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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutler2007 View Post
    The point of trading Foster and Bell is that they do not represent a bust pick, they had value and that value was Bly. Middlebrooks had value and that value was Engelberger. Portis had value and that value was Champ.

    If you want to make the statements that we do not keep our draft picks around past there rookie deals, well ok, thats something different. Saying that we build a team through FA is just not true because all those guys listed were not FAs.

    Would you really care if we traded Crowder and a 2nd round pick to Chicago for Urlacher? I wouldn't. Does that mean Crowder was a bust? No, he had value, meaning we selected a guy that does have value and that is a good draft pick.
    No, Foster was a bust in Denver. And if Middlebrooks/Engleberger was a first round pick , theyd be a bust. And the fact that we are able to trade RBs for other needs is done to compensate for poor personnel decisions at other positions. If guys like ONeal and Middlebrooks would live up to their pick, we wouldnt have to trade our RB every 2 years.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by lex View Post
    No, Foster was a bust in Denver. And if Middlebrooks/Engleberger was a first round pick , theyd be a bust. And the fact that we are able to trade RBs for other needs is done to compensate for poor personnel decisions at other positions. If guys like ONeal and Middlebrooks would live up to their pick, we wouldnt have to trade our RB every 2 years.
    We just view it differently and thats cool.

    I was just trying to point out that it is not thru FA that we have built our team and I stand by that statement. We may trade away guys we drafted, but that is not FA.

    If those players can be described as a bust is a completely different discussion.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    I'd agree with this right up to the last point. No way should Shanahan fire Bates because the defense hasn't come around yet. The scheme is a very good one and a very similar scheme is working right now for the Vikings (and they have the best run defense in the NFL). It depends on having the right personnel and getting everybody on the same page.

    Perhaps Bates overestimated how quickly his players could adapt and that failure was magnified by the fact that Sam Adams seems washed up and Jimmy Kennedy didn't do anything at all and got cut before the season. Those were two guys Bates was counting on to make contributions.

    Then Gerrard Warren, who might be the most physically talented DT the team had (possibly excepting Marcus Thomas, but we don't know that yet), basically refused to adapt to the new system and forced a trade by his poor play. After he left to put on his usual salary drive for the Raiders, that meant promoting Amon Gordon to starting DT.

    That's not good! Amon Gordon should be a backup at best and Antwon Burton should have been cut. That would have left two huge guys in the middle, Warren and Adams, with Marcus Thomas backing up Adams most of the time, and Burton spelling Warren.

    So, Warren really hurt the team by refusing to get his head in gear.

    Now with McKinley and Thomas playing much bigger roles, hopefully the run defense will improve somewhat. It still won't be great this season, but it can't continue to be the worst in the NFL. Frankly, Adams can only play about 10 plays a game full out, then he gets too gassed and they have to remove him.

    And that's in addition to the Indy game where he didn't even suit up because he couldn't get off the field when Manning went to the no-huddle offense, so Shanahan deactivated him to give him a rest. Obviously it didn't help.

    But, Bates doesn't draft or sign FAs, that's Shanahan's job. So, the fact that the Bronco DTs are underwhelming, isn't Bates's fault.

    The very LAST thing the Broncos should do is fire Bates and abandon the system before it can produce a good pass-rush. That's been the Broncos Achilles-heel for years. Now that they have a great pass-rushing scheme and some good young players to fit into it is no time to abandon ship!

    It might take a year to get this defense to the point where it needs to be. But, if you look at Minnesota's defense, then imagine how good the Vikings defense would be if they had two pro-bowl CBs like Champ Bailey and Dre Bly.

    When this defense finally comes together, they have the chance to be up there with the all time great NFL defenses, like the 2000 Ravens. But, it's going to take some work.

    P.S.: Further proof, if further proof were needed, that the instant draft pundits are always wrong is the criticism given to the Texans for drafting Mario Williams instead of Reggie Bush! When Bush had a better rookie year, and Williams struggled early in his starting job, the idiots all said that Kubiak made a huge mistake.

    They're having to eat their words now that Bush is looking like he'll never be an every down back, but merely the most expensive "change of pace" backup RB in NFL history, while Williams is starting to learn how to be a dominating NFL DL.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________

    Maybe you should marry him (Bates)

    What a homer.

