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It Kills Me To Say It, But The Pats Should Beat Seattle

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  • #61
    The one thing that Roger Goodell said at his presser yesterday that resonated with me was the fact that, it doesn't matter how much of an advantage was garnered by breaking the rules. But the simple fact that the rules were broken at all cannot be mitigated because it didn't turn into a huge advantage. Goodell emphasizes integrity and protecting the shield and breaking the rules in counter to that. It's that simple
    The beatings will continue until morale improves....

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    • #62
      Originally posted by fallforward3y+ View Post
      I don't really buy deflating balls as a huge advantage anyway. It may make it easier to catch, but it seems like that only matters if guys are wide open anyway. If a defense is letting a lot of receivers get wide open, chances are they aren't doing very well and it has little to do with any deflated balls.

      Both IND and BAL deserved to lose to NE IMO. People can talk all they want about asterisks, but it really doesn't seem like enough to discredit them of the win.

      There may very well not be a single win in the history of the NFL that isn't 'tainted' in some way. You could argue that a missed holding penalty makes a win tainted(and people have actually done that, see DAL/DET), and there are probably at least 5 of those every game, and at least 1 that favors both teams playing I would guess.

      It just seems to me like jealousy/bitterness to claim they now don't deserve to be in the Super Bowl.
      The point is, that those "tainted" wins as you put it, are close games which are usually decided by any number of small factors that change momentum. This happens constantly in NFL games -it's a fact of life, the Pats know this and do little things to shift that difference in close games to their advantage, starting with taping opponent signals!

      The difference between a catch here and there (because the ball is easier to throw and grab) and missing those, may be the difference in converting downs, keeping drives alive, and sustaining rhythm and momentum. A deflated ball is easier to hold onto and Pats fumbles have decreased dramatically since 2007, in contrast to the rest of the league. There's no more important stat than turnover differential!

      I actually rooted for the Patriots in their first four SB's (to include their first two wins), was a big Belichick and Brady fan initially, but after Spygate and other behavioral problems, no more! I'd have nothing but respect and admiration for them if these things hadn't occurred, but now I think they're way out of ethical integrity and just despicable! And I'd think this even if I was a NFC fan, so this doesn't have anything to do with rivalry and butthurt -the accusation of which is the standard Patsy troll defense mechanism. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
      Last edited by L.M.; 01-31-2015, 04:45 PM.

      Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

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      • #63
        Originally posted by LynchMobster View Post
        The point is, that those "tainted" wins as you put it, are close games which are usually decided by any number of small factors that change momentum. This happens constantly in NFL games -it's a fact of life, the Pats know this and do little things to shift that difference in close games to their advantage, starting with taping opponent signals!

        The difference between a catch here and there because the ball is easier to throw and grab, may be the difference in converting downs, keeping drives alive, sustaining rhythm and momentum. A deflated ball is easier to hold onto and Pats fumbles have decreased dramatically since 2007, in contrast to the rest of the league. There's no more important stat than turnover differential!

        I actually rooted for the Patriots in their first four SB's (to include their first two wins), was a big Belichick and Brady fan initially, but after Spygate and other behavioral problems, no more! I'd have nothing but respect and admiration for them if these things hadn't occurred, but now I think they're way out of ethical integrity and just despicable! And I'd think this even if I was a NFC fan, so this doesn't have anything to do with rivalry and butthurt -the accusation of which is the standard Patsy troll defense mechanism. And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
        With momentum shifts, like you said they happen a lot. If you let a team ride off of a momentum boost for a long time in a game, your team likely is not very good. It's why I almost never buy anything as an excuse for a loss if the reason is due to changing a momentum shift. I've seen teams get a turnover that could be a big momentum boost, and then turn the ball over right back to the other team on the following possession. There is often no good evidence that something actually would have caused a team to play well because of a momentum boost.

        Honestly, I think the rule is a bit silly, so it's hard for me to hold much against a team for breaking it.

        Maybe it's not about rivalry and butthurt for you, but regardless of why you may feel this way it really just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

        I don't buy that this is some league full of teams/coaches with the utmost integrity and only NE would ever resort to something like bending the rules a little bit to help win games. Think about what teams do when there is a play that they think may be challenged that may go against them....they don't try and give them plenty of time because they would only want the yards they got if they got them to the letter of the rule.....they rush to the line, to try and run a play in hopes of the refs never getting a look at it, and will take the gain whether it should have counted based on the rule book.

