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Vonta Davis versus Denver's receivers

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  • fallforward3y+
    replied
    Originally posted by ruksak View Post
    Refresh my memory. I am a bit shy on short term memory.....so .....

    What I saw was Davis cutting off Manning's favorite placement for a downfield pass, the receivers outside shoulder, which he used twice to efficacy on downfield throws.

    Landry inside;


    Davis goes outside;
    I think that touches on another good point, Davis cutting off routes may lead to passes being off target if the QB was expecting to throw it somewhere else. He may have helped cause the passes to be off target, so saying 'if Manning had been on target he would have been beat' may not mean DT had the edge, if he's contributing to passes being off target by forcing receivers to go on different routes.

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  • fallforward3y+
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    He had Davis beat multiple times, Manning just predetermined his routes. I'm not arguing the previous 2 games, just not this game.
    I didn't really see much of that. If he did get behind him, I doubt he got far behind, and considering Davis seems to have a great ability to recover from being in bad position, it's hard to say that really constitutes having the edge.

    I've seen Vonta Davis recover from being in bad position, like when he dove to bat down a pass that seemed to be intended for Emanuel Sanders, I think I also saw him dive forward to bat down a pass intended for DT when DT seemed to be a bit in front of him.

    I just don't see much there to say that DT had the edge, and I don't remember him getting behind Davis too often.

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  • Spice 1
    replied
    All I'll say about Davis is that I figured him for a top 10 corner coming into the season. Where you have him now is up for debate, but he definitely hasn't gone backwards.

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  • ruksak
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    Then your recall needs a tune-up
    Refresh my memory. I am a bit shy on short term memory.....so .....

    What I saw was Davis cutting off Manning's favorite placement for a downfield pass, the receivers outside shoulder, which he used twice to efficacy on downfield throws.

    Landry inside;


    Davis goes outside;
    Last edited by ruksak; 01-13-2015, 09:15 AM.

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  • the0rangecrush
    replied
    Originally posted by ruksak View Post
    The only pass I recall DT getting ahead of his cover guy, it was Landry he beat in the endzone.
    Then your recall needs a tune-up

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  • the0rangecrush
    replied
    Originally posted by fallforward3y+ View Post
    I'm not sure how you figure that. He may have gotten behind him a time or two, but not by much I don't think. I don't think that means he had the edge.

    DEN only had 21 yards when throwing at Davis I believe in the playoff game, and I believe it was 5 in week 1, and 8 back in 2013. Sure, there have probably been bad throws his way, but most CBs benefit from that at times I would imagine. If a guy plays 3 games against a team and 21 yards is the most he gave up, I would say he probably did very well and had the edge.

    I doubt that the majority of passes thrown his way that fell incomplete were simply bad throws.
    He had Davis beat multiple times, Manning just predetermined his routes. I'm not arguing the previous 2 games, just not this game.

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  • canadiansbronco
    replied
    DT could of had at least one more TD if it wasnt for manning being so off, but yeh Davis kinda has his number

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  • ruksak
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    I disagree, DT had the edge last game.
    The only pass I recall DT getting ahead of his cover guy, it was Landry he beat in the endzone.

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  • fallforward3y+
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    I disagree, DT had the edge last game.
    I'm not sure how you figure that. He may have gotten behind him a time or two, but not by much I don't think. I don't think that means he had the edge.

    DEN only had 21 yards when throwing at Davis I believe in the playoff game, and I believe it was 5 in week 1, and 8 back in 2013. Sure, there have probably been bad throws his way, but most CBs benefit from that at times I would imagine. If a guy plays 3 games against a team and 21 yards is the most he gave up, I would say he probably did very well and had the edge.

    I doubt that the majority of passes thrown his way that fell incomplete were simply bad throws.

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  • the0rangecrush
    replied
    Originally posted by fallforward3y+ View Post
    Manning was kind of off target, but even so I think it had a lot to do with Davis. Plus, it wasn't just this game, he's had the edge the last 2 it seems. He was in bad position a few times, but at times he recovered, like with a dive to bat down a pass. He also dropped 2 picks. DBs will get beat sometimes, but overall he seemingly won the battle.

    While Manning wasn't perfectly on target a lot of the time, a lot of it had to do with Davis's coverage. Like Ruksak said, it made the margin for error small. It was tough to throw Davis's way, and when he seems to have the edge 3 times in a row it seems like there's evidence that he has their number.
    I disagree, DT had the edge last game.

