CU football scandel (merged with "Gary Barnett" thread)

[bklynbronco]

your not serious are you

I think its bull about the recruiting parties cause CU was only voted like 9th most partiest university so what about the other 8 who have more wild parties for recruits?



being 9th might have been the reason why they hired the hookers ,lava. your talking 9th out how many colleges in the country? i think that's a good finish thinking that it beat out over 100 other partying colleges.
__________________

[bronco30]

Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by bklynbronco
I think its bull about the recruiting parties cause CU was only voted like 9th most partiest university so what about the other 8 who have more wild parties for recruits?



being 9th might have been the reason why they hired the hookers ,lava. your talking 9th out how many colleges in the country? i think that's a good finish thinking that it beat out over 100 other partying colleges.
__________________

being ranked 9th or 1st its basically all the same these recruiting parties go on in the 25th ranked school n have 4 many many years it may slow down now 4 a lil bit but they'll never stop...hell i saw recruits show up meet the president, chancellor the AD n the coach w/ their parents there n then that night some player or host will take um out 2 these parties it goes on all over...

n the coach may never know but that dont matter everything comes back to him hes responsible 4 "his" program hell the president or chancellor is not gunna b blamed they're goin to go after the coach or coaches 1st.....its prolly not right but its how it works....

[bklynbronco]

Re: Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by bronco30
being ranked 9th or 1st its basically all the same these recruiting parties go on in the 25th ranked school n have 4 many many years it may slow down now 4 a lil bit but they'll never stop...hell i saw recruits show up meet the president, chancellor the AD n the coach w/ their parents there n then that night some player or host will take um out 2 these parties it goes on all over...

n the coach may never know but that dont matter everything comes back to him hes responsible 4 "his" program hell the president or chancellor is not gunna b blamed they're goin to go after the coach or coaches 1st.....its prolly not right but its how it works....

your right B30, that doesn't excuse the AD or the college president but the visible face that represent CU authority is the head coach, so he takes much of the blame cause he's with the kids and assistant coaches more.

[broncos4ever]

Originally posted by Return of Lava
Why are we blaming the coach so suddenly? He didnt do the rape or he didnt hire the strippers at the party (well maybe but its not proven yet). I think the responsibility should be first placed on the students themselves, and that barnett or the authorities should take action on the students. If Katie would have told the coach, maybe he would have done something, instead she holds it in all this time and finally comes out with it, how is the coach supposed to know what happened to her 5 years ago when she didnt report it WHEN IT HAPPENED? I think people are jumping ont he coach to quickly, he may be the head coach who is responsible for his players, but the students are even MORE responsible for themselves dont you think?

True college students should be responsible for their own actions.

From what I have read Gary Barnett has tried to instill in his players to do the right thing. I do not fault him for that and I don't think that is the main issue at hand here.

Here are some thoughts...

What if you are a young lady and you had too much to drink but you did not want to have sex and you were raped, you went to the coach and told him about it and he discouraged you from reporting it or questioned you about it until you thought that nothing would happen if you did report it? Would that be the kind of atmosphere that you would want your daughter or sister to go to?

What if the coaching and athletic staff always tried to cover-up or make things hard on the people that reported things as in sexual conduct, or looked the other way in the case of Katies father going to Gary Barnett, would that be the atmosphere that you would want your daughter or sister to go to?

I think the reason why Gary Barnett is being the "fall guy" and maybe deserved, is because when he heard about incidents he either turned a "deaf ear" to them, backed up his football players blindly, or did not handle the investigation properly of those accused.

College coaches get fired all the time and do you think he now could be affective in Colorado as a football coach? Do you think he would have the respect of other professors in the college after these incidents? Would have be effective in recruiting high school players?

I don't think so.

The coach must take some of the blame, because he is responsible for the discipline of his players after they have been accused or been found guilty.

Gary Barnett did not do that.

