GOAT - QBs - My god, not this again?

[Rastic]

Sammy Baugh threw 6 TD passes in two games in the Forties. Since he played in a Single Wing offense, his position wasn't even called Quarterback, he was a Halfback (sometimes called Tailback, but that is a misnomer). The Single Wing wasn't the most effective passing formation and was eclipsed by the T, Split T and the Split T with motion which morphed into the Split Backs formation.

It would have been interesting if Sammy had played in the NFL in his college offense. In the 1930s, TCU coach Dutch Meyer spread the eligible receivers of the Single Wing and incorporated a short passing game that sounds a lot like Bill Walsh's WCO. When he retired in 1952, he wrote a book about it entitled Spread Formation Football. Meyer's offense was often called the Southwestern Spread. If Baugh had played in that offensive system in the NFL, his passing stats would have been greater.

In his book, My Kind of Football, NYG HOF coach Steve Owen contemplated using the Southwestern Spread as part of his offense, but was having success with his A Formation offense, so he didn't use it much. IDK if or how much the Southwestern Spread was used in the NFL before Split Back/under center formations took over and dominated for several decades. Today's spread/gun offenses look like the Southwestern Spread and play a lot like it, too. One of these days when I feel like spending c.$100 on a book, I'll obtain a copy of Spread Formation Football.

Sounds like a great resource. If you haven't already had the opportunity to read it, there are university libraries that carry it - of course if you have access. I know NMSU has a copy. You can also check library catalogs for books at worldcat.org. Just enter the book title and your zip code. It's pretty cool. http://www.worldcat.org/title/spread...ll/oclc/626440

Since you are more the historian, I am curious to know of the common names mentioned in QB discussions, what style offense is most represented either directly or antecedently?

[samparnell]

Sounds like a great resource. If you haven't already had the opportunity to read it, there are university libraries that carry it - of course if you have access. I know NMSU has a copy. You can also check library catalogs for books at worldcat.org. Just enter the book title and your zip code. It's pretty cool. http://www.worldcat.org/title/spread...ll/oclc/626440

Since you are more the historian, I am curious to know of the common names mentioned in QB discussions, what style offense is most represented either directly or antecedently?

Not quite sure what you are asking in that last part.

From the inception of the NFL in 1920, the Single Wing offense, both unbalanced and balanced line, dominated for almost thirty years. Sammy Baugh was a great Single Wing offense passer. Single Wing is the original "shotgun" having been invented by Glenn Warner in 1906.

George Halas wanted to install the T Formation (QB under center), but had to wait until college football was producing enough T Formation players. He worked closely with Clark Shaughnessy, Frank Leahy, Dana X. Bible and Don Faurot to develop T Formation football for the Bears. The T Formation was tight; then they split one of the Ends; finally, one of the Halfbacks was sent in motion. Sid Luckman was probably Halas' greatest T Formation QB in the Forties.

I think the last team to use the Single Wing was the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1952. Steve Owen used a variation of the Single Wing called the A Formation which was last used by the Giants in 1953, Owen's last year as their coach. One of Owen's assistants, Tom Landry, revived the direct snap formation of the Single Wing under the name "shotgun" when he was HC in Dallas. I can't remember exactly when he first used it, but I'm thinking it was in the Seventies.

After splitting one of the Ends and regularly sending one of the Halfbacks in motion, coaches realigned the Fullback and remaining Halfback so that they were split at approximately FB depth. The motion back became Z and could line up wide opposite the Split End, as a Wing next to the Y/Tight End, in the Slot or next to the X/Split End. This Split Backs formation began in the late Forties and was the dominant formation into the Eighties. Bill Walsh's playbooks use Split Back formations quite a bit. Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and many QBs from the Fifties on into the Seventies operated from Split Backs. Split Backs formation is rarely seen nowadays.

The only pro coach I can think of who used the Wing-T (Tubby Raymond) was Marv Levy which is interesting because he also used the Run & Shoot (Tiger Ellison). Some elements of the Wing-T rushing attack found their way into Chris Ault's Pistol offense and concepts from Run & Shoot can be found in Spread Formation passing attacks as well as in the Pistol.