        Another example is with DBs. I have never been around a coach that didn't have an attitude of 'it's only against the rules if you get caught' with pass interference.

        If it's something like the Saints bounty gate, then yeah I'd find it dispicable, but deflated balls doesn't seem like that big of a deal. It more so seems like good strategy to me.
        Last edited by fallforward3y+; 01-31-2015, 05:07 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by fallforward3y+ View Post
          With momentum shifts, like you said they happen a lot. If you let a team ride off of a momentum boost for a long time in a game, your team likely is not very good. It's why I almost never buy anything as an excuse for a loss if the reason is due to changing a momentum shift. I've seen teams get a turnover that could be a big momentum boost, and then turn the ball over right back to the other team on the following possession. There is often no good evidence that something actually would have caused a team to play well because of a momentum boost.

          Honestly, I think the rule is a bit silly, so it's hard for me to hold much against a team for breaking it.

          Maybe it's not about rivalry and butthurt for you, but regardless of why you may feel this way it really just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

          I don't buy that this is some league full of teams/coaches with the utmost integrity and only NE would ever resort to something like bending the rules a little bit to help win games. Think about what teams do when there is a play that they think may be challenged that may go against them....they don't try and give them plenty of time because they would only want the yards they got if they got them to the letter of the rule.....they rush to the line, to try and run a play in hopes of the refs never getting a look at it, and will take the gain whether it should have counted based on the rule book.

          Another example is with DBs. I have never been around a coach that didn't have an attitude of 'it's only against the rules if you get caught' with pass interference.

          If it's something like the Saints bounty gate, then yeah I'd find it dispicable, but deflated balls doesn't seem like that big of a deal. It more so seems like good strategy to me.
          What is silly about the rule? That PSI needs to be in a certain range for all teams;

          You know how it helps a team throw, catch, and not fumble. Any little bit that it helps means that it's that much harder for the opponent to throw, catch and create fumbles or not fumble. So you might as well look at it as twice the advantage that you think it is. Still not convinced it's a rule that has a place in the rule books? Well, even if you're right and the rule shouldn't even be in the rule books but is, is it ok that a team should be allowed to comply with only the rules that make bigger differences toward the outcome of a game? Is ok for a team to decide, we'll comply with rule 13 but rule 29a doesn't really seem to make much difference and our QB likes the ball deflated a bit so we'll just ignore that rule.
          The beatings will continue until morale improves....

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          • #65
            The rules are there to be followed by all because it makes the playing field consistent for all and breaking the rules is a bad thing, even if not much was gained by it. Why is that so hard for people to grasp that cheating is cheating? Of course Godell is buddies with Kraft so of course they will get off. Watch tomorrow if the Pat's win, all talk about cheating will disappear and it will be Bellicheck is a HOF coach and Brady is the most successful Qb's ever.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by trc1962 View Post
              The rules are there to be followed by all because it makes the playing field consistent for all and breaking the rules is a bad thing, even if not much was gained by it. Why is that so hard for people to grasp that cheating is cheating? Of course Godell is buddies with Kraft so of course they will get off. Watch tomorrow if the Pat's win, all talk about cheating will disappear and it will be Bellicheck is a HOF coach and Brady is the most successful Qb's ever.
              I don't know why people can't grasp this. Because they are dense? Think it doesn't really give that much of an advantage? Because supposedly everyone does it? The league is out to get the Pats?

              Any time one does anything to give oneself an unfair advantage it matters. My sense is that it probably was done more to limit fumbles than anything. But, I'm expecting a complete exoneration and a apology from Goodell. If that happens, I think I'm gonna blow a gasket.

              I was so disgusted at Kraft's demand for an apology to begin with. Who the hell does he think he is? An apology for the NFL doing their jobs? Are you kidding me? No, if no wrong doing, you get cleared, you don't demand an apology when there was ample evidence to warrant an investigation.

