GOAT - QBs - My god, not this again?

[TheArtofManning]

Hello all,
Nice to be back, albeit in a small capacity.
I was on the ESPN website and came across another GOAT article. This one, is specifically about QBs since 1978. The reasoning, is that's when the NFL changed blocking and coverage rules. So they excluded Bradshaw, Staubach (I assume), Tarkenton, and of course those "that came before", such as Unitas, Graham etc.

Here is the link:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20096209/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-best-quarterbacks-modern-era-2017

To get to the pain quickly, this was overall ranking: Numbers in (parentheses indicate highest and lowest rank)
1) Brady (1,6)
2) Peyton (1,5)
3) Montana (1,9)
4) Elway (1,8)
5) Rodgers (3,NR)
6) Marino (3,NR)
6) Favre (4,NR)
8) S.Young (2,NR)
9) Brees (4,NR)
10) Fouts (4,NR)
11) Big Ben
11) Warner
13) Aikman
14) Moon
15) Kelly
16) Eli

They didn't list high/low ranks for any QB outside the top 10.
I was shocked somebody ranked Brady as low as 6th, and Montana as low as 9th. Also, suprised that someone ranked Young as #2.
The reality is, with Brady's two recent Rings, he will own the top spot for likely evermore, among those that we are supposed to listen to.....
About a year ago, John Clayton had Brady, Montana, Peyton, as top 3, I forgot the rest of his list.

A little summer reading perhaps?

[gerontion]

As an Elway fan I can live with this. At least he's ranked higher than Marino, Young, and Favre, as he should be. I still contend he's the most talented QB ever, and he had less help in terms of supporting cast and coaching than the guys listed ahead of him.

[Hadez]

Montana impressed me with what he did in KC. Maybe not as glorified as othed body of works from other QBs but watching him play for KC made me realize it was not just the system in SF.

Tom Brady is the no doubt number 1. Flame me I do not care...it is true.

Eli does not belong on the list. Getting the NY discount imo

Favre should be much lower but he is more popular of a person

[TheArtofManning]

If you read between the lines so to speak, on all of the comments from the experts, it often goes something like this:
"If QBa had had better defenses or better teams, he would have won more Rings"
Or, QBb, benefited from great defenses, but still "won when it mattered" and so on and so on.

What they are really saying, is that you cannot separate a QB from his team, or the accomplishments of his team.
Everyone on here has said and knows instinctively, that Elway's teams in the 80s weren't as good as their SB opponents (in those 3 losses to Wash, SF and NYG)
So, what if that had continued for the rest of his career? No Rings. On the other hand, what if Elway changes places with Montana in 1985 per se? Many more Rings.
What if Brady is drafted by the NY Jets instead? His career may have been much more like a Phil Rivers or maybe like a Drew Brees, but certainly not what it's been like.
What if Peyton had been drafted by a crappy team like the Indianapolis Colts?
Sure, he would have improved the team, but had a very hard time winning much hardware.

It's all so team centric.

[BroncosDivision]

Fouts and Aikman over Kelly? Funny list.

[Dennis.1960]

I have a bone to pick with any list that ranks Montana higher than Elway. Remove Bill Walsh and his West Coast Offense (which George Seifert inherited) from the equation and Montana would have been just a very good QB who never would have won a SB (which is precisely what he accomplished in his post-Walsh/Seifert career in KC). He never possessed the awesome physical skills of Elway and was the definition of "game manager" before anyone invented the term. While Elway was loading average teams on his back and winning AFC championships through sheer force of will, Montana was winning SB's throwing 5 yard hitch passes to Rice and Taylor who turned them into 90 yard TD's (not to mention swing passes to Roger Craig and Wendell Tyler which usually guaranteed at least a 1st down).

Maybe I'm biased because I spent Elway's playing years living in the SF bay area enduring constant "Joe is the GOAT" raving from the so called "49er faithful" and "objective" journalists like Mark Purdy of the SJ Mercury who actually called the '89 Broncos "The Hilarious Horses" in the SB Sunday edtion of the Mercury for daring to oppose his darling 9ers in SB XXIV...BUT...if Elway would have had Bill Walsh rather than Dan Reeves as his 1st HC he would have won so many SB's that Brady would still be playing catch-up

[Hadez]

Fouts and Aikman over Kelly? Funny list.

I think Fouts was better. Surprised he got over Aikman tho

[BroncosDivision]

I think Fouts was better. Surprised he got over Aikman tho

Fair enough. You can definitely make a case for Fouts. :thumb:

I personally have Kelly over Fouts and Aikman shouldn't even be on that list (how is Staubach vs Aikman even a thing? lol). I'd also take Marino over Montana despite the four rings. But hey, two Broncos legends in top 5. Not too shabby.