The I Formation was seen in college football by the late Fifties. Tom Nugent at Maryland was one coach who used forms of it. Hank Stram may have been the first to use the I Formation in pro football starting in the Sixties. The I Formation has been used since then.

In the Eighties, Joe Gibbs used quite a bit of 12 personnel Single Back under center formations. He admits to borrowing concepts from Tom Osborne to develop his Counter Series rushing attack from a Single Back formation. Single Back formations are still an important of most NFL playbooks.

From the time Tom Landry revived the direct snap/shotgun formations, more teams started using it. Landry was familiar with Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread from the Thirties and Forties and he used quite a bit of that. Later on, concepts from Tiger Ellison's Run & Shoot were combined and the result is the 11 personnel spread gun formations we see so much today.

Bill Walsh's WCO had the QB under center and when Mike Shanahan joined the WCO to Alex Gibbs' Zone Series rushing attack, he kept the QB under center for Boot which is an integral part of his offense. WCO can be run from shotgun as well. WCO passing attack is known for stretching the field horizontally and its complexity. Don Coryell's offense was known for stretching the field vertically and its simplicity. The greatest WCO QB is probably Joe Montana while the greatest Air Coryell QB is Dan Fouts.

[Rastic]

Not quite sure what you are asking in that last part.

From the inception of the NFL in 1920, the Single Wing offense, both unbalanced and balanced line, dominated for almost thirty years. Sammy Baugh was a great Single Wing offense passer. Single Wing is the original "shotgun" having been invented by Glenn Warner in 1906.

George Halas wanted to install the T Formation (QB under center), but had to wait until college football was producing enough T Formation players. He worked closely with Clark Shaughnessy, Frank Leahy, Dana X. Bible and Don Faurot to develop T Formation football for the Bears. The T Formation was tight; then they split one of the Ends; finally, one of the Halfbacks was sent in motion. Sid Luckman was probably Halas' greatest T Formation QB in the Forties.

I think the last team to use the Single Wing was the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1952. Steve Owen used a variation of the Single Wing called the A Formation which was last used by the Giants in 1953, Owen's last year as their coach. One of Owen's assistants, Tom Landry, revived the direct snap formation of the Single Wing under the name "shotgun" when he was HC in Dallas. I can't remember exactly when he first used it, but I'm thinking it was in the Seventies.

After splitting one of the Ends and regularly sending one of the Halfbacks in motion, coaches realigned the Fullback and remaining Halfback so that they were split at approximately FB depth. The motion back became Z and could line up wide opposite the Split End, as a Wing next to the Y/Tight End, in the Slot or next to the X/Split End. This Split Backs formation began in the late Forties and was the dominant formation into the Eighties. Bill Walsh's playbooks use Split Back formations quite a bit. Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr and many QBs from the Fifties on into the Seventies operated from Split Backs. Split Backs formation is rarely seen nowadays.

The only pro coach I can think of who used the Wing-T (Tubby Raymond) was Marv Levy which is interesting because he also used the Run & Shoot (Tiger Ellison). Some elements of the Wing-T rushing attack found their way into Chris Ault's Pistol offense and concepts from Run & Shoot can be found in Spread Formation passing attacks as well as in the Pistol.

The I Formation was seen in college football by the late Fifties. Tom Nugent at Maryland was one coach who used forms of it. Hank Stram may have been the first to use the I Formation in pro football starting in the Sixties. The I Formation has been used since then.

In the Eighties, Joe Gibbs used quite a bit of 12 personnel Single Back under center formations. He admits to borrowing concepts from Tom Osborne to develop his Counter Series rushing attack from a Single Back formation. Single Back formations are still an important of most NFL playbooks.

From the time Tom Landry revived the direct snap/shotgun formations, more teams started using it. Landry was familiar with Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread from the Thirties and Forties and he used quite a bit of that. Later on, concepts from Tiger Ellison's Run & Shoot were combined and the result is the 11 personnel spread gun formations we see so much today.

