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  • #16
    Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
    Well said...now how is this theory put into practice?

    Does the team receive direction to suspend a player with pay based on the assumption that they will be found guilty and then retroactively recover the pay for that suspension if he is found guilty?

    My personal concern with this approach is if there is a false accusation/ allegation or even evidence fabricated or otherwise resulting is charges being laid. What would the players compensation be for the league acting hastily and tarnishing their reputation to only find out that they did nothing wrong? Have we come to a point in our society where a scenario like this is deemed acceptable collateral damage?
    Unfortunately you might be right. There might be some collateral damage that is deemed acceptable in order to do the appropriate thing. However that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that trying to apply a black and white solution to problems that always are colored in gray will constantly get the NFL in trouble. I am positive that the powers that be never predicted the backlash they would get because of their ham handed handling of these issues. The NFL and other pro leagues by the way, don't understand that all people want is for people in high places to be held accountable for their actions. I am held to a very high standard in my profession and if I do something inappropriate then I am suspended with pay. If it is proven that I was criminal in my behavior then my employment is immediately terminated. I see no reason that the same standards shouldn't apply to our sports heroes. If we can get beyond the punishment mentality into a mentality that encourages responsibility and accountability I believe the consequences become easier to determine.
    Il a été soit couché ou alors qu'il est étendu maintenant.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
      No charges pressed. But there was a lot of skepticism about the facts. Guns reported to have been shown by Doom and Ramirez. They denied it but the guns were found in both cars.

      Imagine the outcome if the incident had been captured on tape and shown on TMZ. Three cars in traffic filled with knuckle heads yelling, honking and throwing things. Then two get out of their cars and look menacingly at the woman in the third car. Does not play well on tape. Should the punishment change if a tape surfaced today?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FR Tim View Post
        Accountability is a vague idea that has changed over the years. How many times do we hear of someone not being held accountable due to a technicality? It trickles through society. It seems the more popular concept is what can I get away with instead of accountability. Even pride in getting over on the system at times

        There is even a current thread welcoming back Welker. Was he held accountable for breaking the drug policy? Or did he "beat the system" and we are happy he will be on the field this weekend?

        NFL is getting piled on by public opinion right mow. They are the easy target. Arguably they brought it on themselves and deserve it. But still much of their response right now is because they are in the headlines. Rice situation is ugly but is it getting overblown due to that public opinion?

        Floyd Mayweather has multiple domestic abuse charges. Even spent time in jail for it. Yet this past weekend he made tens of millions in a fight. Was the event boycotted? Was NOW part of a public outcry that was part of the ESPN coverage? Did the media have continuous editorials and coverage? Did sponsors publicly threaten to withdraw from the event. Yet all those things happened to the NFL.

        My concern with these issues is the reactive nature of our society. Society will be quick to judge and pile on the NFL. Causing them to need to react to the outcry and potential "bad press". But in the end are they being fair? Will they change policy in a constructive way? Or is accountability directly related to the level of public outcry?

        Today it is the NFL, Rice and Peterson. Who or what will be the center of public outrage tomorrow? ?
        I don't disagree with your comments about how society perceives accountability and certainly you have summed up a lot of societies complacency about these problems. But the difficulty is that the major sports leagues and many fans see that complacency as acceptance and approval of inappropriate behavior. The powers that be then use that complacency to do nothing and ordinary people just go along with it. Fortunately this time it sounds like ordinary fans have had enough and want the NFL to clean up its act. Accountability is really not that hard to define. In its simplest form, when you get caught speeding you get instant accountability. We ask people around us everyday to be accountable for their actions.....just try and get a teenager to explain why they didn't come home on time. It is my belief that the only logical conclusion your argument leads to is that we shouldn't do anything.
        Il a été soit couché ou alors qu'il est étendu maintenant.

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        • #19
          I think the NFL is learning. While Goodell may or may not be the sacrificial lamb in all of this, he kind of is irrelevant as it relates to how the NFL must learn to handle these situations in the future.

          First of all, trying to bury anything any more is beyond ridiculous. The Rice video has brought this to light once again, but it's been well known for some time that you can't act as if nothing happened or it is not that important - the NFL has been slow to understand this and I am not too sure why.