    For God sakes, they ran Collier out of here because his system was too complex, what do you think this moron is doing ?

    I saw the game, the players just don't get it.

    The man has had two good years, thats it !!

    He sucks, period.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutler2007 View Post
    Offense:

    Cutler
    Sapp
    Bell
    Young
    Marshall
    Walker
    Scheffler
    Jackson
    Pears
    Lepsis
    Kuper
    Myers
    Harris

    Defense:

    Engleberger
    Elvis
    Moss
    Thomas
    Crowder
    DJ
    Gold
    Champ
    Bly
    Foxworth
    Paymah
    Shoate
    Green
    Cox

    ST:

    Elam
    Leach

    These are all players drafted or acquired by trading a draftee or draft pick.

    Basically I think you are way off on building a team via free agency.
    what I was pointing to is the draft. When I say Free Agency I was really thinking anything but the draft. The Broncos have been known to make some high profile trades as of late also.
    To get it clear, the Broncos' best players were aquired by trade or free agency. How could you build a team when you aquire your core from other teams and draft fillers? I thought FA was for fillers and you build your team from the draft. The most successful dynasties in NFL history got their players from the draft or groomed them from the beginning of their career. The best player on your team that the Broncos have on their roster that they drafted is Brandon Marshall and you could argue that he's their slot back. I'm sorry but that's pathetic.
    I'm not trying to turn this into a smack forum but look at the drafted players on your roster. I do love last years draft class though. I think that Shanny is straying away from the "all-or-nothing" draftees and reaching on players and trying to focus on proven players with the most skills not potential. I also think the cockiness of Shanny's running game has killed him. A misconception of throwing ANYONE in the backfield and getting a 1000 yds has really killed them. He's neglected the running game and OLine for a few years now and it's now starting to show it's ugly face. Imagine how great your running game would have been with Henry and a few first day draft picks on your OLine. I GUARANTEE you'de be tops in the league and Cutler would be looking like a future pro bowler like he should be. Ifs and buts are subjective though.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoJo Chargerfan View Post
    what I was pointing to is the draft. When I say Free Agency I was really thinking anything but the draft. The Broncos have been known to make some high profile trades as of late also.
    To get it clear, the Broncos' best players were aquired by trade or free agency. How could you build a team when you aquire your core from other teams and draft fillers? I thought FA was for fillers and you build your team from the draft. The most successful dynasties in NFL history got their players from the draft or groomed them from the beginning of their career. The best player on your team that the Broncos have on their roster that they drafted is Brandon Marshall and you could argue that he's their slot back. I'm sorry but that's pathetic.
    I'm not trying to turn this into a smack forum but look at the drafted players on your roster. I do love last years draft class though. I think that Shanny is straying away from the "all-or-nothing" draftees and reaching on players and trying to focus on proven players with the most skills not potential. I also think the cockiness of Shanny's running game has killed him. A misconception of throwing ANYONE in the backfield and getting a 1000 yds has really killed them. He's neglected the running game and OLine for a few years now and it's now starting to show it's ugly face. Imagine how great your running game would have been with Henry and a few first day draft picks on your OLine. I GUARANTEE you'de be tops in the league and Cutler would be looking like a future pro bowler like he should be. Ifs and buts are subjective though.
    I do not think most top rated Olineman fit the zone blocking scheme we run. It would be like trying to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The ones that do are usually top 15 type guys and we do not draft there. If Thomas was on the board at 17, I think Shanny would have taken him in a heartbeat. 325 lb guys that run a 4.9 are not that common.

    I have no problem admitting that we have had some awful draft picks, but I do not think just because the ones that were traded instead of kept around were bad picks. Without the guys traded away we don't have the other guys.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutler2007 View Post
    I do not think most top rated Olineman fit the zone blocking scheme we run. It would be like trying to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The ones that do are usually top 15 type guys and we do not draft there. If Thomas was on the board at 17, I think Shanny would have taken him in a heartbeat. 325 lb guys that run a 4.9 are not that common.