Bill Walsh's WCO had the QB under center and when Mike Shanahan joined the WCO to Alex Gibbs' Zone Series rushing attack, he kept the QB under center for Boot which is an integral part of his offense. WCO can be run from shotgun as well. WCO passing attack is known for stretching the field horizontally and its complexity. Don Coryell's offense was known for stretching the field vertically and its simplicity. The greatest WCO QB is probably Joe Montana while the greatest Air Coryell QB is Dan Fouts.

Yeah, sorry for not being more clear. I was asking more about systems are most represented in QBs like Baugh, Unitas, Graham, Starr, Tarkentin, Bradshaw, etc., etc., down to the current crop of greats.

[hardwork]

No doubt his longevity at the position, leadership, and, issues aside, championships are both impressive and not easy to overlook. To say there is no discussion based on one game, as big as they come no doubt, but a game where it is also unarguable that the Falcons tanked, and say it ends discussion severely diminishes the body of work of so many QBs before Brady and mocks the position so many gifted athletes have played.

If one game makes or breaks it, why not talk about the '58 championship between the Colts and Giants. What about Baugh who played offense and defense and punted? He, without question, changed the QB position to what it is, making the forward pass a common play like it is today. Against Detroit in '43 he threw 4 TD passes and also had 4 INTs.

Considering how the rules have changed to favor a passing game in the mid-nighties, it's honestly hard to compare how Brady would fare a few decades ago or how Baugh, Unitas, et al, might fare today. Maybe I am wrong, but I would hazard a guess you are not that familiar with the body of work of many if not most of the QBs from earlier eras that made the position what it is today. If you were, you might not easily dismiss everybody but Brady. It's intellectually dishonest.

As if I based it one game. That one game, plus his body of work prior to that, takes him over the top.

I didn't easily dismiss everybody but Brady, obviously, considering I said his 1st place position was still questionable until the last SB.

A player can only play in the era he is in, so all this stuff about could this QB play in this, or that, era, is pointless. They do what they do, when they do it.

As for being familiar with past QBs? I'm 73. I've been following football since I was a kid, besides playing it for 10 years. I played the single wing, and T. I saw Unitas play dozens of times. etc.

[hardwork]

You are making the argument that I referred to, and I have no rebuttal.
Would you consider though, that the best QBs of all time are (titles in parentheses): In that rough order?
Graham (7 total, 3 NFL)
Starr (5)
Brady (5)
Montana (4)
Bradshaw (4)

These QBs won more than any other. And there is no wrong answer. Maybe this list ARE the top 5 all time?

That's one way to do it, and if that's the way, I have no argument with it.

[Lumiere]

As if I based it one game. That one game, plus his body of work prior to that, takes him over the top.

I didn't easily dismiss everybody but Brady, obviously, considering I said his 1st place position was still questionable until the last SB.

A player can only play in the era he is in, so all this stuff about could this QB play in this, or that, era, is pointless. They do what they do, when they do it.

As for being familiar with past QBs? I'm 73. I've been following football since I was a kid, besides playing it for 10 years. I played the single wing, and T. I saw Unitas play dozens of times. etc.

Ergo, the entire topic is subjective. There are qualifying and disqualifying arguments for every quarterback. Conversely, why should earlier quarterbacks be disqualified because they played in an era that was far more hostile to the passing game? Brady has rosy statistics for sure, and...uh...some blemishes (to put it nicely since we're not in smack). To just ignore earlier QB's due to the era that they played in is effectively using your own argument against you.

If I were drawing up a list like this, I would try to look at every conceivable facet: strength of offensive line, strength of all other supporting offensive cast, offensive schema, league averages in the era played for all statics utilized, average strength of opponent/schedule year over year, clutch metrics, etc. In the end, it's still subjective...so there will always be a counter argument, regardless.

[hardwork]

Ergo, the entire topic is subjective. There are qualifying and disqualifying arguments for every quarterback. Conversely, why should earlier quarterbacks be disqualified because they played in an era that was far more hostile to the passing game? Brady has rosy statistics for sure, and...uh...some blemishes (to put it nicely since we're not in smack). To just ignore earlier QB's due to the era that they played in is effectively using your own argument against you.