              The level of arrogance and sense of entitlement is why I can't stand the freaking Patriots.
              Adopted Bronco: DeMarcus Ware

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              • #67
                Originally posted by dizzolve View Post
                What is silly about the rule? That PSI needs to be in a certain range for all teams;

                You know how it helps a team throw, catch, and not fumble. Any little bit that it helps means that it's that much harder for the opponent to throw, catch and create fumbles or not fumble. So you might as well look at it as twice the advantage that you think it is. Still not convinced it's a rule that has a place in the rule books? Well, even if you're right and the rule shouldn't even be in the rule books but is, is it ok that a team should be allowed to comply with only the rules that make bigger differences toward the outcome of a game? Is ok for a team to decide, we'll comply with rule 13 but rule 29a doesn't really seem to make much difference and our QB likes the ball deflated a bit so we'll just ignore that rule.
                It seems silly to me because I just think it's something teams should be allowed to do, for whatever advantage it may give them, it's part of strategy. Teams should figure out what PSI they like they ball at, so they they aren't at a disadvantage. I like that to be part of the game, finding strategies to get the upper hand. If teams don't use strategies like that, then they will be at a disadvantage. Even if it gives teams an advantage(and I'm a bit skeptical about that), I think it should be something they should be able to do to get an advantage, a form of strategy.

                More so than that they should get away with it though, my argument is that they still deserved the win. I mean come on, if we're deciding whether or not they still deserve the win, why would the effect it had on the game not play a role in determining that?

                If they should be punished, I think it should be by losing draft picks rather than being stripped of the win.

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                • #68
                  NFL wouldn't strip them of a win if they're waiting for after the SuperBowl. I don't know if there's any precedent on that but there's just no way they'll do that

                  You might be right that teams should be allowed to adjust the PSI however they want it. Maybe I dunno. But until then, you just have to follow the rules.

                  I anticipate the whole chain of custody of the footballs moving away from teams and toward NFL Officials dealing with the 'official balls' for each and every game. That of course means there might need to be a 'conditioning' of the ball's surface at the factory to get it closer to what NFL QB's would want. We have the technology. Just make it all official -and make it so that every team has to use a ball that is consistent from ball to ball and game to game and week to week.

                  But until then the rules are there - and if you don't follow them, you're cheating it IS that simple. And it is NOT fair.
                  The beatings will continue until morale improves....

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                  • #69
                    Idk, Kam Chancellor and that knee...

                    That's not good for Seattle.
                    sigpic

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      Seattle is a strong team, but they seem to be in too many close ones. Yesterday, they deserved to lose, and not just by a little. The fact their D kept the score down is a credit to their game, but to rely on a muffed onside kick, and a circus 2 pointer, along with 4 pics and 5 sacks on their guy, tells me they are ripe for a beating. You also have to think that they will be hurting, even 2 weeks from now. Thomas and Sherman will be tested.

                      I am not going to speak too positively about The Pats, because I just don't buy into their HC, or the whiny QB, or the fact that there's always something going on with this organization that makes you wonder what they are up to.....but right now, they are the better team.

                      Then again, Seattle has this "never say die" thing, and that can be infectious. But limiting Lynch and keeping a spy on Wilson pretty much shuts down their O, and I am not sure they can put enough pressure on Brady, given they hardly got to Rodgers.....and he was quite immobile and careful not to be aggravate the injury.

                      If I was a betting man, I'd go Pats.......



                      .........and then I'd punish myself for doing so.:brick:
                      I hate when I am "sort of" right sometimes! But it's like Seattle got repaid for what they did against The Pack. This loss hurts way more than it did GB, because The SB is not the place for a sad ending.

                      I will say that the injuries before this game did not hurt them, but as it turns out, the injuries during the game did, especially Lane. If he stays in the game, I don't think some of those TDs happen.

                      They did pressure Brady some, but The Pats game planned short passes to counter pressure.

                      Interestingly, the one guy I said they had to limit - Lynch, never got the chance when it counted most. Hmmmm....at least 2 plays to make one yard. Or at least fake it to him!!!

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                        I hate when I am "sort of" right sometimes! But it's like Seattle got repaid for what they did against The Pack. This loss hurts way more than it did GB, because The SB is not the place for a sad ending.

                        I will say that the injuries before this game did not hurt them, but as it turns out, the injuries during the game did, especially Lane. If he stays in the game, I don't think some of those TDs happen.

                        They did pressure Brady some, but The Pats game planned short passes to counter pressure.

                        Interestingly, the one guy I said they had to limit - Lynch, never got the chance when it counted most. Hmmmm....at least 2 plays to make one yard. Or at least fake it to him!!!
                        Chancellor and Earl were clearly hurting... They just werent flying around and hitting like they normally do. But yes... The Lane injury, and the Avril injury, clearly made the difference in the 4th.

                        This game just made me angrier at guys like Moore and Decker, to watch Butler and Edelman play with heart.... Only to feel betrayed by Moore and Decker in 2012 and 2013 playoffs.