[Jared]

Originally posted by FutureMrsPortis
They needed to do a bit more research...
The president's name is Elizabeth aka "Betsy" Hoffman, not Becky...And if they're going to use Barnett as a scape goat, then she needs to go too. All she's done is try to screw up things that the student body has formed into tradition over the years.

Not being from Colorado, I could give a damn what happens to the football program at CU. I am saddened that this sort of thing happens, but I have no sympathy or hatred toward that school.


But I do have to say, that just because something is a 'student body" tradition, doesn't mean its approrpiate. Without knowing exactly what you are talking about, I can't say who is the party with their heart in the right place. Traditions aren't always the right thing to do. But some school presidents do get over zealous and go on a power trip.

But mostly, whatever the truth is, it is clear that Barnett either truly has no control over his players, or he turns a blind eye and doesn't want to see potential problems. Going on Larry King Live sure seems like he is worried more about public opinion than he is about figuring out who is responsible and holding them (and himself if necessary) responsible.

So no matter what happens, regardless of how anyone feels about what he said, he needs to go. Not because he is an insensitive lout (which is boorish, but not criminal or an NCAA violation), but because the university will always have to deal with this as long as he is an employee of the school. And that is a disservice not only to the young men and women who compete in athletics at the school, but also to the other 90% of students there who just want to get an education. The school can't focus on what it needs to if it is spending money and time on this issue.

[Return of Lava]

Re: are you kidding me?

ok brook let me ask, if you were a coach, and you had a girl on your team cause she tried out and you didnt want to cut her nd look sexist, so you let her play. she was bad but it didnt matter. so while she is on te team she gets raped, she never tells you, how do you know? you dont. 5 years later you are on the hot seat cause your players are doing illegal stuff(like pretty much ALL college athletes do) drinking and such and ladies are there stripping cause theyt are drunk too, you are not even there you dont hang with your students like that, you're the coach. so then you get on the news for throwing illegal recruiting parties, you didnt even know they had that recruiting party. then that girl you coached 5 years ago comes out and says, "i was raped". remember, she never told you, so you never knew. she also comes out and says the team didnt respect her as a player and always treated her sexist just cause she was a girl, which is not the case. they treated her like a kicker who wasnt good and you told the media that. then you realize how the media twists words and the next day the paper comes out and says

Originally posted by bklynbronco
tell the coach? look how he reacted right now. this is not the first time he made the same sort of comments about katie. he didn't want her on the team from the start and he already admits then he was just trying to be nice by keeping her around. do you think he would done much if she would have just come up and said a fellow team mate just raped me? he brings up her ability to play during a rape charge does that mean that if you suck at your job you deserve to get abused? their are seven alleged rape charges against his team and that's including katie's charge. do you thing it's just coincidental? hiring hookers to recruit high school players and now these rape charges and him or his staff didn't know anything? cmon who are you fooling. you don't think that sort of stuff doesn't get back to the coach? one incident or two incident maybe but all those accounts and he had no clue? when your a coach of a college athletic team your also a teacher what were these kids learning from his actions or non actions? if he didn't know these things weren't going on then he should be known as Mr. Magoo cause this is too much stuff for him not to know. if he did know but failed to react then he's just as accountable for the problems going on there.

Brook the point is, maybe the coach DIDN'T know his players were doing this behind his back, also, i'm sure EVERY college has those kinds of parties but they dont get caught. Players should be responsible for themselves, they shouldnt be let off the hook just cause they are in college athletics and have a coach to take the rap for them.

[Return of Lava]

Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by bklynbronco
I think its bull about the recruiting parties cause CU was only voted like 9th most partiest university so what about the other 8 who have more wild parties for recruits?



being 9th might have been the reason why they hired the hookers ,lava. your talking 9th out how many colleges in the country? i think that's a good finish thinking that it beat out over 100 other partying colleges.
__________________

no, im saying there are 8 oter schools that party MORE than CU, whyarent they on the news also, its just CU and it goes to show that other schools do the exact same but they just dont get caught so people should stop acting like CU is the only school that has strippers, every drunken woman is liable to strip at ANY party at ANY school.