          Second, the rules and policies related to off-the-field actions are a double-edged sword, in my opinion. I see them more as a necessary evil (ironic). With so many stupid things that people do, the NFL as the right to and needs to protect its own image. It's been discussed ad nosium, but lots of businesses have company policies that punishes certain actions though they happen outside of the work environment which are part of the employment contract.

          The problem is these policies are so often reactive and therefor slow when new or more egregious things happen. What's more is, as much as we might naively wish otherwise, there is not one-size-fits-all punishment for some actions. Now domestic violence charges will result in a 6 game suspension (or something like that), for the first offense. Well, how much or how little? The rules would say a player slapping his girlfriend or wife really is the same as a player beating her to within an inch of her life? The example might not be wholly accurate, but it does serve to show that having a punishment schedule for domestic violence, while better than ignoring it or covering it up, it ripe for failure.

          Will teams be given the ability to enforce or not enforce certain rules, or perhaps, enforce "expected" punishments? I forget his name, but the 49ers player arrested on DV charges was allowed to play with the team citing the allowance of due process while Adrian Peterson is indicted by a grand jury and he's immediately suspended. Again this highlights some inconsistencies that the NFL is struggling with.

          Throw in to all of this the issues plaguing the league with substance abuse and it really is a mess. I believe the NFL was the first major (if not the first) sports league in the world to initiate a drug testing policy, but they have not really stayed too relevant when compared sports like the IOC and cycling, for example. All have their issues, but the NFL lags in this area.

          The main problem, as I see it, the NFL has become a fat and lazy cash cow. Maybe Goodell is more part of the problem than not, though he could only be the head of something much larger which would include all the team owners and organizations.

          Sadly, the results from these latest problems may hurt the league in the long run because of public pressure to act now. Had they been more diligent to protect the league in the past and be more open with the public, I believe the NFL would be even better than it is today.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Larryh View Post
            I don't disagree with your comments about how society perceives accountability and certainly you have summed up a lot of societies complacency about these problems. But the difficulty is that the major sports leagues and many fans see that complacency as acceptance and approval of inappropriate behavior. The powers that be then use that complacency to do nothing and ordinary people just go along with it. Fortunately this time it sounds like ordinary fans have had enough and want the NFL to clean up its act. Accountability is really not that hard to define. In its simplest form, when you get caught speeding you get instant accountability. We ask people around us everyday to be accountable for their actions.....just try and get a teenager to explain why they didn't come home on time. It is my belief that the only logical conclusion your argument leads to is that we shouldn't do anything.
            I did not intend to give the impression I am not a strong supporter of personal accountability. Just the opposite in fact. I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that it should not be that hard to accept accountability. You do something wrong. Stand up and accept the consequences. Sadly that is not the reality of our society at this time.

            Currently I do not see any widespread moral accountability you are describing. Too may examples of how easy it is for public impressions to deflect personal responsibility. Too many examples of it being ok to deflect blame and accountability to others or "the system" then expecting people to "do the right thing".

            We see and do not speak out about or heroes or family and friends every day. Get stopped for a speeding, "everyone else is going too fast too". Get that camera ticket, "the camera is unfair" Have a positive for marijuana for the fourth time "the test was too sensitive". Or maybe "the collector was inept".

            For example: Lance Armstrong was hammered because of public outcry. What was so different when Ryan Braun was busted for PED usage and adamantly denying it? Wasn't Braun an All star after that? What about Ray Lewis. He was in the car. He saw or knows what happened as a man was stabbed to death. He refused to cooperate. Yet a year later he was an All Pro and recently celebrated for his career. Accountability?

            On bigger societal issues we see technicalities undermine cases every day. That is the entire job of a defense attorney. And they are celebrated when they win. Whether they are defending the rights of a domestic abuser or a Corporate financial manipulator, it is about the legal deal and the concept of "never admit to anything" that wins the argument.

            Or in my job I see underage students with Facebook pages depicting gang affiliation, flashing gang signs, drug usage and holding weapons but when asked they (and more importantly their parents) deny any connections and are shocked when they are held accountable. "they are just playing around"...

            I agree we have to maintain personal standards but as a society we are a long way from being accountable for our actions. When was the last time you heard someone say. "Yes. I did it."