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  • fallforward3y+
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    Was he beat like a drum? No, but he was not as shutdown as the OP made it seem yesterday. The issue with the way Davis was beat yesterday were long plays. Like you said Peyton usually hits those, if he had we are singing a different tune here. I'm not saying Davis is bad, hes very very good just yesterday had less to due with him and more to due with Manning
    Manning was kind of off target, but even so I think it had a lot to do with Davis. Plus, it wasn't just this game, he's had the edge the last 2 it seems. He was in bad position a few times, but at times he recovered, like with a dive to bat down a pass. He also dropped 2 picks. DBs will get beat sometimes, but overall he seemingly won the battle.

    While Manning wasn't perfectly on target a lot of the time, a lot of it had to do with Davis's coverage. Like Ruksak said, it made the margin for error small. It was tough to throw Davis's way, and when he seems to have the edge 3 times in a row it seems like there's evidence that he has their number.

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  • fallforward3y+
    replied
    Originally posted by ruksak View Post
    This is really hard to articulate, other than to just say, Vontae is one of the best CB's in the league and the media hasn't tuned into him for whatever reason. Statistically, he is among the very best.

    Other reasons may be; He is very good at disrupting his receiver early in his route. Davis takes advantage of the 5 yard bump zone, and for an offense predicated on sharp timing, such as the Broncos, this may explain why he seems even more effective against the Broncos specifically.

    Beyond that, your guess is as good as mine. Davis is a premium NFL CB. It becomes apparent even more so when he's out. Which happened in the Pittsburgh game. As soon as he went out, Antonio Brown killed us. I suppose the short answer is; He's just that good.
    There you are! Lol, I was hoping for your input as a Colts fan.

    I do agree that he is that good, maybe even the best CB in the league. It is actually very surprising that the media hasn't given him as much attention, especially considering that he has had great performances in prime time games. I do believe he is a great corner, and skill wise not overmatched by Denver's receivers at all.

    I just think there is more to it than that, because Denver's receivers are great too. When 2 great players face each other, I would expect the match up to usually seem about 50/50. Sometimes one player wins the battle, the other time the other player wins the battle and etc. However, 3 times in a row now Davis seems to have had a strong edge over them like what I've never seen with Manning in Denver. Some teams have held down their offense, but I can't recall a time where it's been largely due to struggling to complete passes at one player.

    It leads me to believe there is likely more to it. It's like when a good team has another good teams' number, like SFO over GB. The Niners are good, but so are the Packers..4-0 over a 3 season span, and beating a team twice on their home field that hasn't lost to any other team at home in that span(with their starting QB in), is a sign that that team just has their number IMO.

    I think what you said about him disrupting the routes may play a role in it. It seems Manning and his receivers have relied largely on timing in the past, granted most QBs do but he seems to thrive especially off of timing, like with Marvin Harrison. I would imagine throwing off Manning and his receivers' timing is very hard, but when you do it it seems to 'level the playing field' a lot.

    Him being a great corner, plus what you said about routes, perhaps also some factors I mentioned in my last paragraph of the original post may all be what causes it. It's an interesting element of the game, that there is evidence of it being a factor but it's often hard to say why IMO.

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  • the0rangecrush
    replied
    Originally posted by ruksak View Post
    The hardest thing to do as a CB is to play consistently. Even the greatest CB's to ever play the game are going to get beat a few times per game.



    True, but those two slight (very slight) overthrows to Sanders were into double/triple coverage. He had more favorable match-ups elsewhere but yesterday, for whatever reasons one wishes to attach, Peyton was forcing things.

    He typically hits those.

    Anywho, the coverage was pretty tight and the margin for error was small. Part of the credit for that goes to the DB's for being on-spot.
    Was he beat like a drum? No, but he was not as shutdown as the OP made it seem yesterday. The issue with the way Davis was beat yesterday were long plays. Like you said Peyton usually hits those, if he had we are singing a different tune here. I'm not saying Davis is bad, hes very very good just yesterday had less to due with him and more to due with Manning

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  • ruksak
    replied
    Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    In all honesty, Davis wasn't all that great. In fact multiple times WR had the step. However, Manning targets matchups and typically avoids evenly matched ones.
    The hardest thing to do as a CB is to play consistently. Even the greatest CB's to ever play the game are going to get beat a few times per game.

    Second, when Manning did go deep he simply couldn't hit.
    True, but those two slight (very slight) overthrows to Sanders were into double/triple coverage. He had more favorable match-ups elsewhere but yesterday, for whatever reasons one wishes to attach, Peyton was forcing things.

    He typically hits those.

    Anywho, the coverage was pretty tight and the margin for error was small. Part of the credit for that goes to the DB's for being on-spot.

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  • the0rangecrush
    replied
    In all honesty, Davis wasn't all that great. In fact multiple times WR had the step. However, Manning targets matchups and typically avoids evenly matched ones. Second, when Manning did go deep he simply couldn't hit.

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