If I were drawing up a list like this, I would try to look at every conceivable facet: strength of offensive line, strength of all other supporting offensive cast, offensive schema, league averages in the era played for all statics utilized, average strength of opponent/schedule year over year, clutch metrics, etc. In the end, it's still subjective...so there will always be a counter argument, regardless.

Who's ignoring earlier QBs?

Pretty hard to claim that picking Brady is subjective unless, of course, for some reason you can't be objective. Since we're not in smack I'll leave it at that. Further, while this is a different topic, it would be pretty hard not to pick Brady as the No. 1 NFL player of all time at this point.

That list might go something like:

Brady
Taylor
Brown
Rice
Graham

=================================


Is Tom Brady the greatest NFL player of all time -- regardless of position?


NFL.com

While many considered Tom Brady the greatest quarterback of all time before Super Bowl LI, his epic comeback this past Sunday appeared to win over most of the remaining skeptics. So, yes, there's now a widespread feeling that Brady -- with his QB-record five Super Bowl rings -- is indeed the GOAT at the game's most important position.

Now that that's (largely) settled, a different question arises: Is Tom Brady the greatest football player of all time, regardless of position?


Charley Casserly
Writer | NFL.com
+ Follow On Twitter
Tom Brady has separated from a pack that includes icons like Joe Montana and Bart Starr
I have to say Tom Brady is the best. There are always tricky questions with this exercise ... If you put another top QB with Bill Belichick in New England, would the Pats have won these Super Bowls? If you put Tom Brady on a bad team, could he have lifted it to five Lombardi Trophies? Probably not. So all I can do is compare him to other QBs who have won three-plus titles. (Yes, I'm only considering quarterbacks for this question -- it's clearly the most important position on the field.)

The QBs I chose were Otto Graham, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Joe Montana. All of them played with three to four Hall of Famers flanking them on offense. Meanwhile, Brady played with one, Randy Moss, and only for a short period of time. (Yes, Rob Gronkowski could make his way to Canton, as well, but we'll have to wait and see a bit more on that one.) Brady also won his latest title at a much later age (39) than those other guys. Bradshaw was 31, Starr and Montana were 33 and Graham was 34. Lastly, Brady just came off a spectacular season. This was not just a three-game run. He finished second in the MVP race. And in Super Bowl LI, Brady clearly put the team on his back to erase a 25-point deficit and snag his fifth ring.

Bucky Brooks
Writer | NFL.com
+ Follow On Twitter
Jerry Rice is far and away the greatest overall player in league history
Jerry Rice is the greatest player of all time. Look at his numbers and the impact he had on his teams. He completely revolutionized the wide receiver position, while setting mind-bending records -- that still comfortably stand -- in touchdowns scored (208), receptions (1,549) and receiving yards (22,895). To do that and sustain a level of dominance for as long as Rice did, I think it's hard for anyone to argue they've seen a better overall player.

With respect to Tom Brady and some of the others who've stamped their name on the sport in an iconic way, I just don't think you can say they are at the standard in their respective positions that Jerry Rice is at receiver.

Adam Schein
Writer | NFL.com
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With apologies to Rice ... Yes, Brady just proved why he's the best ever
Even before Tom Brady won his fifth Super Bowl, he was the greatest quarterback of all time. That said, the greatest QB of all time just had his greatest performance of all time. So, yes, it's time to think bigger ...

While earning his record-setting fourth Super Bowl MVP, Brady passed for a Super Bowl-record 466 yards. But obviously, the story is the epic comeback Brady authored. Atlanta took a 28-3 lead with 8:31 remaining in the third quarter. Here is what Brady did from that point on:

26 of 33 for 284 yards and two touchdowns (against zero picks) -- good for a 122.7 quarterback rating. Oh, and for good measure, he converted a key third-and-8 with a 15-yard scramble.

Yep, that's how you spark the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history. Never hate. Always appreciate watching the best to ever do it -- and I'm not just talking about quarterbacking here. Yep, Tom Brady is the best football player to ever play the game. Nobody has enjoyed a more decorated career. Sorry, Jerry Rice.