            Comment


            • #21
              The NFLs biggest problem is the power the media now holds. They need to either let the due process play out or sit the player until it does.

              You can't have one team sitting the guy out, another team flip flopping on what to do, and another team playing their guy.

              They need to commit either one way or another. Even if the media doesn't like it, they will get over it over in a couple weeks anyways

              Comment


              • #22
                I'm personally not a fan of the way the NFL is handling these situations. I think in regards to RR, he and the NFLPA are withing their rights to do what they are doing. Goodell playing to Social Media is bad medicine and not a good precedent to start. The individual teams can do what they want and how they want, as long as they aren't pulling "double jeopardy" as well.

                I feel that Goodell should be in hot water and should be the only one in danger of losing his job. He has been the only one that has been dishonest in all situations. He would have been better off sticking to his guns and standing behind his 2-game suspension on RR. Bu instead he chose to bow to "Social America" and now he finds himself layering mis-truth upon mis-truth. And with each layer, the glass walls around him continue to shatter.
                #swapping

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by FR Tim View Post
                  No charges pressed. But there was a lot of skepticism about the facts. Guns reported to have been shown by Doom and Ramirez. They denied it but the guns were found in both cars.

                  Imagine the outcome if the incident had been captured on tape and shown on TMZ. Three cars in traffic filled with knuckle heads yelling, honking and throwing things. Then two get out of their cars and look menacingly at the woman in the third car. Does not play well on tape. Should the punishment change if a tape surfaced today?
                  Should it change if a tape was surfaced after the fact....no. Would it....well...based on the Rice situation yes. In all fairness the incident, if it had been caught on tape would have been part of the police investigation and would have also been part of the evidence being brought forward.

                  Part of me wonders if in this situation there was potential video evidence which didn't match this "victims" account of the events which transpired.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FR Tim View Post
                    I did not intend to give the impression I am not a strong supporter of personal accountability. Just the opposite in fact. I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion that it should not be that hard to accept accountability. You do something wrong. Stand up and accept the consequences. Sadly that is not the reality of our society at this time.

                    Currently I do not see any widespread moral accountability you are describing. Too may examples of how easy it is for public impressions to deflect personal responsibility. Too many examples of it being ok to deflect blame and accountability to others or "the system" then expecting people to "do the right thing".

                    We see and do not speak out about or heroes or family and friends every day. Get stopped for a speeding, "everyone else is going too fast too". Get that camera ticket, "the camera is unfair" Have a positive for marijuana for the fourth time "the test was too sensitive". Or maybe "the collector was inept".

                    For example: Lance Armstrong was hammered because of public outcry. What was so different when Ryan Braun was busted for PED usage and adamantly denying it? Wasn't Braun an All star after that? What about Ray Lewis. He was in the car. He saw or knows what happened as a man was stabbed to death. He refused to cooperate. Yet a year later he was an All Pro and recently celebrated for his career. Accountability?

                    On bigger societal issues we see technicalities undermine cases every day. That is the entire job of a defense attorney. And they are celebrated when they win. Whether they are defending the rights of a domestic abuser or a Corporate financial manipulator, it is about the legal deal and the concept of "never admit to anything" that wins the argument.

                    Or in my job I see underage students with Facebook pages depicting gang affiliation, flashing gang signs, drug usage and holding weapons but when asked they (and more importantly their parents) deny any connections and are shocked when they are held accountable. "they are just playing around"...

                    I agree we have to maintain personal standards but as a society we are a long way from being accountable for our actions. When was the last time you heard someone say. "Yes. I did it."