[Jared]

Re: Re: are you kidding me?

Originally posted by Return of Lava
ok brook let me ask, if you were a coach, and you had a girl on your team cause she tried out and you didnt want to cut her nd look sexist, so you let her play. she was bad but it didnt matter. so while she is on te team she gets raped, she never tells you, how do you know? you dont. 5 years later you are on the hot seat cause your players are doing illegal stuff(like pretty much ALL college athletes do) drinking and such and ladies are there stripping cause theyt are drunk too, you are not even there you dont hang with your students like that, you're the coach. so then you get on the news for throwing illegal recruiting parties, you didnt even know they had that recruiting party. then that girl you coached 5 years ago comes out and says, "i was raped". remember, she never told you, so you never knew. she also comes out and says the team didnt respect her as a player and always treated her sexist just cause she was a girl, which is not the case. they treated her like a kicker who wasnt good and you told the media that. then you realize how the media twists words and the next day the paper comes out and says
Brook the point is, maybe the coach DIDN'T know his players were doing this behind his back, also, i'm sure EVERY college has those kinds of parties but they dont get caught. Players should be responsible for themselves, they shouldnt be let off the hook just cause they are in college athletics and have a coach to take the rap for them.

Lava,

I think you are missing the thrust of the charges brought against the school in terms of the NCAA. You are right that Barnett probably didn't know that certain players were bringing girls to have sex with recruits. That is the whole point. It's called "lack of institutional control". Regardless of whether Katie Hndia (spelling?) was the best or worse kicker on the team, that has NOTHING to do with the other charges, or her accusation of rape. (I am not going to get into a whole discussion about PTSD and why so many women refuse to press charges, its another debate entirely). Her quality of play at her position was not a causal effect for her alleged assault. Perhaps she was not aware that kickers in general are harrassed more that say, I dunno, other special teamers. But the alleged exposing of genitals and throwing footballs full speed at her are beyond anything that I have ever heard of or seen at college athletics.

When I played basketball my one year of college, I did my fair share of freshman grunt duty, but I can guarantee you that if some clown had chucked a ball at my head intentionally, with velocity, not only would I have filed an official compliant with the coach and AD, you can be damn sure that if he injured me, I would have gone to the police. That's not hazing, that's assault. There is a difference. I am sure the young lady in question was afraid to do so because she was afraid her position on the team would be compromised, and she probably worked so hard just to get a tryout. The whole gender thing really thows a wrench into this.

But I repeat, Barnett's insensitive comments are not why he should be let go. His lack of knowledge of his player's actions is why he should be let go. And his feelings for her ability as a player should have had no business entering an answer to a question about whether or not she was raped. They are seperate and distinct issues.

I don't buy this "she was terrible" crap. He was the one who didn't cut her. So by saying she was terrible, he is either acknowledging that she was one of the best tow or three that tried out (which means they must have needed seriosu help in that department), or he let her on the team as a publicity stunt. Either way, I think he is full of it. If she sucked that bad, cut her. No one would have accused him of sexism. If she was the least accurate kicker that tried out, then she should have been cut. Plain and simple. Now the young gentlemen who were cut in favor if her can argue that they were cut due to their gender (he wanted a woman for publicity, regardeless of her skills) , not their abilities. See what kind of can of worms Barnett has opened?

[Jared]

Re: Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by Return of Lava
no, im saying there are 8 oter schools that party MORE than CU, whyarent they on the news also, its just CU and it goes to show that other schools do the exact same but they just dont get caught so people should stop acting like CU is the only school that has strippers, every drunken woman is liable to strip at ANY party at ANY school.

Well, its possible that some or none of those schools have football programs or if they do, use the strippers as a recruiting tool.

I am sure some of them do, but lets see this "party school" list first. If I see MIT or some other non-football/sports school on there, your argument is shot.


