Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Vick is a good quarterback

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by silkamilkamonic
    I'm not going to get into the Is Vick good.bad argument, but I have to laugh every time I hear how he "doesn't have weapons around him".

    He has one of the best ground games in the NFL to keep defenses honest. Dunn is no slouch, and even though a good majority of the rushing yards come from Vick, they aren't going to blitz and flush him out of the pocket. That should be an advantage to any QB, unless your name is Jake Plummer, and apparently Michael Vick.

    He has one of the best TE's in the league in Crumpler.

    He has 3 first round draft picks at WR. 1 of those guys has to be good. And say what you want about Ashley, he was a pretty decent WR with PLummer throwing to him, but for whatever reason, Vick can't get him the ball.

    "No talent around Vick" is an absurd argument.
    Actually your wrong, when Vick struggles terribly its because there is no run game
    and the OL doesnt block. During Vick's good games, he had blocking and a good
    run game, he doesnt have that now.Crumpler is good, but even he has dropped
    passes this year. And another lil stat that i find interesting.... Out of all WRs in theNFL that
    have seen 10 passes thrown at them in a catchable way, Atl's WRs are all ranked
    in the last 10% in that catagory.
    Club Leader: Robert Griffin III > Andrew Luck

    ^^^Get used to it.^^^

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by N.O.Bronco
      how you figure, last year he said he wanted to be a more complete QB, by staying in the pocket and throwing, that didn't work. So he got mad and said he wants to play ball his way as he said "go back to playing like when i was in college and just make plays." So the staff devised a scheme to let him run, option, or throw the way he wanted too, still he has not succeded.

      Also out of curiosity not confrontation what do you consider his weaknesses and strengths?

      I think it is so funny, no other quarteback 6 years into the league has had more people defending him when he is playing at this bad of a level passing wise for so long. 95 percent of other teams would bench a guy whos average passer rating is 75.1 in this era of the league, oh but he can run, yes, that has won them some games but not the ones that matter or atleast not consistentlly the ones that matter.
      Now that we can see your just making up stats, how do you get 95% out of 31
      teams? Do you just split a team into sections?

      As we know, Vick is not a west coast system guy. Thats what he doesnt want to
      play, although Mora doesnt use it this year, he still doesnt use a spread or verticle
      passing system that Vick succeeded with in college. Thats what Vick needs.

      He wants the D spread out so he CAN use his cannon of an arm, or so he can
      scramble. When the D is spread or worried about the deep pass they cant blitz
      and put Vick on the run right away.

      Oh and for your "Vick has no accuracy deep" did you know out of the 32 starting QBs
      in the NFL right now he is ranked 11th in completion % and 17th in QB rating out
      of all passes not ruled a DROP?
      Club Leader: Robert Griffin III > Andrew Luck

      ^^^Get used to it.^^^

      Comment


      • #33
        I base my Vick argument on Ashley Lelie, and no, it isn't whether Vick is a good QB or not.

        PLummer didn't have much of a problem getting him the ball, and he isn't exactly a drop back pocket passer.

        As far as the other 2 WR's, I guess they actually do suck.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by GridironChamp
          Dude, i dont care if i get banned for this post because you lack that much football
          knowledge. 1 play, 1 incident doesnt make a player, its how he plays. Your just a
          little HOMER that is is a Jel-ass kid living in NO and your pissed Vick is alot better
          than you want to believe.

          You want specific examples, why is 1 play better than his gameplay style?
          Why is your obvious HOMER opinion mean a damn thing?
          You think your all knowledgable when you just pick out a few plays and dawg on
          them. You forget eveyr play he does fine on, you leave every play that is good, and
          you leave out every neutral play.

          Your not anylizing ****, your just being a homer that is denial. Go suck a lolly-pop
          with your mom.

          what examples have you given to justify you are not the homer? where have YOU ANWSERED A SINGLE ONE OF MY DANG QUESTIONS TO PROVE I AM LYING ABOUT SOMETHING EXCEPT WHEN I VOICE A PURE OPINION. You are plain and simple getting mad without providing any basis for doing so except telling me i don't know what i am talking about. I am not knocking his play style i am knocking that as a passer he stinks provide to me how his play style has been more succesful his way then how every other team passes the ball? Has he won consistentlly? has he been a good leader?

          I have said time and time again he does make some good plays never have i ssaid all his plays suck never not once did i ever say he never makes plays. All i asked was for a debate if all you want to do is attack my credability THEN DONT RESPOND AGAIN. I MADE MY CASE ABOUT HIim, NOW MAKE YOURS AS TO WHY HE IS SO GOOD!!!!!!! read your old posts you have yet to give me 1 you got it 1 single dang example that provides any reason or legitimacy to add to a proper debate until your next post is a such DO NOT RESPOND!!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by GridironChamp
            Now that we can see your just making up stats, how do you get 95% out of 31
            teams? Do you just split a team into sections?