                    I think you are absolutely right about people no longer being accountable for their actions. That is why I think it is imperative that we invite our sports heroes to do the right thing and take ownership of their actions rather than blaming it on others. I believe we can and must insist that people be held accountable.
                    Il a été soit couché ou alors qu'il est étendu maintenant.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Larryh View Post
                      Unfortunately you might be right. There might be some collateral damage that is deemed acceptable in order to do the appropriate thing. However that is not what I am suggesting. What I am saying is that trying to apply a black and white solution to problems that always are colored in gray will constantly get the NFL in trouble. I am positive that the powers that be never predicted the backlash they would get because of their ham handed handling of these issues. The NFL and other pro leagues by the way, don't understand that all people want is for people in high places to be held accountable for their actions. I am held to a very high standard in my profession and if I do something inappropriate then I am suspended with pay. If it is proven that I was criminal in my behavior then my employment is immediately terminated. I see no reason that the same standards shouldn't apply to our sports heroes. If we can get beyond the punishment mentality into a mentality that encourages responsibility and accountability I believe the consequences become easier to determine.
                      I agree with mostly everything which you're stating ^ in principle but where I am truthfully struggling is when I attempt to apply this practically. I think this is the most difficult thing for most people to understand. For the same reasons why we are all pounding on the table for these athletes to be held accountable is the same reason why they are often targeted by those who are just after money or their own ten minutes of fame.

                      For example. If you or I were in a fight and it made the news our organizations would likely call "that meeting". In the case of a professional athlete it is more than possible, if not feasible that someone would pick a fight hoping they make the news alongside that athlete. Now in a world of accountability that player would be suspended until an investigation even though they did absolutely nothing wrong.

                      This example obviously greatly differs from either of the current examples currently facing the NFL but it is one scenario where I can see a 'blanket' treatment of all issues being ineffective and potentially detrimental.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                        I think the Ravens would take him back. Their fans don't seem to mind what he did.
                        I think so too. I don't think the power of the social backlash will be that great if they do. They can just claim knee jerk reaction/going off the league stance to justify bringing him back if this suspension is lifted soon. I hate what Rice did, but he should have just served his original 2 game suspension. The league should have learned from this and moved on, but instead they thought they could do what they wanted, which is not prudent. I am glad they are now appointing people to handle these types of situations instead of Goodell.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Rich_C View Post
                          I agree with mostly everything which you're stating ^ in principle but where I am truthfully struggling is when I attempt to apply this practically. I think this is the most difficult thing for most people to understand. For the same reasons why we are all pounding on the table for these athletes to be held accountable is the same reason why they are often targeted by those who are just after money or their own ten minutes of fame.

                          For example. If you or I were in a fight and it made the news our organizations would likely call "that meeting". In the case of a professional athlete it is more than possible, if not feasible that someone would pick a fight hoping they make the news alongside that athlete. Now in a world of accountability that player would be suspended until an investigation even though they did absolutely nothing wrong.

                          This example obviously greatly differs from either of the current examples currently facing the NFL but it is one scenario where I can see a 'blanket' treatment of all issues being ineffective and potentially detrimental.
                          Which brings me right back to my point about how difficult it is to adjudicate problems that are in the gray area of life. I appreciate your point of view and completely agree that it is difficult to come up with a one size fits all solution. However just because it is hard doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Given that I think I have pretty much beat this horse to death so I wish you good luck and thank you for starting this thread. I believe it is a subject worthy of examination. Go Broncos!!
                          Il a été soit couché ou alors qu'il est étendu maintenant.

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                          • #28
                            I was always told a man is innocent until proven guilty. Now I've never taken that seriously - because that's not how it feels for an accused person. An accused person is usually in jail until trial - or bailed. So it doesn't really mean a whole lot when my govt drones on about 'innocent until proven guilty'. So - it's kind of the same thing here.

                            Goodell's hard-line approach is putting himself on the chopping block and that's why he probably wishes he never started this. There's no going back for him now though is there- not unless the NFLPA can bring down some justice of their own. And Goodell might be able to help that happen should he want to back off.

                            It always used to be 'wait till trial is over'. It's so clean that way. Why not just do it that way? Instead, Goodell looks at what evidence he can gather- talks to the accused and makes an NFL decision. NFL can do it - players agreed to it. But is it good -


                            NO
                            The beatings will continue until morale improves....

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by broncolee View Post
                              I think the Ravens would take him back. Their fans don't seem to mind what he did.
                              Bisciotti has publicly stated that Rice is done in Bmore.

                              And just because a portion of the fanbase believes that because of his sincere remorse, seven years of service to the community, and exemplary record prior to this incident, that he should be allowed to serve his punishment and be forgiven if he makes amends, does not mean that ANYONE condones what he did.

                              That comment is ignorant and insulting. You have a smack forum for that.

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