It doesn't matter what everyone else does, only you are responsible for your actions. You are not suddenly not responsible just because everyone else is doing it. Try that excuse the next time you get a speeding ticket and see how far THAT gets you in court.


Also, just because you don't get caught, doesn't mean you should be doing it in the first place. And when you get caught, take some responsibility.

[bronco30]

i keep readin some of the posts here sayin parties were illegal (in a sense yes) or it happens all over (which it does).... i say illegal in a sense bcuzz in the recruits papers it says no excessive entertainment what does that mean 1 night out to the movies or 2 parties the NCAA head di**s are a joke....

as the case in CO guys would call places such as hardbodies entertainment n girls would show up to parties mostly off campus n the university "would not know" this goes on everywhere the NCAA i predict soon will issue a statement soon or make "changes" in recruits trips to try n cover there a**es....

its as common as boosters n alumni givin players money n nobody says anything...but its illegal 4 a player 2 go speak at a school get a dinner paid for and a car ride back to school unbeleivable.....im sure some of u guys have been on/off campuses n seen "star" players drivin brand new vehicles or livin in a big apt./house etc etc....its not bcuzz there workin or have rich parents n u know 1/2 of um dont go 2 class either...i no this 1st hand its crazy

[Jared]

Originally posted by bronco30
i keep readin some of the posts here sayin parties were illegal (in a sense yes) or it happens all over (which it does).... i say illegal in a sense bcuzz in the recruits papers it says no excessive entertainment what does that mean 1 night out to the movies or 2 parties the NCAA head di**s are a joke....

as the case in CO guys would call places such as hardbodies entertainment n girls would show up to parties mostly off campus n the university "would not know" this goes on everywhere the NCAA i predict soon will issue a statement soon or make "changes" in recruits trips to try n cover there a**es....

its as common as boosters n alumni givin players money n nobody says anything...but its illegal 4 a player 2 go speak at a school get a dinner paid for and a car ride back to school unbeleivable.....im sure some of u guys have been on/off campuses n seen "star" players drivin brand new vehicles or livin in a big apt./house etc etc....its not bcuzz there workin or have rich parents n u know 1/2 of um dont go 2 class either...i no this 1st hand its crazy

While all of what you say is true, its not the point.

Yes, the rules are crazy and archaic.

Yes, lots of other schools do this.

But once you get caught with your hands in the cookie jar, don't say that it was cookies fault. Take responsibility.

And don't confuse a students talent (or lack thereof) with an accusation of rape.

And get rid of players who break rules and encourgae others to do so.

Adn work with the NCAA to figure out a way to change the rules so that the abuse isn't a lucrative alternative. That way the crappy rules are no longer an issue. See my other post (in this thread I think), about players being allowed to work or have jobs or do SOMETHING for an income, so that money isn't so tight that they have to worry about whether or not they can go out to dinner with someone (are they a booster? An alumni? Is this against the rules?). And then people wonder why the athletes feel separate from the rest of the student body. They have to isolate themselves because of the dumb rules.

[bklynbronco]

Re: Re: are you kidding me?

Originally posted by Return of Lava
ok brook let me ask, if you were a coach, and you had a girl on your team cause she tried out and you didnt want to cut her nd look sexist, so you let her play. she was bad but it didnt matter. so while she is on te team she gets raped, she never tells you, how do you know? you dont. 5 years later you are on the hot seat cause your players are doing illegal stuff(like pretty much ALL college athletes do) drinking and such and ladies are there stripping cause theyt are drunk too, you are not even there you dont hang with your students like that, you're the coach. so then you get on the news for throwing illegal recruiting parties, you didnt even know they had that recruiting party. then that girl you coached 5 years ago comes out and says, "i was raped". remember, she never told you, so you never knew. she also comes out and says the team didnt respect her as a player and always treated her sexist just cause she was a girl, which is not the case. they treated her like a kicker who wasnt good and you told the media that. then you realize how the media twists words and the next day the paper comes out and says
Brook the point is, maybe the coach DIDN'T know his players were doing this behind his back, also, i'm sure EVERY college has those kinds of parties but they dont get caught. Players should be responsible for themselves, they shouldnt be let off the hook just cause they are in college athletics and have a coach to take the rap for them.