The top looks very close to my personal top 5 I posted in smack the other day.

[Taos_Broncomaniac]

As an Elway fan I can live with this. At least he's ranked higher than Marino, Young, and Favre, as he should be. I still contend he's the most talented QB ever, and he had less help in terms of supporting cast and coaching than the guys listed ahead of him.

I'll second that.

[TheArtofManning]

I have a bone to pick with any list that ranks Montana higher than Elway. Remove Bill Walsh and his West Coast Offense (which George Seifert inherited) from the equation and Montana would have been just a very good QB who never would have won a SB (which is precisely what he accomplished in his post-Walsh/Seifert career in KC). He never possessed the awesome physical skills of Elway and was the definition of "game manager" before anyone invented the term. While Elway was loading average teams on his back and winning AFC championships through sheer force of will, Montana was winning SB's throwing 5 yard hitch passes to Rice and Taylor who turned them into 90 yard TD's (not to mention swing passes to Roger Craig and Wendell Tyler which usually guaranteed at least a 1st down).

Maybe I'm biased because I spent Elway's playing years living in the SF bay area enduring constant "Joe is the GOAT" raving from the so called "49er faithful" and "objective" journalists like Mark Purdy of the SJ Mercury who actually called the '89 Broncos "The Hilarious Horses" in the SB Sunday edtion of the Mercury for daring to oppose his darling 9ers in SB XXIV...BUT...if Elway would have had Bill Walsh rather than Dan Reeves as his 1st HC he would have won so many SB's that Brady would still be playing catch-up

Your post outlines what I mentioned.
It is impossible to separate a QB from his team, and/or his coaching staff.
Great QB "raise all boats", but by how much? It is unfortunately, unanswerable.
As a Peyton fan, my biggest regret, is that he never had a big game in any of his 4 SBs. He had some big games in the postseason, but never in the SB. That tarnishes the legacy, unfortunately.
Brady has it all. The stats, the Rings, the accolades. He will go down as the GOAT in the eyes of people (like the ones who made this list). Elway and Manning will hang around that top 4-5 range with some "what ifs" thrown in.
At least they didn't end up like Marino.

[TheArtofManning]

Fair enough. You can definitely make a case for Fouts. :thumb:

I personally have Kelly over Fouts and Aikman shouldn't even be on that list (how is Staubach vs Aikman even a thing? lol). I'd also take Marino over Montana despite the four rings. But hey, two Broncos legends in top 5. Not too shabby.

The top looks very close to my personal top 5 I posted in smack the other day.

Again, Aikman of course benefits from 3 Rings, while Kelly and Fouts have none. Not saying it's right, but that's the thinking.
We've all seen Bradshaw fairly high on some lists too.
Probably 10 other QBs in the league at that time, would have won Rings on those Steeler teams.

[broncos SB2010]

Again, Aikman of course benefits from 3 Rings, while Kelly and Fouts have none. Not saying it's right, but that's the thinking.
We've all seen Bradshaw fairly high on some lists too.
Probably 10 other QBs in the league at that time, would have won Rings on those Steeler teams.

more Bradshaw disrespect. I'm sure it was the defense that won Bradshaw the SB MVP and NFL MVP too...right???

1978 SB MVP playing against Dallas who had the 2nd ranked D in the league allowing 250 yards/game and 208 points. In comparison, our D in 2015 allowed 283 yards/game and 296 points. Bradshaw threw 17/30 for 318 and 4 TDs.

In 1979...SB MVP again playing against the 7th ranked Rams D which allowed 284 points. Bradshaw threw for 14/21 for 309 yards and 2 TDs while the team only rushed for 84 yards.


In 1978...NFL MVP...most TDs and highest QB rating in the league...


yea....10 other QBs could have done that......

[Dennis.1960]

Elway and Manning will hang around that top 4-5 range with some "what ifs" thrown in.
At least they didn't end up like Marino.

Agreed. Before Shanny came back as HC and got us over the hump, I was truly concerned Elway would never have that SB win and was in real danger of not making the HOF because of it.

But hey, it all turned out pretty good in the end :lombardi:

[samparnell]

So, let's see. GOAT stands for Greatest of All Time. The site linked by the OP says since 1978. The NFL has existed since 1920. Since 1978 isn't Greatest of All Time, it's just since 1978. It should say QB ranking since 1978, not GOAT.

[samparnell]

I think Fouts was better. Surprised he got over Aikman tho

Don Coryell's passing attack is one of my favorite ones. The terminology and play calls are about as short and simple as it gets, plus it's very effective. Dan Fouts did a great job in Air Coryell. Coryell belongs in the HOF.