Gil Brandt
Writer | NFL.com
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It's tempting to go with the five-time champ, but Jim Brown, Reggie White and others can't be dismissed
Tom Brady has a good argument, given that he's the greatest to have played the game's most important position, and I don't think we'll ever see another quarterback win five Super Bowls. However, we've had so many outstanding players in this league over the years -- from Don Hutson, who played both ways, to Jim Brown, Reggie White and others -- that it's not possible for me to say Brady is the best ever. People don't realize what Brown did, gaining all that ground in an era when teams weren't spreading it out or motioning and when the rules were different.

David Carr
Writer | NFL.com
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Brady's weaknesses don't hinder him from doing the one thing that matters: winning
Sure, there are more athletic players -- Brady's not the most physical guy on the field. But when it comes to leadership, mental toughness and the ability to win, I don't know where else you're going to look. So, yes, Brady is the best player in NFL history.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000784795/article/is-tom-brady-the-greatest-nfl-player-of-all-time-regardless-of-position

[samparnell]

Charley Casserly
Writer | NFL.com
+ Follow On Twitter
Tom Brady has separated from a pack that includes icons like Joe Montana and Bart Starr
I have to say Tom Brady is the best. There are always tricky questions with this exercise ... If you put another top QB with Bill Belichick in New England, would the Pats have won these Super Bowls? If you put Tom Brady on a bad team, could he have lifted it to five Lombardi Trophies? Probably not. So all I can do is compare him to other QBs who have won three-plus titles. (Yes, I'm only considering quarterbacks for this question -- it's clearly the most important position on the field.)

The QBs I chose were Otto Graham, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Joe Montana. All of them played with three to four Hall of Famers flanking them on offense. Meanwhile, Brady played with one, Randy Moss, and only for a short period of time. (Yes, Rob Gronkowski could make his way to Canton, as well, but we'll have to wait and see a bit more on that one.) Brady also won his latest title at a much later age (39) than those other guys. Bradshaw was 31, Starr and Montana were 33 and Graham was 34. Lastly, Brady just came off a spectacular season. This was not just a three-game run. He finished second in the MVP race. And in Super Bowl LI, Brady clearly put the team on his back to erase a 25-point deficit and snag his fifth ring.http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...ss-of-position

Can you name the five Hall of Famers who played with Otto Graham on offense? Hint: three of them were linemen and two handled the ball.

[beastlyskronk]

Can you name the five Hall of Famers who played with Otto Graham on offense? Hint: three of them were linemen and two handled the ball.

Off the top of my head, Lou Groza, Marion Motley, and Dante Lavelli are the only ones I can name. I only know Lavelli because Mac Speedie never got in and I missed this question in a sports trivia game

[samparnell]

Off the top of my head, Lou Groza, Marion Motley, and Dante Lavelli are the only ones I can name. I only know Lavelli because Mac Speedie never got in and I missed this question in a sports trivia game

That's right, Lou Groza was T/PK, Marion Motley was FB and Dante Lavelli was an End. Also, Frank Gatski was the C and Mike McCormack played Tackle the last two years Otto Graham was with the Browns, 1954-55. Mac Speedie coached the Broncos in '64 & '65. Nice work.

[hardwork]

Off the top of my head, Lou Groza, Marion Motley, and Dante Lavelli are the only ones I can name. I only know Lavelli because Mac Speedie never got in and I missed this question in a sports trivia game

"Dante Bert Joseph "Gluefingers" Lavelli was an American football end......."


I like the fact they have him listed as an "end". Yes we have tight ends today, but nobody calls anyone an end anymore. I played right end in a single wing formation for 9 years, and one year in a T. I loved the single wing. To be exact, the unbalanced single wing*. Here in the North East the coaching tree came from Princeton. Every coach I had was somehow connected to Princeton, and its version of the formation, and the plays they used. Including the Princeton Pass, which was to the the 2 back over the middle, with the right end going deeper over the middle, as a second option. For me football will always be that formation.