first off lava each coach is different. equal try outs for everybody man or woman. i wouldn't discriminate against anybody but they would have to be treated the same as anybody else. if she was a walk on that's almost another strike against you yet katie from what i get didn't miss a extra point(27) or none of her FG attempts (3)in her senior year at her high school so she had some skills. i think that's why she was let in to even try out. at the same time if she didn't make the requirements she would get cut like anybody else. i as a coach at the same time would encourage her to try out next year and i would give her the same oppurtunity. second thier would be no way that a player can't come up to the coach and discuss any personal problem with another player,student or even professor that any player has. you have to have a open door policy and the great coaches are the ones that takes time out to hear and deal with all thier players problems. Rape is a serious accusation and i as the coach(main authority figure on the team)can't close my eyes to that. now if she changes colleges and four years later she comes out and accuses a player on my team of raping her and i didn't know about cause she never brought it up, i would investigate the accusations. i wouldn't try to discredit her in the media by saying she sucked as a kicker and she's a girl and male players only respect other players whether they are old or young, male or female only if they played good. that statement has nothing to do with her being raped. IF you wanna say she slept around or was a whore like most defense attorneys do in rape cases in court yeah i can see that happening but discrediting her ability as kicker on national TV like if she deserve to get raped because she was a bad kicker? you see what i am getting at,lava? her ability and the rape accusation do not match. if the alleged rape happened the person should be punished but if thier were instances the she tried telling him or an assistant coach and played deaf,dumb and blind he should be fired.because a woman gets drunk at a party doesn't mean she deserves to get raped.most coaches know somewhat what's going on like hazing practices and special blanket parties. they know but think of it as tradition in some cases. he's not that ignorant.

[Return of Lava]

Re: Re: Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by Jared
Well, its possible that some or none of those schools have football programs or if they do, use the strippers as a recruiting tool.

I am sure some of them do, but lets see this "party school" list first. If I see MIT or some other non-football/sports school on there, your argument is shot.


It doesn't matter what everyone else does, only you are responsible for your actions. You are not suddenly not responsible just because everyone else is doing it. Try that excuse the next time you get a speeding ticket and see how far THAT gets you in court.


Also, just because you don't get caught, doesn't mean you should be doing it in the first place. And when you get caught, take some responsibility.

Jared, it was a long time ago i seen this list, im talkin years so i dont have the website cause i saw it on TV so long ago, so you just have to believe me on that. Tennessee and texas were above colorado, but thats besides the point. forget about the list cause you probably dont believe it anyway, the point is, you said what i was saying, let me remind you:

"It doesn't matter what everyone else does, only you are responsible for your actions. You are not suddenly not responsible just because everyone else is doing it. "

Isnt that what i was saying with the football players? whats the coach go to do with the players/college students private and socilal life? A coach cant have "institutional control" at the big college campuses, he is not reponsible for thier private lives, only football related stuff. I dont think the coach was wrong for not knowing, he was minding his business like he should. The PLAYERS are at fault for raping/abusing the woman, not the coach, its not the coaches responsibility to follow the players everywhere to make sure they dont rape anybody, those kids are in COLLEGE, they have no parents and are allowed do what they want, they should take the consequences for their own actions.

[Return of Lava]

Re: Re: Re: are you kidding me?