    I have no problem admitting that we have had some awful draft picks, but I do not think just because the ones that were traded instead of kept around were bad picks. Without the guys traded away we don't have the other guys.
    well, i compare the zone blocking scheme with the Pats a few years ago. The Pats had their picks of the litter when it came to tweener OLB/DE's in the draft. Since more teams are running the 3-4 the Pats don't have that luxary anymore. The Broncos were the only teams in the league at one point that ran a zone blocking scheme and now there's a handful of teams that run it. This means that the Broncos don't get the best zone blocking OLinemen anymore. It's a really watered down pool. So now the Broncos have to draft the players they want and groom them to be players they want to be. Unfortunatly the Broncos have neglected the Oline and now the vets are starting to get hurt and the lack of depth is showing its true colors.
    Also, since a few teams are running the zone scheme more defensive cordinators are starting to get wise on how to defend it.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoJo Chargerfan View Post
    well, i compare the zone blocking scheme with the Pats a few years ago. The Pats had their picks of the litter when it came to tweener OLB/DE's in the draft. Since more teams are running the 3-4 the Pats don't have that luxary anymore. The Broncos were the only teams in the league at one point that ran a zone blocking scheme and now there's a handful of teams that run it. This means that the Broncos don't get the best zone blocking OLinemen anymore. It's a really watered down pool. So now the Broncos have to draft the players they want and groom them to be players they want to be. Unfortunatly the Broncos have neglected the Oline and now the vets are starting to get hurt and the lack of depth is showing its true colors.
    Also, since a few teams are running the zone scheme more defensive cordinators are starting to get wise on how to defend it.
    I do not think they have had a chance to show anything yet, Good or Bad. Myers has done a very good job at LG and may be a better C.

    This is an oline that has given up only 6 sack (8th in NFL) and is averaging 4.8 ypc rushing (3rd in NFL). Oline may be the least of our concerns at the moment.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoJo Chargerfan View Post
    well, i compare the zone blocking scheme with the Pats a few years ago. The Pats had their picks of the litter when it came to tweener OLB/DE's in the draft. Since more teams are running the 3-4 the Pats don't have that luxary anymore. The Broncos were the only teams in the league at one point that ran a zone blocking scheme and now there's a handful of teams that run it. This means that the Broncos don't get the best zone blocking OLinemen anymore. It's a really watered down pool. So now the Broncos have to draft the players they want and groom them to be players they want to be. Unfortunatly the Broncos have neglected the Oline and now the vets are starting to get hurt and the lack of depth is showing its true colors.
    Also, since a few teams are running the zone scheme more defensive cordinators are starting to get wise on how to defend it.
    We'll see this upcoming game and for the rest of the season. Cuper starts at G, Myers at center.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutler2007 View Post
    I do not think they have had a chance to show anything yet, Good or Bad. Myers has done a very good job at LG and may be a better C.

    This is an oline that has given up only 6 sack (8th in NFL) and is averaging 4.8 ypc rushing (3rd in NFL). Oline may be the least of our concerns at the moment.
    Well, I'm not denying that they're good and, not saying they're dog crap, the Broncos have a way of turning dog crap into gold on the OL. But I wonder what the Broncos would change gold into. I really thought that Tony Ugoh would have been a great pickup for the Broncos in this years first round but the Broncos just don't have good luck with OL in the first round. Plus, they get enamored with the physicality and size of OL in the draft and they tend to draft outside their scheme, see Foster. All I'm saying is Ugoh would have been phenominal as a Bronco and the Broncos reached on another undersized DE that they didn't necessarily need. The frustrating thing about failed drafts is looking at the players after your selection and you wonder what could have been.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cugel View Post
    What has that got to do with Shanahan's current drafting ability? Nothing. He can be criticized for the 1999-2003 drafts. So can a lot of teams. That's pretty much irrelevant at this point, since he coached the team to the AFC Championship in 2005. That means that whatever deficiencies the draft had up to that point, he'd overcome them.



    If you make ridiculous posts that aren't supported by logic or reason you will be criticized. Get used to it.



    The idiots in the media always talk about Maurice Clarett. That's what proves they are idiots, and cannot be used to support an argument that Shanahan is a terrible drafter. Maurice Clarett was a high profile pick that didn't work out. But, he was the last pick of the 3rd round, a supplemental pick that wasn't even one of the Broncos original picks.