            It was a logical opinion and you damn well know that, so stop acting dumb about it, if you were a coach who posted two straight losing record years and your QB had a completion percentage below sixty, throw right around the same amount of
            ints as tds, and had serious accuracy issues most teams would go with someone else and you know it, and obviouslly his running skills aren't winning them games consistantlly.


            As we know, Vick is not a west coast system guy. Thats what he doesnt want to
            play, although Mora doesnt use it this year, he still doesnt use a spread or verticle
            passing system that Vick succeeded with in college. Thats what Vick needs.

            The spread offense forces vick to go unprotected and make quick decisions with 3 and 4 wide receiver sets and quicker reads and doesnt work well deep bcause the Qb has to little time to let deep plays develop. Yes it may help him run better because there would have to be a nickel or dime package to cover it, but he runs up and down the field now and it doesnt amount to consistent wins. The other problem is the o line is similar to the broncos and imploys a zone blocking scheme that gives up pass protection to better suit itself for run protection. Again you can't imploy a vertical passing game with the emphasis on running the ball like vick asked for, hence more the reason for the zone blocking scheme. vertical passing imploys deep passes something i have told you repeatedlly he is not good at and you insist he is but show me no evidence to support such claims. On top of that in college vick played in a offense such as you mentioned but you forget that in college, systems like that are used more frequentlly because the speed and awareness of defenders is nothing near that on the nfls, vick does not have the accuracy of mcnabb to successfully run a vertical passing game. For instance look at lelie he is arguablly a one trick pony and in atlanta used him as such early on,and still does at times to try and keep the d honest but vick for the most part minus one or two drops by lelie deep has never been able to make it work throwing the ball too him, he throws again far out of reach of lelie, but in denver he was able to put up much better numbers with another bad deep ball thrower, so just give that some thought since vick can't even get lelie deep better then plummer why would a vertical game work for him now?

            He wants the D spread out so he CAN use his cannon of an arm, or so he can
            scramble. When the D is spread or worried about the deep pass they cant blitz
            and put Vick on the run right away.

            But teams arent gonna spread out against him till he makes them and right now sitting in the bottom of league in deep pass completion percentage in fact ranked 34 last year!! come on how can a all out vertical passing game help vick, they use elements of it now he is still near dead last in deep ball completion percentage

            Oh and for your "Vick has no accuracy deep" did you know out of the 32 starting QBs
            in the NFL right now he is ranked 11th in completion % and 17th in QB rating out
            of all passes not ruled a DROP?

            did i not make a post saying pretty much this same thing using my own math and such go back and read. I argue still that considering the way defenses line up to contain him it is pretty sad that he still would be ranked so low compared to most average and good quarterbacks in this league when you realize Ds scheme for his running and dare him to pass and he still can't put up decent numbers

            I would also be curious since you question my knowledge so much where you got that stat from? does that stat take into account all the other qbs who have drops too?
            just to inform you about dropped passes by a team as of right now per nfl.com analyzer pat kirwan and then a fantasy stat tracker philidelphia has the most drops by top 3 lead receivers followed by green bay, miami, tampa, new orleans, new england, dallas, indy, jacksonville, THEN ATLANTA!!! tied also with seattle with a few other teams right at the same level minus 1 to 3 dropped passes. percentage wise only the three big receivers this year have a combined percentage of 12.8 percent dropped passes which ranks well below the eagles 21.4 percent with reggie brown dropping a god awful 25.8 percent of balls thrown his way, you can do this all yourself just divide the receptions by the drops of the players on a team and you can come out with the percentage of plays they drop. also assuming this formula used by fantasy trackers to track the production of a player steve smith came in at 11.3 percent dropped passes, just to give you a gauge of where other receivers stand particularrlly good ones.