1950 undefeated Princeton team in the unbalanced single wing formation.




* The Unbalanced Single-Wing of Fritz Crisler at Michigan, Bernie Bierman at Minnesota, Charley Caldwell at Princeton and George Munger at Penn. Its best-known present-day practitioner is Dr. Ken Keuffel, at New Jersey's Lawrenceville School

http://www.coachwyatt.com/singlewing.html

[samparnell]

"Dante Bert Joseph "Gluefingers" Lavelli was an American football end......."


I like the fact they have him listed as an "end". Yes we have tight ends today, but nobody calls anyone an end anymore. I played right end in a single wing formation for 9 years, and one year in a T. I loved the single wing. To be exact, the unbalanced single wing*. Here in the North East the coaching tree came from Princeton. Every coach I had was somehow connected to Princeton, and its version of the formation, and the plays they used. Including the Princeton Pass, which was to the the 2 back over the middle, with the right end going deeper over the middle, as a second option. For me football will always be that formation.

1950 undefeated Princeton team in the unbalanced single wing formation.




* The Unbalanced Single-Wing of Fritz Crisler at Michigan, Bernie Bierman at Minnesota, Charley Caldwell at Princeton and George Munger at Penn. Its best-known present-day practitioner is Dr. Ken Keuffel, at New Jersey's Lawrenceville School

http://www.coachwyatt.com/singlewing.html

Ken Keuffel passed away in 2006; requiescat in pace. His book, Winning Single Wing Football, is a great source especially for HS coaches since he outlines the half-spin.

Warner's SIngle Wing was unbalanced line; Rockne's was balanced, the Notre Dame Box. NY Giants coach Steve Owen ran a variation of the Single Wing with the Backs to the short side of the unbalanced line with irregular line splits. He called it the A Formation. The original spread gun was Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread.

Vince Lombardi was one of the Seven Blocks of Granite O-Line in Fordham's Single Wing teams in the Thirties. In his books he paid homage to the teams of Jock Sutherland at Pitt, and said that was the inspiration for his Sweep Series. He was once asked what he thought would happen if the Single Wing returned to pro football. Lombardi said, "It would embarrass the hell out of us."

[hardwork]

Ken Keuffel passed away in 2006; requiescat in pace. His book, Winning Single Wing Football, is a great source especially for HS coaches since he outlines the half-spin.

Warner's SIngle Wing was unbalanced line; Rockne's was balanced, the Notre Dame Box. NY Giants coach Steve Owen ran a variation of the Single Wing with the Backs to the short side of the unbalanced line with irregular line splits. He called it the A Formation. The original spread gun was Dutch Meyer's Southwestern Spread.

Vince Lombardi was one of the Seven Blocks of Granite O-Line in Fordham's Single Wing teams in the Thirties. In his books he paid homage to the teams of Jock Sutherland at Pitt, and said that was the inspiration for his Sweep Series. He was once asked what he thought would happen if the Single Wing returned to pro football. Lombardi said, "It would embarrass the hell out of us."

Talking about the GOAT, and then the single wing, I just wondered where would a QB like Brady play in the single wing? The 4 back was the multitalented back, and in many ways the single wing was invented to take advantage of that type of athlete. The traditional 4 back could, or should be able to, run, pass, and punt. Jim Thorpe was a 4 back. We had a 4 back my last year in high school who was the prototypical athlete for that position. He was 6'2" 205, could run, pass, and punt with the best of them. His father had been an olympic decathlon participant, and he got a ton of those genes. But where would Brady fit in? He's clearly not a tailback. So the T open up a position where a different kind of athlete could participate. Namely, the pocket passer. Does that add to the game, I guess it does. But as a traditionalist I miss the 4 back type athlete, over the specialists.

[TheArtofManning]

Here is an interesting way to look at QBs:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

I went through each season and here is a list of the "best QB each year", based on DYAR, which is one of their two big criteria, the other being DVOA.
The number in parentheses is how many times a QB appears on the list, if it's more than once.
MY biggest takeaways are: Peyton is #1..........
But seriously, Aaron Rodgers has yet to make the list.