Originally posted by bklynbronco
first off lava each coach is different. equal try outs for everybody man or woman. i wouldn't discriminate against anybody but they would have to be treated the same as anybody else. if she was a walk on that's almost another strike against you yet katie from what i get didn't miss a extra point(27) or none of her FG attempts (3)in her senior year at her high school so she had some skills. i think that's why she was let in to even try out. at the same time if she didn't make the requirements she would get cut like anybody else. i as a coach at the same time would encourage her to try out next year and i would give her the same oppurtunity. second thier would be no way that a player can't come up to the coach and discuss any personal problem with another player,student or even professor that any player has. you have to have a open door policy and the great coaches are the ones that takes time out to hear and deal with all thier players problems. Rape is a serious accusation and i as the coach(main authority figure on the team)can't close my eyes to that. now if she changes colleges and four years later she comes out and accuses a player on my team of raping her and i didn't know about cause she never brought it up, i would investigate the accusations. i wouldn't try to discredit her in the media by saying she sucked as a kicker and she's a girl and male players only respect other players whether they are old or young, male or female only if they played good. that statement has nothing to do with her being raped. IF you wanna say she slept around or was a whore like most defense attorneys do in rape cases in court yeah i can see that happening but discrediting her ability as kicker on national TV like if she deserve to get raped because she was a bad kicker? you see what i am getting at,lava? her ability and the rape accusation do not match. if the alleged rape happened the person should be punished but if thier were instances the she tried telling him or an assistant coach and played deaf,dumb and blind he should be fired.because a woman gets drunk at a party doesn't mean she deserves to get raped.most coaches know somewhat what's going on like hazing practices and special blanket parties. they know but think of it as tradition in some cases. he's not that ignorant.

I understand that if barnett KNEW about the rape and didnt do nothin, he should definitely be fored, i havent seen anything to lead me to think he knew and didnt care though. IF that girl waited all this time to come out, i dont think she would have told the coach, cause you dont tell a coach somehting then wait 5 years before you bring it back up. Until proven otherwise, Katie didnt tell the coach, so the caoch cant know, im almost positive he had an open door policy cause all coaches have to communicate, and Katie just didnt report it(from what i know now) Now, about the statements Barnett made about Katie's skills, what i was trying to get you to see is that WE dont know the whole conversation. I'm sure Barnett isnt that dumb that he would say "Katie was raped cause she was a bad kicker" it had to be something specific the reporter asked him to get him to say that. Remember portis saying the media "suckered" him into saying something? I give Barnett the benefit of the doubt that he didnt mean to make and excuse for Katie being raped. i still think that the coach had no knowlegde and he shouldnt if the girl never tells him how is he supposed to know? Even if he knew the football players were having a party, why would he attend? He is a dang coach, a coach doesnt party with his players. It is unfortunate that the party turned into the party she was raped at, but i can easily understand that Barnett had no knowledge of the rape until 5 years later when she finally told. If we find out later that he did know but did nothing to stop it, then yeah i say get rid of his a$$, but i havent heard that yet.

[Jared]

Re: Re: Re: Re: your not serious are you

Originally posted by Return of Lava


Isnt that what i was saying with the football players? whats the coach go to do with the players/college students private and socilal life? A coach cant have "institutional control" at the big college campuses, he is not reponsible for thier private lives, only football related stuff. I dont think the coach was wrong for not knowing, he was minding his business like he should. The PLAYERS are at fault for raping/abusing the woman, not the coach, its not the coaches responsibility to follow the players everywhere to make sure they dont rape anybody, those kids are in COLLEGE, they have no parents and are allowed do what they want, they should take the consequences for their own actions.

Nice sentiment, but under current NCAA rules, incorrect.

The coach has to be held accountable if his players are breaking the rules. If you don't like that, write to the NCAA in Indianapolis.

Besides, his whole "Well, I am backing my player 100%" comment upon being told of the rape accusation is off the wall. If his player is found guilty in court, then what?

Its a sad situation, but since head coaches are given the responsibility for the program, its assistantcoaches, and its players, when thinsg like this happen, he has to stand up and say "While I was unaware of these actions, and did not encourage them, I will find out who is responsible, and work to improve the program. This is my responsibility as a coach." He didn't do that. Instead, he starts moaning about how horrible a player Katie Hnida was, and says that media misquotes him?