            And yes i understand that their is more to receiveing then the stats, routes come in to play etc. But the idea behind yours and many arguments is the receivers are dropping far to many balls. i think it is you who is reading into the headlines to much about the atlanta and having so many drops because when you do the independent research that i hope you will, you should come to the conclusion that maybe you need to look beyond the drops and receivers as vicks problems. Considering he still posts such bad numbers despite only having a slightlly above average drop rate should be of concern. Since i could post a lot of instances where a reciever is just wide open and he over throws the receiver or instances where he cant make an accurate throw most nfl QBs when the receiver has just the right seperation from a defender says something and that something is that he is not a good passer and not very accurate especially deep where his attempt to completion percentage is above the bottom in the nfl comparable to his cousin who was with him at the bottom last year.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by N.O.Bronco
              what examples have you given to justify you are not the homer? where have YOU ANWSERED A SINGLE ONE OF MY DANG QUESTIONS TO PROVE I AM LYING ABOUT SOMETHING EXCEPT WHEN I VOICE A PURE OPINION. You are plain and simple getting mad without providing any basis for doing so except telling me i don't know what i am talking about. I am not knocking his play style i am knocking that as a passer he stinks provide to me how his play style has been more succesful his way then how every other team passes the ball? Has he won consistentlly? has he been a good leader?

              I have said time and time again he does make some good plays never have i ssaid all his plays suck never not once did i ever say he never makes plays. All i asked was for a debate if all you want to do is attack my credability THEN DONT RESPOND AGAIN. I MADE MY CASE ABOUT HIim, NOW MAKE YOURS AS TO WHY HE IS SO GOOD!!!!!!! read your old posts you have yet to give me 1 you got it 1 single dang example that provides any reason or legitimacy to add to a proper debate until your next post is a such DO NOT RESPOND!!
              YOU WANT *** **** 1 PLAYS, IT ISNT ABOUT 1 PLAY ITS ABOUT THE WHOLE DAMN
              GAME, WHAT PART OF THAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND.

              #2 YOUVE MADE A CASE OF NOTHING BESIDES YOU BEING THE BIGGEST HOMER
              EVER.

              #3 I NEVER SAID VICK IS GREAT. GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS YOU INSOLENT FOOL.
              UNTIL YOU CAN UNDERSTAND 1 or 3 PLAYS DOESNT MAKE A FOOTBALL PLAYER
              SHUT UP.



              Your 1 example of Vick throwing a deep ball that he missed a WR by 3 yards left,
              then saying he overthrew him means nothing becaue you dont even know. Plus
              even if you had it correct, that 1 play doesnt hold a candle to his OVERALL deep
              ball stats.
              Last edited by GridironChamp; 11-30-2006, 09:46 AM.
              Club Leader: Robert Griffin III > Andrew Luck

              ^^^Get used to it.^^^

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by N.O.Bronco
                just to inform you about dropped passes by a team as of right now per nfl.com analyzer pat kirwan and then a fantasy stat tracker philidelphia has the most drops by top 3 lead receivers followed by green bay, miami, tampa, new orleans, new england, dallas, indy, jacksonville, THEN ATLANTA!!! tied also with seattle with a few other teams right at the same level minus 1 to 3 dropped passes. percentage wise only the three big receivers this year have a combined percentage of 12.8 percent dropped passes which ranks well below the eagles 21.4 percent with reggie brown dropping a god awful 25.8 percent of balls thrown his way, you can do this all yourself just divide the receptions by the drops of the players on a team and you can come out with the percentage of plays they drop. also assuming this formula used by fantasy trackers to track the production of a player steve smith came in at 11.3 percent dropped passes, just to give you a gauge of where other receivers stand particularrlly good ones.

                And yes i understand that their is more to receiveing then the stats, routes come in to play etc. But the idea behind yours and many arguments is the receivers are dropping far to many balls. i think it is you who is reading into the headlines to much about the atlanta and having so many drops because when you do the independent research that i hope you will, you should come to the conclusion that maybe you need to look beyond the drops and receivers as vicks problems. Considering he still posts such bad numbers despite only having a slightlly above average drop rate should be of concern. Since i could post a lot of instances where a reciever is just wide open and he over throws the receiver or instances where he cant make an accurate throw most nfl QBs when the receiver has just the right seperation from a defender says something and that something is that he is not a good passer and not very accurate especially deep where his attempt to completion percentage is above the bottom in the nfl comparable to his cousin who was with him at the bottom last year.

                As i said in another thread..

                Actually no, i have a nifty lil website i pay for, 5 bucks a month, for all sorts of nifty
                sports info. Problem is, if you post links to pay sites such as this one, they show
                up all goofy and wird. I use it for FF and FB mostly. Thats where this info comes
                from, and no what it proves is that when the game is on the line he wont pass
                because he is selfish.
                Dont mind anything that seems basketball related because i first used this in a B
                ball thread.

                Now, back to your only relative arguement... Vick has not accuracy in a deep ball.
                It was just proven wrong, and get this, not by 1 play like your accostomed to.
                Yes any passes recorded as drops for any player are not included.


                And your percents are slightly altered by this, Philly, NE, INdy, Dallas, GB, and
                probably Miami all have thrown FAR more times.