1987 - Kosar
1988 - Marino (2)
1989 - Montana
1990 - Moon
1991 - Rypien
1992 - Young (2)
1993 - Elway
1994 - Young
1995 - Kramer
1996 - Testaverde
1997 - Marino
1998 - Cunningham
1999 - Warner (2)
2000 - P.Manning (6)
2001 - Warner
2002 - Gannon
2003 - P.Manning
2004 - P.Manning
2005 - P.Manning
2006 - P.Manning
2007 - Brady (4)
2008 - Brees (2)
2009 - Brady
2010 - Brady
2011 - Brees
2012 - Brady
2013 - P.Manning
2014 - Roethlisberger
2015 - Palmer
2016 - Ryan

[samparnell]

Talking about the GOAT, and then the single wing, I just wondered where would a QB like Brady play in the single wing? The 4 back was the multitalented back, and in many ways the single wing was invented to take advantage of that type of athlete. The traditional 4 back could, or should be able to, run, pass, and punt. Jim Thorpe was a 4 back. We had a 4 back my last year in high school who was the prototypical athlete for that position. He was 6'2" 205, could run, pass, and punt with the best of them. His father had been an olympic decathlon participant, and he got a ton of those genes. But where would Brady fit in? He's clearly not a tailback. So the T open up a position where a different kind of athlete could participate. Namely, the pocket passer. Does that add to the game, I guess it does. But as a traditionalist I miss the 4 back type athlete, over the specialists.

1 Back/Wingback; 2 Back/Quarterback; 3 Back/Halfback; 4 Back/Fullback

In Warner's alignment, the snap could go to 3 or 4 Back. From what I can tell, all the Backs at Carlisle Indian School were rushing/receiving/passing/dropkicking/punting threats. The ball hadn't changed yet and was still similar to a rugby ball, and was easier to dropkick. Doug Flutie could dropkick a current football.

Warner used Single Wing, Double Wing and Punt formations. He had run and pass plays from each.

Jim Thorpe was arguably the greatest athlete ever since he excelled at the highest levels of football, baseball and basketball as well as winning Olympic Gold Medals in both Pentathlon and Decathlon at the 1912 Olympic Games in Stockholm. Thorpe was the best player Carlisle had when Warner coached them, but they had a great team with other great players, too, as they went 74-24-5 during Warner's second stint (1907-14) after the rules changes. During the 1911-1913 seasons, Carlisle went 33-3-2 including a 1912 victory over Army by the real All-Americans.

I thought Tim Tebow would have been more at home as a Single Wing Fullback, and Urban Meyer's Spread Option has some similarities to the Single Wing. In 2011, Denver ran some stuff that was pretty close to Single Wing including some tandem tackle over unbalanced line.

GOAT QBs in the Single Wing? Well, Sammy Baugh played in the Single Wing and was as good a Punter as he was a Passer. Sid Luckman was a Single Wing Back at Columbia; not sure if he was 3 or 4 Back. He made the transition to the T-Formation as a pro. I'm not sure about Otto Graham, Bobby Layne, Norm van Brocklin, Bart Starr and Johnny Unitas, but they seem to be the pocket passer guys who probably wouldn't do well in the Single Wing. Billy Kilmer was a Heisman Trophy candidate playing in the Single Wing at UCLA in 1960.

Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, John Elway and Cam Newton could probably have done well in the Single Wing. At Auburn, Cam Newton played in Gus Malzahn's offense which often lines up in Single Wing formation complete with Blocking Back and which runs plays which are a combination of Single Wing and Wing-T.

If Thorpe played football today, what offensive position would he be? Probably a RB, but that would be a waste of his talents. The Single Wing is truly different and exists in some high school programs and a few lower level college ones. The same can be said of the T-Formation, Stack I, Split Backs Veer and Wing-T. Even the I Formation isn't seen that often anymore. Spread/Gun, Spread Option dominate college and HS football anymore. Army, Navy, Air Force, Georgia Tech and UNM are a small minority of college programs that are committed to running the ball.