                    As broncolee said, this is at the NFL's discretion. An appeal can be made, while further measures are being made to secure independent arbitration. Whether or not that will actually happen is another discussion.

                    It's ultimately about money. The NFL seeks to protect its image above all else. The more scandalous a situation in the media is, the more proactive the league office is going to be in doling out punishment. All of that probably goes w/o saying, though. There's no need for these morning show guys to debate it, other than to capitalize on the hot topic issues.

                    I've already noticed that the NFL is being more thorough in it's investigative procedures and policy enforcement parameters. Goodell is hiring a slew of people, who will hopefully remain unbiased. Not only for the player's sake, but the league's. I've said from the get go that they need to have a room full of legal analysts to go over each case, and get these initial fines and suspensions right. I also hope they eventually work out a full disclosure policy with the NFLPA. Normally, it wouldn't be appropriate to do so at the corporate level, but the NFL is so high profile that I think it would be best to get everyone's cards on the table should there be an grievance between a player and the league. The transparency would cut through the bull crap real quick.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by NVBroncfan View Post
                      The NFLPA really should be trying to appeal Ray Rice's suspension. It does look like he is being punished a second time for the same crime because Goodell couldn't be bothered to look at the tape until it was everywhere. A union that didn't fight it would not be worth the dues they collect.

                      Even if Ray Rice is reinstated this season he will not play. He is old, high mileage, looked horrible last season, and his name would be absolutely toxic to the team signing him. Oakland already has plenty of big name high downside backs on their roster, they can't use Rice too. I just can't see the Ravens bringing him back after all this embarrassment.
                      I think the Ravens would take him back. Their fans don't seem to mind what he did.
                      My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Larryh View Post
                        In my opinion it is not about being punished, that is the job of the criminal justice system. I believe it is a process of being held responsible and accountable for ones actions. In the real world if you are charged with a felony criminal offense there are consequences for that in the community. You might get suspended from your job or have to stop coaching the little league team. The public outcry is not for punishment it is for accountability and I believe that for too long there has been little accountability for inappropriate behavior on the part of our sports heroes. I don't believe that being responsible and accountable is too much to ask for any of us.
                        Well said...now how is this theory put into practice?

                        Does the team receive direction to suspend a player with pay based on the assumption that they will be found guilty and then retroactively recover the pay for that suspension if he is found guilty?

                        My personal concern with this approach is if there is a false accusation/ allegation or even evidence fabricated or otherwise resulting is charges being laid. What would the players compensation be for the league acting hastily and tarnishing their reputation to only find out that they did nothing wrong? Have we come to a point in our society where a scenario like this is deemed acceptable collateral damage?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
                          Well said...now how is this theory put into practice?

                          Does the team receive direction to suspend a player with pay based on the assumption that they will be found guilty and then retroactively recover the pay for that suspension if he is found guilty?

                          My personal concern with this approach is if there is a false accusation/ allegation or even evidence fabricated or otherwise resulting is charges being laid. What would the players compensation be for the league acting hastily and tarnishing their reputation to only find out that they did nothing wrong? Have we come to a point in our society where a scenario like this is deemed acceptable collateral damage?
                          Example of this would be Doom a few years ago where he was accused of threating a couple by showing a gun. Yet nothing came of it but this board wanted him gone before evidence came to light lol.




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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by #87Birdman View Post
                            Example of this would be Doom a few years ago where he was accused of threating a couple by showing a gun. Yet nothing came of it but this board wanted him gone before evidence came to light lol.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Larryh View Post
                              In my opinion it is not about being punished, that is the job of the criminal justice system. I believe it is a process of being held responsible and accountable for ones actions. In the real world if you are charged with a felony criminal offense there are consequences for that in the community. You might get suspended from your job or have to stop coaching the little league team. The public outcry is not for punishment it is for accountability and I believe that for too long there has been little accountability for inappropriate behavior on the part of our sports heroes. I don't believe that being responsible and accountable is too much to ask for any of us.
                              Accountability is a vague idea that has changed over the years. How many times do we hear of someone not being held accountable due to a technicality? It trickles through society. It seems the more popular concept is what can I get away with instead of accountability. Even pride in getting over on the system at times

                              There is even a current thread welcoming back Welker. Was he held accountable for breaking the drug policy? Or did he "beat the system" and we are happy he will be on the field this weekend?

                              NFL is getting piled on by public opinion right mow. They are the easy target. Arguably they brought it on themselves and deserve it. But still much of their response right now is because they are in the headlines. Rice situation is ugly but is it getting overblown due to that public opinion?

                              Floyd Mayweather has multiple domestic abuse charges. Even spent time in jail for it. Yet this past weekend he made tens of millions in a fight. Was the event boycotted? Was NOW part of a public outcry that was part of the ESPN coverage? Did the media have continuous editorials and coverage? Did sponsors publicly threaten to withdraw from the event. Yet all those things happened to the NFL.

                              My concern with these issues is the reactive nature of our society. Society will be quick to judge and pile on the NFL. Causing them to need to react to the outcry and potential "bad press". But in the end are they being fair? Will they change policy in a constructive way? Or is accountability directly related to the level of public outcry?

                              Today it is the NFL, Rice and Peterson. Who or what will be the center of public outrage tomorrow? ?

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