    Basically he was equal to a 4th rounder. Big deal.

    And the Broncos didn't have a 4th or 5th round pick and knew that the Cowboys intended to draft Clarett with their 4th round pick, so if Shanahan wanted him he had to use his last of the 3rd round pick for him. Partly because that pick was the last pick of the day it got a lot more publicity.

    And then when Clarett bombed and was cut everybody who'd criticized the pick let loose. But, not one of them would have said anything but "Shanahan's a genius" if Clarett had gotten his butt in gear and made the team!

    He had talent enough to be a RB in the NFL. He just didn't have his head on straight. It was a risk, but frankly, so what? Do you even know what players the Broncos could have taken who would have been that great? Not many standouts in the 4th round!

    If you can't come up with any better arguments than that, you deserve to have everybody "jump down your throat."

    Is that you in the St. Louis Cardinals shirt in your sig

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR3Y View Post
    Is that you in the St. Louis Cardinals shirt in your sig
    If that's the best response you can make, I'd say I win the argument by default.

    Aside from pointless ranting there wasn't much to your post in the first place. I refuted it point by point. You've failed to respond with logic.

    Case closed.
    http://www.fbpages.me/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/159174168050152087_zRr4orMC_c.jpg

  12. #72
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    I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by TR3Y View Post
    Let's see....

    ~ Marcus Nash

    ~ Willie Middlebrooks

    ~ Ashley Lelie

    ~ George Foster

    What do all of these men have in common??? Only Shanahan had the brains - or lack thereof - to take these 4 players in the 1st round Where are they all now???

    Not to mention the thrown away 3rd rounder - total waste of a draft pick - that Shanny used to take Clarett

    I realize that many teams prolly have similar busts, but are they as common as they are for Shanny and the Broncos???

    I am a homer if ever there was one....however, I am already looking forward to the upcoming draft....I was preaching all off-season that the Broncos needed to go out and get a top notch ROOKIE running back (Adrian Peterson, MarShawn Lynch) and plug them into our zone blocking system and all off-season I got flamed because we needed D-Line help (which we certainly did)....but we traded up to get Jarvis Moss....why not trade up to get A.P. But instead we go out and get a RB that has all the skills the Broncos need to suceed in our running scheme, but he has off the field issues and is facing a year long suspension!!!!

    Oh yeah, looks like the top paid TE in the league is really paying dividends for the Broncos!! Graham has done pretty much NOTHING in 5 games.....Scheffler has had more of an impact in his two games since he has returned!!!

    The Browncos fiasco!!!

    I LOVE the Broncos and always will, but I really believe that some serious changes need to be made, ie, maybe time to look for a new coach, or, let Shanny focus on coaching only and hire someone to be the GM!!!

    Oh well....the last draft is in the past....time to look forward to the next draft because the Broncos season in over 5 weeks in

    Let the flaming begin
    Our draft picks have been lame and I wish someone would really start to take a serious look at Shanahan and ask what the hell is wrong? Desperation doesn't = wins...
    Last edited by dgosseli; 10-13-2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason: spelling error

  13. #73
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    This little factoid is truely pathetic!!!


    "Consider: Second-year Green Bay coach Mike McCarthy has more of his own draft choices on the Packers' roster than Denver's Mike Shanahan claims on the Broncos' roster after 13 drafts with the organization."


    Seriously, every time I read this, it pisses me off more and more.


    That is the definition of pathetic drafting.

    I've laid off criticizing Shanahan's drafts because of the Cutler/Scheffler/Marshall draft and the DL draft, but this is beyond pathetic...

  14. #74
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    Hindsight is 20/20....at least we didn't draft Ryan Leaf.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zealander View Post
    Well how about last, year... and this years. Last year we ended up with Cutler, Dumerville, Marshall and Mike Bell..... Not bad eh?

    This year Shanahan set up a future Dline Dynasty and a steal in Marcus Thomas. Watch, three years down the line these past two years draft is really going to be apparent.
    I'd say by far this year's draft is Shanahan's best!

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