                        Also, the NE OL another reason Pats one. Manning had no time, no pocket to work in...

                        Still, Pats got a bunch of breaks:

                        1. SEA Up 10, end of third, and Kearse drops the ball. Killer.
                        2. SEA Up 3, wilson overt he middle... To the 40... Wide open WR, blatant PI as DB grabs foot. No call. Huge break.
                        3. For some reason NE doesnt call a timeout. SEA is golden. Gain yards on 1st down, clock ticks down from 1 minute to 26 seconds... You have a timeout... Run it twice to Lynch and you win SB...

                        What brady did in the fourth quarter shows why he is one of the best ever late in the game... Right there with montana and elway. But how the game ended proves that legacies are skewed by perception... Manning a loser bc Moore allows a miracle hail mary or bc a fg shanks a kick? Brady a winner bc kicker hits the Fg or defense makes huge plays?

                        We say how GB marched down to get that FG two weeks ago... This SEa defense not the same as it was last Jan...

                        But... sEA didnt want to have Lynch score and be awarded the mvp... They want to transition to a Wilson-centric team and repair his image after a lackluster post season... They felt they were winning that game... So they wanted to dictate the terms.

                        Sure, they will scramble and declare they were attacking the weakness, as opposed to going with their strength. I dont buy it. They were going to give Wilson the shot to be the hero... Run the ball next two plays afterward.

                        They found out, too late... wilson is more of a game manager than a franchise qb. That throw has to be made low... Let crossing WR almost slide into the catch falling into endzone. Impossible for the DB to come through WR if ball is lower.
                        Last edited by fraguela09; 02-01-2015, 11:16 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
                          Chancellor and Earl were clearly hurting... They just werent flying around and hitting like they normally do. But yes... The Lane injury, and the Avril injury, clearly made the difference in the 4th.

                          This game just made me angrier at guys like Moore and Decker, to watch Butler and Edelman play with heart.... Only to feel betrayed by Moore and Decker in 2012 and 2013 playoffs.

                          Also, the NE OL another reason Pats one. Manning had no time, no pocket to work in...

                          Still, Pats got a bunch of breaks:

                          1. SEA Up 10, end of third, and Kearse drops the ball. Killer.
                          2. SEA Up 3, wilson overt he middle... To the 40... Wide open WR, blatant PI as DB grabs foot. No call. Huge break.
                          3. For some reason NE doesnt call a timeout. SEA is golden. Gain yards on 1st down, clock ticks down from 1 minute to 26 seconds... You have a timeout... Run it twice to Lynch and you win SB...

                          What brady did in the fourth quarter shows why he is one of the best ever late in the game... Right there with montana and elway. But how the game ended proves that legacies are skewed by perception... Manning a loser bc Moore allows a miracle hail mary or bc a fg shanks a kick? Brady a winner bc kicker hits the Fg or defense makes huge plays?

                          We say how GB marched down to get that FG two weeks ago... This SEa defense not the same as it was last Jan...

                          But... sEA didnt want to have Lynch score and be awarded the mvp... They want to transition to a Wilson-centric team and repair his image after a lackluster post season... They felt they were winning that game... So they wanted to dictate the terms.

                          Sure, they will scramble and declare they were attacking the weakness, as opposed to going with their strength. I dont buy it. They were going to give Wilson the shot to be the hero... Run the ball next two plays afterward.

                          They found out, too late... wilson is more of a game manager than a franchise qb. That throw has to be made low... Let crossing WR almost slide into the catch falling into endzone. Impossible for the DB to come through WR if ball is lower.
                          Ok come on....do you really believe they didn't call that play because they didn't want Lynch to win MVP? What makes you so sure Lynch gets MVP if he scores anyway? Without the Seahawks big plays down field in the passing game, they probably aren't even in that game. Chris Matthews was probably the Seahawks MVP in the Super Bowl.

                          You think 1 play is indicative of Wilson being a game manager? I don't think he is, but even if I did think so I don't think 1 play is indicative of that. Manning made a bad throw on a pick 6 in the SB against the Saints, was he a game manager back then? Come on dude, lol.

                          I keep hearing about what a terrible call that was, with people seemingly acting like they win if they give it to Lynch. Maybe they do, but the Pats stopped Lynch in short yardage at a point earlier in the game, and have Wilfork in the middle. There is no guarantee they win it with a short yardage run to Lynch.

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