                EDIT- Guess i shoulda added that Vicks percents and QB rating were for passes
                over 20 yards.
                Last edited by GridironChamp; 11-30-2006, 09:47 AM.
                Club Leader: Robert Griffin III > Andrew Luck

                ^^^Get used to it.^^^

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by GridironChamp
                  YOU WANT *** **** 1 PLAYS, IT ISNT ABOUT 1 PLAY ITS ABOUT THE WHOLE DAMN
                  GAME, WHAT PART OF THAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND.

                  But he is not winning the games based off a multitude of plays like the ones i mentioned what is that YOU cant comprehend, once again give me some sort of basis besides i pay for something so i know what i am talking about!

                  #2 YOUVE MADE A CASE OF NOTHING BESIDES YOU BEING THE BIGGEST HOMER
                  EVER.

                  what is wrong with my case then since you just choose to attack me? What am i a homer of I don't get it, that i dont like vick? I dont have a problem with vick personally i just think that as a qb he has not shown he can be a good or even average passer! You just refuse to proove to me that he is as good as you claim he is, 34th in the league last year at the dep ball and he is fumbling around in the thirties again this year, his short game is shoddy and inaccurate over the LONGTERM(which is what my examples were trying to provide while also showing you that i am watching the games which you still wont anwser how many, and how many times you have seen them) o, and he cant read defenses(hence why he never audibles, tpart of why he almost ahs many ints as tds) very well!


                  #3 I NEVER SAID VICK IS GREAT. GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS YOU INSOLENT FOOL.
                  UNTIL YOU CAN UNDERSTAND 1 or 3 PLAYS DOESNT MAKE A FOOTBALL PLAYER
                  SHUT UP.

                  Isnt that a personal attack and a bannable offense, you call me an insolent fool but all your posts are devoid of anything of substance that give to credence to the argument you are trying to make, just personal attacks as usual with your responses. No 1 or 3 plays dont and i never said they did you just infrenced it that way. Their has to be a reason why he is still at 70ish passer rating and all that crap when all the teams with more drops then ATL have qbs with far better stats in every facet compared to vick, obviouslly as i tried telling you these innaccurate throws are more common then uncommon over a course of a game and why this team has not won more games compared to the teams with more drops who are doing well.


                  Your 1 example of Vick throwing a deep ball that he missed a WR by 3 yards left,
                  then saying he overthrew him means nothing becaue you dont even know. Plus
                  even if you had it correct, that 1 play doesnt hold a candle to his OVERALL deep
                  ball stats.
                  34th ranked last year in deep pass completion percentage:

                  By KC Joyner, ESPN.com
                  .....Ashley Lelie could be just the tonic the doctor ordered for Michael Vick's vertical passing game. Vick ranked tied for 34th in deep pass success percentage in 2005 and already had lost his most effective vertical receiver from 2005, Brian Finneran, to a season-ending injury.......

                  This is one of many snippets you can find by people ranking the best and worst at a given skill over a season but im sure your 5 dollar a month phantom website has this stat too!

                  now considering he is still at the bottom of the league in deep ball completion percentage this year and i already showed you the stats on dropped balls and all that, please either drop this argument or provide somthing besides character attacks to counter my argument please!


                  With lelie a one tick deep threat pony who has only dropped a couple of passes this season suprisinglly only ONE deep it is odd you have any argument to say his deep ball is so great?

                  Please stop attacking me personally and argue with some facts instead of betting mad because you dont understand when i give an example it is an example that repeats itself every game multiple times leading to my conclusions about vicks passing and qb abilities. If i am being insolent and all that you keep calling me why not be the bigger person, as you must think you are with the way you attack me, and find irrefutable proof that makes me look like a fool?(I can already guees how you will try and anwser this and i am laughing now)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    And your percents are slightly altered by this, Philly, NE, INdy, Dallas, GB, and
                    what is it you didn't get from my post even though philly and the like throw more balls the percentage of drops to receptions makes your argument moot, like i said for example philly average a 21 percent of their passes as drops while Atlanta comes in at 12 percnt dropped the same goes for almost all the other teams they are above atl in percentage of balls dropped. my formula as i already explained but you failed to comprehend apparentlly makes what your saying does not make sense, Atlanta even if they are thrown too more would have less drops if you accordinglly added the receptions of all the teams mentioned to an even keel.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SmithOverTO
                      Micheal Vick is a quarterback. Sure, its easy for us to sit back and critque when we dont put on the pads...but until he's listed as a halfback or WR he's a quarterback.
                      But not a quarterback worth starting in the NFL. At least not in any of the offensive systems hes played in.
                      2 of the top 3 NFL QBs of all time have been Broncos

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X